GO GO Juice on the rise - RV-Dreams Community Forum

ersanta · RV-Dreams Family Member

GO GO Juice on the rise

Terry and Jo · RV-Dreams Family Member

In addition to stocks-on-hand and customer demand, oil prices are also affected because oil is sold on the "commodity market." Having been in agriculture (another industry affected by "futures" buying), I am not surprised that prices are rising, especially considering the upheavals in the Middle East. That sort of activity makes "futures" kind of iffy because the commodity buyers are constantly worried that if someone in the Middle East gets the sniffles, then things go up.

Actually, I expect that we will see increased prices on a lot of the products we buy. I've read stories lately of clothing and food prices going up, just to name a couple.

If we want to reduce the volatility of the oil prices, I think we really need to be developing and drilling more in our own areas. I remember that back in the late 70's, the Energy Department was started because we were dependent on something less that 30% of our oil coming from foreign sources. Now, the foreign sourced oil is closer to 70%. So, it appears that the Energy Department was no help at all in reducing our dependence on foreign oil.

Terry

53 Merc · RV-Dreams Family Member

Terry and Jo wrote:

In addition to stocks-on-hand and customer demand, oil prices are also affected because oil is sold on the "commodity market." Having been in agriculture (another industry affected by "futures" buying), I am not surprised that prices are rising, especially considering the upheavals in the Middle East. That sort of activity makes "futures" kind of iffy because the commodity buyers are constantly worried that if someone in the Middle East gets the sniffles, then things go up.

Actually, I expect that we will see increased prices on a lot of the products we buy. I've read stories lately of clothing and food prices going up, just to name a couple.

If we want to reduce the volatility of the oil prices, I think we really need to be developing and drilling more in our own areas. I remember that back in the late 70's, the Energy Department was started because we were dependent on something less that 30% of our oil coming from foreign sources. Now, the foreign sourced oil is closer to 70%. So, it appears that the Energy Department was no help at all in reducing our dependence on foreign oil.

Terry

Yup, the Okie got it right again. Develop our own resources first. Like most gov't departments, all Energy does is muddy the waters and fail in any of their objectives.

Like you, I certainly see our overall costs increasing. Like it or not, our economy is tied to the cost of fuel. Fuel to me is defined as anything burned or consumed to produce another commodity. That makes coal, diesel, heating oil, gasoline, natural gas, etc., a fuel.

Farmers can't produce without fuel and fertilizers, trucks use fuels to deliver, supermarkets use fuel to store and prepare foods, nothing is made or produced without using some form of fuel. It would take hours and pages to list all aspects of oil in our daily lives, each of which we can expect to increase in price as the cost of oil goes up following the commodity traders.

Like you, I want to see us increase development of proven resources in the US. Forget wind power and solar, neither are viable without governmental subsidies and tax relief. Ethanol is the largest boondoggle ever. It has finally reached the point that it is energy neutral, in that it does not require more energy to produce than it yields. (Unless of course, you then figure in the cost of corn delivery and ethanol distribution. Then it ain't neutral). Our sainted EPA has put more and more roadblocks in front of energy development in our own country. Dept of Interior has made lease purchases more onerous and more expensive. obama has ceased all exploration in the Gulf Of Mexico, although China is drilling within 60 miles of the US. Rationilize that if you can?

Our national debt is influencing prices as well. Printing more money just reduces the purchasing power of the money we have on hand. Makes one ill to consider where we are, and where we are pointed.

Terry and Jo · RV-Dreams Family Member

Yep, Ken.

It's time to close ineffective government like the EPA, Energy, and the federal Education departments and scale back all the others. Then explore and drill and develop our own new resources. Most of those would be in new oil exploration like shale for instance.

I also agree on the solar and wind. If it was of any value at all, it wouldn't need to be subsidized. In fact, from my way of thinking, the only thing we need to subsidize is agriculture because that is providing our food. With the population always going up, the government always taking more land out of effective production, and farmers getting fewer, that industry needs all the help it can get so it can continue to feed the growing population.

Terry

Melstar · RV-Dreams Family Member

I am feeling the need the need to write a blog...so much I'd like to say in agreement to this thread!

Pinon · RV-Dreams Family Member

I agree that gas getting more expensive is very annoying. I am trying to think of how to politely and respectfully say that I completely disagree with the rest of the political opinions on this subject.
This is an impressive reminder to me on how good this forum is, and how much I respect and like all the previous posters. We will agree to disagree.
Heidi

53 Merc · RV-Dreams Family Member

Gee, Pinon, I am a loss to understand how you call our posts political? All the information I posted are known fact, (well, maybe that most gov't departments are useless). Like you, I understand the forum is one of the most civil on the web.

I, for one, am always interested and able to learn. However, you must understand, my information is extracted from over 55 years working in the oil industry, and 15 years before that being supported by the oil industry (my dad was a driller and manager).

I notice from your profile you are located in New Mexico. I do know many sections of NM are heavily involved in oil and gas. Is your background in the industry?

Perhaps you could tell us where we are incorrect?

53 Merc · RV-Dreams Family Member

Terry and Jo wrote:

Yep, Ken.

Most of those would be in new oil exploration like shale for instance.
Terry

Terry, once again we are on the same page, except on the shale issue. Only if you are talking about the Bakken Shale in SD, NEB, and some in WY. That formation will yield itself to produce oil in an economical manner.

However, the Naval Oil Shale Reserve in CO and UT ain't it. I spent 10 years of my life trying to extract oil from that formation. Man, talk about make a Christian lose all his possibility of salvation. That place really put a strain on my moral character. We finally made the facility work, it just was not feasible, and the company shut it down.

Racerguy · RV-Dreams Family Member

Ken, were you in the Parachute area? From what I understand the shale was plentiful but so hard to extract that it wasn't cost effective.Am I correct in that? Right now in my former home town area they are punching a lot of wells in the Niobrara formation that is also rich in natural gas.Have a friend who quit the gas company to go back to being a Driller to make money while he can.He said there is an abundance of work right now.

Delaine and Lindy · RV-Dreams Family Member

Terry I agree 100%, I worked 15 years in Washington, DC. I have seen first hand how inefficient those Departments are. I to have to be very careful about what I say, I sometimes let my beliefs out. There is so much Oil in America we have no need of Foreign Oil. As someone else said Shale is big, as is in Canada.

Unfortunately as before we are being forced toward electric cars, which didn't work then. It will only work if the price of Gas/Diesel goes over $5.00 + a gallon. And we all know what happened the last time Gas/Diesel went to $4.00 a gallon. It all but destroyed the RV industry. And its a fact it will cost more to support the Electricity for cars. But take a look at GE, they will make out like bandits if America is forced into Electric Cars.... Natural Gas is also very much the future........ We need to use more Common Sense......

Terry and Jo · RV-Dreams Family Member

Like Ken, my intent was not to be political with my comments. They were based on factual information which can certainly be found. Government entities, other than perhaps electrical generation via hydro-electric plants, never run any kind of profit. If anything, they are a leach off of the private industry and our citizens.

If anyone is interested, I am preparing to start a "sort-of" dissertation on my blog as to the nature of government and it horrific effect on education. In a previous period of my life, I was elected to the School Board in the Oklahoma Panhandle. Man, what an education that was. My blog post will show how heavily the government has acquired land in America and the effect that has created.

In addition, there was a recent news article I read that told of one federal government agency leaving the lights on in its Washington, D.C. headquarters building all the time. The article indicated that the agency's electric bill was $1,000,000 (yep, that's one million dollars) PER MONTH.

Hybrid vehicles take many years to pay for themselves with their fuel savings, electric cars can't get enough miles to be beneficial, and both have large batteries that are dangerous in an accident plus very expensive to replace. Emergency personnel such as firemen and paramedics have to have additional training for responding to an accident involving either of the so-called "green cars."

As for the moratorium on drilling in the Gulf, a federal judge ruled that as unconstitutional, but the energy department achieves the same kind of effect by simply not providing any permits to drill in that area to the oil companies. So, the issue was made political a long time ago.

Terry

Melstar · RV-Dreams Family Member

Thank you Terry! The silence can stand no more or we will not have a country to enjoy and explore and in which to live and travel. People need to wise up, get educated in the real facts and not just want the "other" media tries to sell. We are in trouble and elections have consequences....big ones!

53 Merc · RV-Dreams Family Member

Racerguy wrote:

Ken, were you in the Parachute area? From what I understand the shale was plentiful but so hard to extract that it wasn't cost effective.Am I correct in that? Right now in my former home town area they are punching a lot of wells in the Niobrara formation that is also rich in natural gas.Have a friend who quit the gas company to go back to being a Driller to make money while he can.He said there is an abundance of work right now.

Yessir, north of Parachute 12 miles, then on side of the mountain known as Long Ridge. The shale was assayed at 50 gallons per ton, We processed 9600 tons per day (if we could operate a whole day). Only problem was, we only recovered at best 75 percent. Wear was terrible, so maintenance was VERY expensive. Design was bad and not able to be controlled with any finesse. Had to control and manage with a sledge hammer. We made it work, but I think it was only because we were too stupid to know we couldn't.
After we left the area, they started drilling in the area for nat gas. One year they had over 1500 drilling permits in Garfield county alone. They have gas production all over the area now.

Pinon · RV-Dreams Family Member

Hi guys! I am not involved in the industry, however I think this is an American issue, not an oil issue, so I will comment on it anyway. I agree you guys who have worked in the industry have a lot more knowledge than I do about where and how to extract oil and refine it, but I am commenting on the politcs (and man - there is some!) And so, since you told me you were speaking fact and not opinion:

Terry and Jo wrote:

It's time to close ineffective government like the EPA, Energy, and the federal Education departments and scale back all the others. Then explore and drill and develop our own new resources.

You have to admit this is an opinion!    I think the EPA, energy, and education depts need to be stronger. I think the last thing we need to do is destroy more of our country's amazing wild spaces looking for oil. I am not trying to convince you, just pointing out we both have opinions, and they are very political in nature. These opinions come from a whole world view including what the role of government is, what are priorities are, and what we believe the future will look like.

I also agree on the solar and wind. If it was of any value at all, it wouldn't need to be subsidized.

   While your agreeing is a fact, your next sentence is an opinion. New technologies often require subsidizing, and it is definitely in our interest to do so (my opinion   Besides we subsidize the oil and gas companies! At a time when the 5 most profitable companies in the world are oil and gas companies.  Unless you believe tax cuts don't equal subsidies. I sure do.

In fact, from my way of thinking, the only thing we need to subsidize is agriculture because that is providing our food. With the population always going up, the government always taking more land out of effective production, and farmers getting fewer, that industry needs all the help it can get so it can continue to feed the growing population.

   This one is opinion and fact.   Yes, population is going up, and farmers are fewer. However,  the way we subsidize agriculture is so toxic to the small farmer and the consumer I am not sure we should continue it.
  We subsidize grains, then subsidize again by buying them for our schools where the lunches are required to have 2 grain foods at every meal (for 6 year olds!) then we create a ridiculous food pyramid based on the idea we need to eat 6-11 servings of grains (which is ridiculous nutritionally and is a type of subsidy) to get Americans to eat more grains  then we feed them to livestock which makes them less healthy to eat (the whole super e-coli infections from eating grains instead of grass, and the unhealthy omega 3 to omega 6 ratios in their fat which causes inflammation in the consumer which causes heart disease, obesity, diabetes, arthritis, etc ) b/c there is no pasture land for them b/c the land is growing grains. Then we put corn syrup in almost every food we can buy (b/c it is cheap, b/c it is subsidized.)    I could go on and on.

The main jist of this whole discussion is that we should drill more in the US, and alternative energies shouldn't be used. Those aren't facts! The US exports oil. Not any where near what it imports of course, but just b/c it came from Texas doesn't mean Americans get to use it. We don't have first dibs on oil from the US - it belongs to the international corporation who pulled it out of the ground, and if prices go up in the middle east, they will go up here. B/c if they can sell that Texas oil for more money in Britain, they will. These aren't US companies doing you or this country a favor. We are selling our resources to foriegn companies and they do what they want with them. Merc - I actually agree with a lot of what you say, we just draw very different conclusions.
Heidi

-- Edited by Pinon on Saturday 19th of February 2011 12:07:58 PM

53 Merc · RV-Dreams Family Member

Well, just a few observations and then I am done with this. Just how much power is generated from the solar arrays after sundown? What replaces the solar power generation after sundown? Yep, the nat gas, coal and oil generation facilities that have been in hot standby while the heavily subsidized solar arrays were used. Make sense? Not really. Same comments are true for the vaunted wind power. You have to have (read MUST) fossil fuel power generation as backup to when the others are not operating. A recent presentation from an electric guru to our local co-op said that wind power is 10% reliable. He also said there will be rolling brown-outs in Texas in 2012.

Another observation is when are we going to realize we need to build more nuclear power generation capabilities? France is 70% reliant on nuclear power generation. How is it they can do it and we can't?

When was the last refinery permitted in the US? We have built no refining capacity in the Us for over 35 years. Make sense? Not really.

As far as TX oil going to the UK, I can just chuckle. Ain't a happening thing. Yes, some companies have roots in other countries, no, they are not exporting oil from the US, and also, they have established US corporations to deal with all the laws and regulations.

Of all the gov't departments that need more authority, EPA ain't one of them. When congress refused to give them authority to regulate (read tax) CO2, they said, well we will just pass rules limiting the amount of CO2 a company can release. The fact that CO2 has not been proven detrimental is beside the issue. All humans should be banned because they release CO2 at every breath. Let's get rid of all the cattle, lions, zebras, dogs, cats and other mammals because they release CO2. OOPs, that will cause the trees and grass to die because they depend on CO2 as part of their life. Rats, it just goes on.

One fact that is irrefutable, the US uses more energy of all forms (except nuke) than any other country. Where does it make sense that we import 70% of our oil and cannot drill in the GOM because Interior will not permit drilling? Why can we not drill in our own country? Yeah, there is minimal environmental damage when we drill here, but which is worse, sending money to the middle east or having jobs in the US to generate tax revenue from worker's wages? One job direct to the oil industry generates about 15 other jobs to support that job.

Yeah, like you said, we will agree to disagree, but until people wear nothing but wool that is totally organic, and are totally independent of all use of oil and gas, they should not cast stones. And, the candle to light their homes will have to be from beeswax or tallow, because even kerosene will not be available to them. Tools will have to be stone, because fossil fuels are used to make steel.

OK, I am done with my rant, the soapbox is open to somebody else.

Pinon · RV-Dreams Family Member

I'll respond also, then I'll be done too. I chopped up your quotes a little for brevity, but I tried to not mangle anything.
53 Merc wrote:
Yeah, like you said, we will agree to disagree, but until people wear nothing but wool that is totally organic, and are totally independent of all use of oil and gas, they should not cast stones.

I don't think I was casting stones. I believe I can be a user of petroleum products, support some drilling and not others. Protect some areas and drill in others. Believe in some gov't regulation and believe in capitalism at the same time. I see the world in shades of gray, not so black and white.
Just how much power is generated from the solar arrays after sundown? ... Same comments are true for the vaunted wind power. You have to have (read MUST) fossil fuel power generation as backup to when the others are not operating. A recent presentation from an electric guru to our local co-op said that wind power is 10% reliable. He also said there will be rolling brown-outs in Texas in 2012.

Your argument against solar is that it doesn't work when it is dark? And wind power doesn't work when it isn't windy? I never said we needed to get rid of all fossil fuel power generation. At least I hope I didn't - that would be ridiculous. We have a bigger need for fuel than we have
supply. Why not use alternative forms when we can and conventional when we have to. That would help with those brown-outs! It is a fact that there is a finite supply of fossil fuels. I certainly don't know the amount, it may be huge. Probably not, but it could be. But why be in such a hurry to exhaust what we have and not look into perfecting other alternatives?

Another observation is when are we going to realize we need to build more nuclear power generation capabilities? France is 70% reliant on nuclear power generation. How is it they can do it and we can't?

I don't have a strong opinion on this. I suspect nuclear power is not so bad.

As far as TX oil going to the UK, I can just chuckle. Ain't a happening thing. Yes, some companies have roots in other countries, no, they are not exporting oil from the US

While you were laughing at me I went ahead and looked it up - per the US Energy Information Administration www.eia.gov the US exported 738,803 thousand barrels to other countries in 2009. (Last year I could easily find the info for.)

I suspect you are arguing with someone Fox News (or someone else) told you I was - not me. I understand - in the same exact way I have to remind myself you are Merc, and not some generic Conservative. I was raised Libertarian, and I understand pretty well (I hope) the philosophical world view behind your beliefs. Understand it, respect it (sometimes), respect your right to have it (always) but do not share it.

And this is the whole point behind my original comment: It is vitally important to know the difference btwn our own opinions and facts, because when we believe our opinions to be facts, then anyone who disagrees with us is either stupid or evil. And who wants to be friends with someone who is stupid or evil.
Heidi

charles · RV-Dreams Family Member

We live on the Gulf Coast.
Have you noticed that the Obama admin has not issued a deep water drillting permit since last april?
About %30 of the US supply of energy comes from the Gulf-----do the math.

A Federal judge has held Salazar in contempt of court and he has still not issued a permit.
I am an atty by profession and this non compliance with the law is astounding to me.
A good portion of the following is the result of energy policy or I should say the lack thereof.
Everything and I mean everything hinges on ENERGY and the cost thereof.
__________________________________________________________________________

Just some results in the past 2 yrs.

January 2009 TODAY % chg Source
Avg. retail price/gallon gas in U.S. $1.83 $3.104 69.6% 1
Crude oil, European Brent (barrel) $43.48 $99.02 127.7% 2
Crude oil, West TX Inter. (barrel) $38.74 $91.38 135.9% 2
Gold: London (per troy oz.) $853.25 $1,369.50 60.5% 2
Corn, No.2 yellow, Central IL $3.56 $6.33 78.1% 2
Soybeans, No. 1 yellow, IL $9.66 $13.75 42.3% 2
Sugar, cane, raw, world, lb. fob $13.37 $35.39 164.7% 2
Unemployment rate, non-farm, overall 7.6% 9.4% 23.7% 3
Unemployment rate, blacks 12.6% 15.8% 25.4% 3
Number of unemployed 11,616,000 14,485,000 24.7% 3
Number of fed. employees, ex. military (curr = 12/10 prelim) 2,779,000 2,840,000 2.2% 3
Real median household income (2008 v 2009) $50,112 $49,777 -0.7% 4
Number of food stamp recipients (curr = 10/10) 31,983,716 43,200,878 35.1% 5
Number of unemployment benefit recipients (curr = 12/10) 7,526,598 9,193,838 22.2% 6
Number of long-term unemployed 2,600,000 6,400,000 146.2% 3
Poverty rate, individuals (2008 v 2009) 13.2% 14.3% 8.3% 4
People in poverty in U.S. (2008 v 2009) 39,800,000 43,600,000 9.5% 4
U.S. rank in Economic Freedom World Rankings 5 9 n/a 10
Present Situation Index (curr = 12/10) 29.9 23.5 -21.4% 11
Failed banks (curr = 2010 + 2011 to date) 140 164 17.1% 12
U.S. dollar versus Japanese yen exchange rate 89.76 82.03 -8.6% 2
U.S. money supply, M1, in billions (curr = 12/10 prelim) 1,575.1 1,865.7 18.4% 13
U.S. money supply, M2, in billions (curr = 12/10 prelim) 8,310.9 8,852.3 6.5% 13
National debt, in trillions $10.627 $14.052 32.2% 14

Terry and Jo · RV-Dreams Family Member

I started to post some more comments on the above topics, but it ran too long for me to be comfortable for allowing it to expand Howard and Linda's bandwidth. (Or whatever that means about bandwidth. That stuff I don't even try to understand.)

However, I will post the comments written on my blog. So, if anyone cares to know what I had to say, you can check it there.

Terry

TxYellowRose · RV-Dreams Family Member

All I will say on this subject is that, yes, we have noticed diesel prices bouncing all over the place, mainly upwards, as we have traveled north this past week.

The high cost of diesel is one of the reasons we have taken the security gig so we will not be traveling as much . . . sitting in one place for several months. Of course, it's a good job and we enjoy it, so overall it's a win-win situation.

smile

janni · RV-Dreams Family Member

Yes, we are seeing those prices go up. Drove to California the other day and higher there than Arizona. Nothing political to say.......just that the Bakken shale in North Dakota is going to be followed with oil being found also in the Three Forks Sanish. Oil companies are drilling horizontally now and also setting pads to use for reentry. This discovery is huge!

bonnie and clyde · RV-Dreams Family Member

We have been in Venice Beach, Florida for 10 days, and diesel has gone from $3.49 to $3.65 in that time. It does make us think about how to manage the expense of diesel and our wanting this lifestyle on a budget. Best to all.