Hello, I'm brand new to this forum and wondering is there anyone that tows a 5th with a SRW?! We have a 2018 JAYCO North Point (315) on order. We decided to purchase a 2017 RAM 3500/Aisin/6.7 Cummins/Air Bag Suspension as our tow vehicle after talking to several seasoned 5ers. Our 5th will gross out at about 13,900 to 14,200..........we never travel with all our worldly possessions nor do we boon dock. The first thing I did when purchasing the RAM was to swap out the stock Firestone tires with Michelin Defender LTX M/S...........just have always preferred Michelin. I need some comforting or honest criticism from this forum. Always owned motor homes......this is our first 5er.
RonC said
07:10 PM Mar 20, 2018
Since you’ve already bought both ... it’s pretty academic, but the answer to your question is yes ... there are many people who tow 5th wheels with SRW drive trucks. It is a very different question to ask “should they tow a 14,000 lbs 5th wheel with a SRW truck”. There is much more to this discussion, but you didn’t ask about that. Be careful and stay safe.
Danny and Cheryl said
06:53 AM Mar 21, 2018
A DRW would be much more stable towing but you can tow with the SRW, just don't be surprised when you feel the rear of your truck swaying or moving under load. I would not be surprised if you aren't over loaded on the rear axel with the SRW and air ride. good luck with your new RAM I love mine
Cummins12V98 said
09:08 AM Mar 21, 2018
GREAT CHOICE!!! AISIN is top dog along with Cummins, true Medium Duty. The Factory Rear air Ride is GREAT as I haul at 9,750# full RAWR all the time trouble free.
Good call on the Defenders I did the same with 200 miles on my Dually.
14k loaded is absolutely within that trucks capabilities.
You don't say long or short bed??? Either way I hope your truck has the 5er prep.
KRUEBBE22 said
11:42 AM Mar 21, 2018
Thanks so much for your replies. If need be I'll suck up the loss and go to a DRW. We take delivery on the 5er the end of April. Plan on a shake down trip as soon as we pick it up. If I experience any uncomfortable problems, I will make the switch. Short of actually weighing, since we do not have the 5er yet, I've tried looking at several calculations given to see if I'm overloaded and to be frank, I seem to not quite grasp exactly what figures they are looking for. Here are some very accurate stats on both the RAM & the 5er. If any of you can shed some light I would appreciate it.
RAM: GVWR: 11,700# Base Weight: 7,775# Payload: 3,920# GAWR Rear: 7,000# GCWR: 25,300# Actual Cargo: 806# (Passengers, fuel, hitch)
JAYCO North Point: Unloaded Weight: 12,405# Actual Cargo (Everything has been weighed): 853# GVWR: 15,250# Actual Loaded Weight: 13,258#
I should add it's a short box with a Pullrite Super Slider hitch.
-- Edited by KRUEBBE22 on Wednesday 21st of March 2018 11:44:22 AM
Cyride said
02:28 PM Mar 21, 2018
Since your last post which included specs I feel you are not real confident on your choice of truck. I wanted to let you know what I have researched. I have struggled with this same question. I really wanted to avoid a DRW if possible. I went to a Ford Heavy Duty forum and they convinced me that I was in DRW territory. I have not purchased a truck yet, still looking at Ford, Dodge and GM. I have been looking at toy haulers with dry pin weights from 2700 pounds to 3500 pounds. What I have been told is the 5th wheel loaded will have a much different pin weight than what is posted in the camper manufacturers specs. I am definatly no expert but the math I was told to follow is to multiply the campers loaded weight by 25% and that would give me an idea of loaded pin weight. If your camper is loaded at 14,200 pounds you might have 3,550 pounds on your pin. If thats the case it would leave you with 370 pounds to put in the truck. Two people in the truck, fuel, hitch, etc. not sure if you will exceed payload? You will find out for sure when you load the camper and weigh it. In my case with the math I went over truck specs fairly quickly. I was even trying to factor in that most of my weight would be in the rear (motorcycle/golf cart) that would help reduce pin weights. Not to mention how the weight is distributed in the camper can make a difference.
Again, I am in no way any more than an interested beginner in all of this. I really was concerned with purchasing a diesel DRW but have convinced it is the right way to go for me. I look forward to seeing what others have to say as I learn more and more every day! I look forward to finding out how your weights affect the truck when you get it home and loaded!
Hope everything works out great for you!
Jon
KRUEBBE22 said
02:44 PM Mar 21, 2018
Thanks Jon, I appreciate your input!
Rickl said
05:52 PM Mar 21, 2018
Lots of people pull similar size 5th wheels with a SRW and swear it is ok. I myself like the piece of mind my DRW provides, along with some extra room for weight. I never been a real believer in having “just enough” or to get by. Too many factors out on the road that can create issues, especially panic stops. Be prepared to be treated like a semi as people will whip in front of you at the last second to make thier turn. Even my wife, who follows me in the car, noticed how people do it quite often.
It’s a difficult decision but just make sure you have that piece of mind so you enjoy the trip and aren’t stressed to max once you get to you next destination. Just my 2 cents.
Terry and Jo said
08:57 PM Mar 21, 2018
As a former truck driver, I have a tendency to always want to have a "cushion" with regards to vehicle weights and such. For instance, if the calculations say that the pin weight of the trailer in the back of the pickup will put one within a couple hundred pounds of the GAWR, then I would look to either a lighter RV or a heavier capable truck. Besides, many say that one's first RV purchase may NOT be their final RV and they may trade for a larger, heavier one. In such a case, if one is close to specs, then one is then forced to look at buying a new(er) truck as well as the new RV.
In other words, plan for the future, either in a heavier RV or even just more weight in the bed of the truck or front compartments of the RV.
When doing our research, the fifth wheel we wanted (and ended up getting) has a GVWR of 18,500 lbs. My research at the time (2008-2009) indicated that the Ford F450 was the smallest truck that I would want. I got lucky in finding a one year old one for a great price.
Terry
RonC said
10:04 PM Mar 21, 2018
See ... I told you there is much more to the discussion.😎
Cummins12V98 said
08:13 AM Mar 22, 2018
The CAT scales will tell the story! As long as you are at or under your RAWR you should be fine. Your newer numbers have me wondering!
BiggarView said
09:17 AM Mar 22, 2018
Agree with Cummins12V98. Based on your more recent numbers you "look" okay for now but you may run out of RAWR before you hit your CGVWR. Your rear axle of 7000 RAWR, has to account for the portion of factory truck curb weight resting on it (2970lbs approx), then you have 2820lb of pin weight (Approx estimate from your numbers, Jayco Northpoint 315 unloaded pin weight number of 2655 plus ~20% of your stated cargo). Your hitch and other gear in the bed will take up the majority share of any remaining RAWR. Passengers and gear in the cab will also take some capacity too but not like anything in the actual bed itself. If you add more stuff to the trailer, figure on 20-25% of that additional weight going on the pin (counts against your RAWR).
As Cummins12V98 says... the scale weights will tell all.
-- Edited by BiggarView on Thursday 22nd of March 2018 09:23:39 AM
KRUEBBE22 said
09:22 AM Mar 22, 2018
Thanks for all the input.............the CAT scales are going to be one of the very first stops after we're loaded! Will definitely report back on the results. We take delivery on the fifth on April 24th.
It came in before we had expected it to.............take delivery on April 6th!!
-- Edited by KRUEBBE22 on Saturday 24th of March 2018 01:21:32 PM
Zeek said
11:34 AM Mar 24, 2018
I towed my current 5er with a 2015 Ford F250 diesel, super crew short bed, AirLift bags. The truck towed the camper fine, but I had to always be concerned about the RAWR and what I had loaded where. I switched to a dually and the biggest difference I noted was the side-to-side stability. That and less stress about weight. I also switched to a long bed. I never fully appreciated how much more cargo space that provides since I always had short beds. If money and parking are not an issue for you, there is no question I'd switch. You can never have too much towing capacity, but you can definitely have too little.
By the way, North Point rigs are nice. We were going to buy one of those had we not stumbled on the current one we have.
-- Edited by Zeek on Saturday 24th of March 2018 11:42:18 AM
KRUEBBE22 said
11:01 AM Apr 14, 2018
Cummins12V98 wrote:
The CAT scales will tell the story! As long as you are at or under your RAWR you should be fine. Your newer numbers have me wondering!
Okay, stopped at the CAT scales yesterday and here are my figures:
Steer Axle: 5,060
Drive Axle: 6,580
Trailer Axle: 11,000
Gross Weight: 22,640
I had a full tank of fuel (31 gallons) and a full tank of DEF (5 gallons)
Based on my figures in a previous post can I have some input?
Thanks!
Al
RonC said
05:19 PM Apr 14, 2018
Most SRW one tons have a rear axle rated for around 7,000 lbs. so that number looks OK. You also look to be right at the GVWR of a SRW one ton ... mine was rated at 11,400. While you are maxing out all your capacities and there is no mechanical reason to believe this will harm anything ... just from my point of view, I’d feel better with a dually to give me a little extra capacity, as I’m not a fan of running at the limit ... but that is my personal opinion. You just need to decide for yourself what you are comfortable with.
As (if) you add things to your load (tools, wood, dog, wife, coolers, food in pantry and fridge, bigger house batteries, generator ... etc. you will further overload your truck.
I would trade the truck ... but that is not advice for you, just what I would do in this situation (actually it is what I did in a similar situation).
Good luck and be safe!
The Schweitzers on the road said
06:30 PM Apr 14, 2018
Now take the truck to the scale again without the 5er. Deduct the new axles weights from those above. That will tell you the pin weight of the trailer. You will also find out how much you are over the base weight of 7775 for the truck (that is a stat number which will almost never be met in reality).
Add the pin weight to the trailer axle weight of 11000 and you will know the true weight of the whole loaded trailer.
With 5060+6580 = 11640 you are very close to the GVWR of 11700 or in other words almost out of truck payload. And that is by utilizing only a third of the trailers CCC.
You didn't mention if any of the 5er's tanks were (partially) full when weighing. A full fresh water tank and some weight in the black and gray tank can easily add a few hundred lbs.
I have pulled a 5er of similar weight specs with a SRW (F350) and was more than once scared when going down long steep grades. When pulling up such a grade I always felt the truck was at it's limit. Now having a DRW makes a difference I would not have believed before. Plenty of room in regards to any weight figures and a so much safer and stable ride. Interesting enough fuel consumption is 5-10% less with the DRW than with the SRW, but that might be just my experience.
After a few months with the DRW I had a blowout on one of the rear tires (not towing, but with the truck camper mounted). I only noticed the noise, there was no sway or any change in the driving. Thinking of a blowout with a SRW still makes me sweat. The maximum weight rating of the tires is almost never on anybodies mind when weight numbers are discussed. I feel like the tires are the true weak link in a setup getting close to the limits.
Of course it's your choice but I would trade the truck for a DRW. Save travels. Bernd
-- Edited by The Schweitzers on the road on Saturday 14th of April 2018 06:36:56 PM
KRUEBBE22 said
06:31 PM Apr 14, 2018
My calculations:
Steer Axle at 84%
Drive Axle at 94% (Don't like that one)
Fifth Wheel Axle at 78%
GCWR at 89%
Driving from Salem, OR to Sequim, WA I can say that other than the constant pouring rain, I felt comfortable and did not feel any unusual rear end swaying, even with 18 wheelers blowing by me, when I was doing 60 MPH. The whole trip back home there were 10 to 15 MPH winds. I'll be talking to my RAM dealer, who I know very well, to see what they can do on a trade. Only have 2,500 miles on my 2017 3500. They talked me out of a DRW. Don't understand why they would do that..............the difference in price is only about $1,200.00!
The Schweitzers on the road said
06:58 PM Apr 14, 2018
GVWR at 98.5%
payload at 98.5%
Interesting enough I had the same experience when shopping for a new truck. Total preference on selling a SRW. Price difference under 1k.
Any salesperson would give me a blank stare when I explained the weight puzzle for towing safely. They don't understand and they don't care.
Most typical answer is: "the truck will handle it just fine" or "everybody tows with a SRW - no problem"
RonC said
11:53 AM Apr 15, 2018
It might be that the SRW truck is in stock and the DRW was not. Financial incentives drive a lot of salesmen behaviors.
BiggarView said
06:09 PM Apr 15, 2018
The Schweitzers on the road wrote:
...most typical answer is: "the truck will handle it just fine" or "everybody tows with a SRW - no problem"
This is why buyer need to take anything a dealer says with a grain of salt.
Rob_Fla said
04:07 AM Apr 18, 2018
When I went to several local dealers (Chevy, GMC, Ford and RAM) truck looking last fall, they were only interested in selling what they currently had on the lot, not listening to what I actually wanted.
Finally went to a small town dealer about 30 miles north and sat down with the Fleet manager and told him what I wanted. His first words were, "You are probably not going to find that on a lot, do you need a truck today?"
My answer was no, my truck is fine (7 years old with 125,000 miles on it), just getting ready for retirement in a couple of years and want to upgrade so I do not start retirement with a 10 year old truck with 180,000 miles on it.
He said, well lets sit down and spec out exactly what you want, he was great, very knowledgeable of all the options and features. He did not try to sell the highest trim level and every option available, he went through all the trim level pluses an minuses (even showed us examples of each trim level and colors in units on the lot) and went through all the options pluses and minuses. It was a very enjoyable, low pressure experience and we got significantly better trade value for our current truck ($7,000 higher than local dealers) and much lower out the door price than we were getting from local dealers. (also was able to get Chrysler's "Friends and Family" discount)
Sure glad we made the drive 30 miles across the Georgia State Line to a small town dealership.
Glenn West said
07:02 PM Apr 18, 2018
New trucks just cost too much for my blood. My truck will be the last I'll buy and only have 32k with mods.
KRUEBBE22 said
07:32 PM Apr 18, 2018
Glenn West wrote:
New trucks just cost too much for my blood. My truck will be the last I'll buy and only have 32k with mods.
That is one heck of a truck!! Just days away from trading up to a 2018 RAM 3500 dually..................found the one we want, now just in a trying to strike a deal so I don't lose my shorts on the 2017 3500 SRW I bought with only 2400 miles on it. Will keep everyone posted.
KRUEBBE22 said
10:46 AM Apr 22, 2018
Okay, I've found a new 2017 RAM 3500 Dually long bed, diesel, Aisin tranny 4.10 that has been discounted $10,000. However, it doesn't have the air bag system. Does everyone find it absolutely necessary?
RonC said
11:51 AM Apr 22, 2018
I added air bags to allow me to run level ... that is really the only reason to have an air bag system, IMO. Some buy them to "add capacity" to their truck, which it does, but the trucks RAWR remains the same, air bags or not. Wait until you get your rig all loaded up and see if it is level (truck and trailer). If it is level then no air bags needed.
Good decision on the dually ... I made the same mistake and it cost me a little "education tax".
KRUEBBE22 said
11:57 AM Apr 22, 2018
My "education tax" going to be in the neighborhood of $6,000.................a small price to pay for safety and piece of mind..........IMHO
Cummins12V98 said
10:27 AM Apr 23, 2018
KRUEBBE22 wrote:
Okay, I've found a new 2017 RAM 3500 Dually long bed, diesel, Aisin tranny 4.10 that has been discounted $10,000. However, it doesn't have the air bag system. Does everyone find it absolutely necessary?
I would not be without it!!!
Just order the truck YOU want and be done with it. BTW 10K off is NOT all that great. At that price why compromise???
Rickl said
01:34 PM Apr 23, 2018
I don’t have the air bag option on mine. While it would be nice, my truck with approximately 3900 lbs of pin weight takes my rear down about 1/2-1” from level. My tire wear hasn’t been affected or put this way, hasn’t shown up yet if there is going to be any. Really comes down to one’s personal preference and what your wallet can withstand in my opinion.
KRUEBBE22 said
01:48 PM Apr 23, 2018
My dry pin weight is 2655. At the CAT scales my drive axle weighed in a 6,580 with a full tank of gas & def. I didn't weigh the truck by itself to get the full pin weight. I would guess I'm at 3200 pounds for a North Point 315RLTS
Glenn West said
02:27 PM Apr 23, 2018
KRUEBBE22 wrote:
Cummins12V98 wrote:
The CAT scales will tell the story! As long as you are at or under your RAWR you should be fine. Your newer numbers have me wondering!
Okay, stopped at the CAT scales yesterday and here are my figures:
Steer Axle: 5,060
Drive Axle: 6,580
Trailer Axle: 11,000
Gross Weight: 22,640
I had a full tank of fuel (31 gallons) and a full tank of DEF (5 gallons)
Based on my figures in a previous post can I have some input?
Thanks!
Al You do know that 22,640 in most states mean an upgrade to a Class A license.
KRUEBBE22 said
02:31 PM Apr 23, 2018
Holy Moly! Just had to go buy a new 3500 dually and throw away my new 3500 SRW and now I have to get a commercial license!! I thought RVing was supposed to be fun
KRUEBBE22 said
02:44 PM Apr 23, 2018
Taking a quick look, it appears the majority of the states allow a RV GCWR of up to 26,000 pounds without needed a Class A license...........but I guess if you are going to travel in those "other" states you will still need a Class A license.
Rickl said
03:45 PM Apr 23, 2018
You only need to comply with the issuing state of your drivers license. Not sure where 22,000 came into the equation as to requiring a commercial license. In Oklahoma I don’t need a commercial drivers license with a personal RV and I’m at 27,000 lbs roughly.
KRUEBBE22 said
03:54 PM Apr 23, 2018
My home state, Washington, has a GCWR of 26,000 pounds for an RV.
Glenn West said
04:54 PM Apr 23, 2018
KRUEBBE22 wrote:
Holy Moly! Just had to go buy a new 3500 dually and throw away my new 3500 SRW and now I have to get a commercial license!! I thought RVing was supposed to be fun
Class A Driving license is not commercial. Also my apologies. It's 26k. Had a brain fart. lol
-- Edited by Glenn West on Monday 23rd of April 2018 04:55:59 PM
RonC said
07:58 PM Apr 23, 2018
Rickl wrote:
You only need to comply with the issuing state of your drivers license. Not sure where 22,000 came into the equation as to requiring a commercial license. In Oklahoma I don’t need a commercial drivers license with a personal RV and I’m at 27,000 lbs roughly.
What Rick said.
BiggarView said
08:15 PM Apr 23, 2018
KRUEBBE22 wrote:
Taking a quick look, it appears the majority of the states allow a RV GCWR of up to 26,000 pounds without needed a Class A license...........but I guess if you are going to travel in those "other" states you will still need a Class A license.
So what's the big deal about a Class A drivers licence? You don't have to have a full blown CDL, that's only for professional truckers. Sure you gotta know certain rules and procedures cuz' if you are over 26000 lbs (typically) it seems reasonable that you should know them and be licensed accordingly. It is, what it is. JMHO. Methinks people are blowing the Class A license thing out of proportion.
Brian
Bill and Linda said
07:22 AM Apr 24, 2018
The driver’s license thing / requirements have been reviewed many times on this forum but let’s review
It is the laws and requirements of the issuing state, i.e. your state of residence, which determines the requirements / class of your driver’s license.
Regardless of the class / requirements of your state your driver’s license is good in all other 49 states regardless of those other 49 state’s requirements.
There CDL is for commercial use only and is only required, in simple terms, if you drive to make a living. It is not required to drive a personal RV as defined in most states as something having living quarters and being mobile.
It is possible, for example, to need a commercial driver’s license to drive a car. A Chauffeur for example. In many states this is known as a Class C CDL.
Independent of needing a CDL is the CLASS of driver’s license, or in some states an endorsement, to operate certain vehicles based on weight or length or needing air brakes the latter of which is an endorsement in some cases to an existing Class of license
Many states have gone to the Class A or B or C License designation which is a “Class rating” and has nothing to do with a commercial driver’s license as such although the written and driving tests do overlap greatly.
In many states for a 5th wheel RV a Class A non-CDL license is required if the total combined weight of the rig is over 26,001 lbs AND the trailer is over 10,000 lbs.
In many states a Class B non-CDL is required if the combined weight of the rig is over 26,001lbs but the trailer (or towed car) is under 10,000lbs. (An air-brake endorsement maybe required if you rig has air brakes.)
A Class A is good for Class B operations but a Class B is not approved for Class A operations.
And if it is California, throw all that out the window. As I understand if it has duall wheels a CDL is needed. Glad I don't live there.
Bill and Linda said
01:17 PM Apr 24, 2018
Glenn West wrote:
And if it is California, throw all that out the window. As I understand if it has duall wheels a CDL is needed. Glad I don't live there.
Don't believe the dual wheel part is correct, but indirectly it is because any 5th wheel over 15,000lbs requires a Class A and by safety default that does mean dual rear wheels.
But as I say, "It depends" and one must check each state individually.
KRUEBBE22 said
01:08 PM Apr 26, 2018
Another question. I'm looking at several RAM duallies at this point. One that I really like doesn't have the Aisin tranny, but does have the 4.10 axle ratio. It has the 68RFE. My present SRW has the Aisin with a 3.42 axle ratio. Some thoughts from those who have either of these?
Bill and Linda said
01:54 PM Apr 26, 2018
KRUEBBE22 wrote:
Another question. I'm looking at several RAM duallies at this point. One that I really like doesn't have the Aisin tranny, but does have the 4.10 axle ratio. It has the 68RFE. My present SRW has the Aisin with a 3.42 axle ratio. Some thoughts from those who have either of these?
Assuming you are purchasing this truck to tow, I strongly recommend the commercial -69 transmission. Not the 68RFE "pickup" transmission. If you order the Max Tow package, which you should, it will come with the AS69RC Commercial transmission and the 4.1 rear end. Also additional heat control systems. This is a heavy duty transmission used in true medium duty trucks, Class 4,5,6. Even in a Class 3 truck like the 3500HD it makes good sense to get the heavy duty transmission if indeed the truck will be used for towing.
Our transmission temps run 167-ish degree all the time. Climbing up I-17 from Phoenix to Flagstaff it just doesn't move from that number. 30,000+ miles and still smooth shifting especially when coupled with the excellent exhaust brake coming down the mountains holding back some 34,000 lbs.
Don't short change yourself. Order what is needed for the task. Not what's on the lot, IMO.
Rickl said
06:34 PM Apr 26, 2018
My dually has the Asian with 3.42 gears. My trailer weighs 13,700 on the two axles, rear axle has @ 7800 lbs, with the front at 5300 lbs. While I haven’t pulled up through the Eisenhower Tunnel yet (that will happen at the end of June) the truck hasn’t had an issue with any grade I have encountered throughout OK or TX.
I’d second what Bill said don’t short change yourself, get the truck you want. Just my humble opinion.
Bill and Linda said
06:47 AM Apr 27, 2018
Rickl wrote:
My dually has the Asian with 3.42 gears. My trailer weighs 13,700 on the two axles, rear axle has @ 7800 lbs, with the front at 5300 lbs. While I haven’t pulled up through the Eisenhower Tunnel yet (that will happen at the end of June) the truck hasn’t had an issue with any grade I have encountered throughout OK or TX.
I’d second what Bill said don’t short change yourself, get the truck you want. Just my humble opinion.
If I may comment - Rick gives a perspective which is important --
I've seen HDT's pulling 10,000 lb bumper pull trailers at the HDT Rally. Overkill? Well, yea. But that's what the owner wanted and that was fine. A good friend has a Ram 5500HD on order to pull his 18,000lb 5er. Overkill, a bit. But I can guarantee you he will never overload that truck regardless of all the tools he brings while full-timing.
I've been asked over the years to "advise" on many truck purchases. As I always say, "It depends and its just a spreadsheet." The spreadsheet is the analysis of the weights on the truck, both CGVW (what the entire rig will weight fully loaded) and the weights on each of the axles front and rear.
The issue is how much of the design of the truck will be used by a particular trailer and load in the truck (tools, fuel, hitch weight, etc.) and how much might be left over for, perhaps, another trailer. "Another trailer" happens all the time.
I've just seen so many people end up having to purchase yet another truck. Especially true with larger trailers such as the New Horizons or larger DRV's, etc. Another truck due to trailer weight / pin load or due to the bed rails of the truck gouging into the trailer due to insufficient clearance. (All new pickups are high - all.) Or the biggest issue: Believing what the dealer's salesperson says.
Towing puts a lot of extra strain on equipment. Assuming we believe the literature, the Aisin AS69RC commercial transmission has 64% higher input torque capacity then the 68RFE. Towing is all about torque, not horsepower. It is a larger transmission physically having heavier duty components. The Max tow package offers additional cooling. We can only believe what is officially published and believe it to the extent we believe any "marketing" material. Just because, for example, a manufacture says a truck has an exhaust brake does not mean said exhaust brake works very well. So we test drive and seek others experiences.
I say all this, FWIW, just for perspective. I certainly would not way over-spec a truck. But at the same time if I were pulling an RV 5th wheel trailer and knew, for safety, I should go to a dual rear wheel truck I would certainly consider finishing the project and getting the truck equipped specifically for towing.
Final point, again FWIW, unless the truck will very seldom be used for towing going to the lower 3.x rear end ratios will accomplish little as to MPG when towing. The transmission will just be in a lower gear and not in the 2nd overdrive, 6th gear. It's that torque thing again. A 4.1 is not that high for the high output Cummins.
All of these opinions are just that but based on a lot of miles and years of towing both personally and professionally.
Bill
BiggarView said
08:12 AM Apr 27, 2018
Bill, if I could just ask... What extra cooling is in the RAM "max tow package" beyond the fins on the differential with the 4.10 gears? I get that the differential gears are turning faster and thus generating heat to be dissipated. Does the max tow bring a trans cooler or heavier duty radiator to the mix? Inquiring minds want to know. We were considering the 3.73 but now maybe we should have the 4.10 for our future ~29000 CGVW/18500 trailer GVW set-up? It is more than likely the TV will be used for that purpose 80% of the time or more. As you know we are still considering the Chev Duramax but it only comes with 3.73 gears but we'd have more headroom for a hauler bed WRT TV payload capacity vs the RAM 3500 comparably equipped.
Brian
-- Edited by BiggarView on Friday 27th of April 2018 08:32:46 AM
Glenn West said
09:46 AM Apr 27, 2018
I bought a 2012 CC LB Chevy dually. Towed my DRV great. sold DRV and got Teton. Could not level Teton. Installed hauler bed. Bought air ride hitch. Hooked up Teton, too low. Springs are bowed backwards. put air bags on Chevy. Now level. Used just enough air to relieve springs. Plenty of power. Rode like a sled. Took a job near Baton Rogue and went down I-10 and my head actually hit top of cab due to the lack of spring action on that rough road. That was it. Bought HDT. Sweet. Now I could have bought a 5500 but it would also had to be my daily commute. Also that is one expensive truck.
KRUEBBE22 said
10:16 AM Apr 27, 2018
When pricing out a RAM 3500, the "Maximum Tow Package" only offers the following assuming you've chosen the Aisin transmission to begin with:
Max Tow Package
$3,500
INCLUDES:
4.10 Axle Ratio
5th Wheel / Gooseneck Towing Prep Group
Auto Level Rear Air Suspension
Low Beam Daytime Running Headlamps
30K Direct Mnt 5th-Wheel Hitch by Mopar®
Trailer Brake Control
Center High-Mount Stop Lamp w/Cargo View Camera
Nothing about extra transmission cooling other than what already comes with the Aisin.
Dave and Denise said
10:18 AM Apr 27, 2018
KRUEBBE22 wrote:
My home state, Washington, has a GCWR of 26,000 pounds for an RV.
Are you sure about this? Washington State Title 46.25.050 specifically exempts an operator of a non commercial vehicle that is a recreational vehicle from a CDL. A quick look and I did not see where a Class A license or any additional endorsement is required in Washington for a non commercial RV. I am not saying it doesn't as maybe I missed it.
I can tell you a couple years back I went through this whole process in Florida. In various message boards I was told I needed a CDL or an additional endorsement. Then I asked my local DMV, they said yes because of the 26,000lb classification. I called the State Department of Transportation and they said yes. I emailed them and they said yes, but I persisted. I had read the state laws and knew there was an exception for an RV, but I wanted something I could rely on in case we were ever stopped or worse in an accident in another state. I have a 4 page word document detailing my research of the law. Finally I received the email below from the Department of Highway Safety clarifying my 5th wheel was exempt. My point is there are a lot of people with good intentions that might give you either the wrong answer or the answer that is correct for their state. You need to know the law for your state and it is even hard to get the correct answer from the DMV.
CUSTOMER SERVICE RESPONSE: As stated, FS 322.53 exempts drivers of RV’s as defined in FS 320.01 from the requirements to have a CDL. Below are the excepts from FS 320.01(1)(b) that based on the question are relevant. FS 320.01(1)(b) A recreational vehicle-type unit primarily designed as temporary living quarters for recreational, camping, or travel use, which either has its own motive power or is mounted on or drawn by another vehicle. Recreational vehicle-type units, when traveling on the public roadways of this state, must comply with the length and width provisions of s. 316.515, as that section may hereafter be amended. As defined below, the basic entities are: FS 320.01(1)(b)(8) 8. The “fifth-wheel trailer,” which is a vehicular unit mounted on wheels, designed to provide temporary living quarters for recreational, camping, or travel use, of such size or weight as not to require a special highway movement permit, of gross trailer area not to exceed 400 square feet in the setup mode, and designed to be towed by a motorized vehicle that contains a towing mechanism that is mounted above or forward of the tow vehicle’s rear axle. As long as the vehicle meets these requirements then the driver is exempt from the requirements to have a CDL to operate the combination vehicle. We hope this information is of assistance to you.
We hope this information is helpful, this matter has been closed by our Customer Service Department. If you have further questions you may contact us by phone at (850)617-2000 or submit a new question at http://www.flhsmv.gov/html/contact2.html
-- Edited by Dave and Denise on Saturday 28th of April 2018 07:57:38 AM
Glenn West said
12:49 PM Apr 27, 2018
California has to be different from everyone else. Having stated this but for the rest of the country, No one needs a CDL for recreation use as long as it is not for money. C in CDL stands for commercial. Now transporting a unit for a dealer you best have a CDL. Lots of states require you to get a Class A DL. It makes it legal to tow above 26,000 lbs. SD a Class C can drive a Semi for recreational use. I advise everyone to check your state laws.
-- Edited by Glenn West on Friday 27th of April 2018 12:55:46 PM
Hello, I'm brand new to this forum and wondering is there anyone that tows a 5th with a SRW?! We have a 2018 JAYCO North Point (315) on order. We decided to purchase a 2017 RAM 3500/Aisin/6.7 Cummins/Air Bag Suspension as our tow vehicle after talking to several seasoned 5ers. Our 5th will gross out at about 13,900 to 14,200..........we never travel with all our worldly possessions nor do we boon dock. The first thing I did when purchasing the RAM was to swap out the stock Firestone tires with Michelin Defender LTX M/S...........just have always preferred Michelin. I need some comforting or honest criticism from this forum. Always owned motor homes......this is our first 5er.
Good call on the Defenders I did the same with 200 miles on my Dually.
14k loaded is absolutely within that trucks capabilities.
You don't say long or short bed??? Either way I hope your truck has the 5er prep.
Thanks so much for your replies. If need be I'll suck up the loss and go to a DRW. We take delivery on the 5er the end of April. Plan on a shake down trip as soon as we pick it up. If I experience any uncomfortable problems, I will make the switch. Short of actually weighing, since we do not have the 5er yet, I've tried looking at several calculations given to see if I'm overloaded and to be frank, I seem to not quite grasp exactly what figures they are looking for. Here are some very accurate stats on both the RAM & the 5er. If any of you can shed some light I would appreciate it.
RAM:
GVWR: 11,700#
Base Weight: 7,775#
Payload: 3,920#
GAWR Rear: 7,000#
GCWR: 25,300#
Actual Cargo: 806# (Passengers, fuel, hitch)
JAYCO North Point:
Unloaded Weight: 12,405#
Actual Cargo (Everything has been weighed): 853#
GVWR: 15,250#
Actual Loaded Weight: 13,258#
I should add it's a short box with a Pullrite Super Slider hitch.
-- Edited by KRUEBBE22 on Wednesday 21st of March 2018 11:44:22 AM
Again, I am in no way any more than an interested beginner in all of this. I really was concerned with purchasing a diesel DRW but have convinced it is the right way to go for me. I look forward to seeing what others have to say as I learn more and more every day! I look forward to finding out how your weights affect the truck when you get it home and loaded!
Hope everything works out great for you!
Jon
It’s a difficult decision but just make sure you have that piece of mind so you enjoy the trip and aren’t stressed to max once you get to you next destination. Just my 2 cents.
As a former truck driver, I have a tendency to always want to have a "cushion" with regards to vehicle weights and such. For instance, if the calculations say that the pin weight of the trailer in the back of the pickup will put one within a couple hundred pounds of the GAWR, then I would look to either a lighter RV or a heavier capable truck. Besides, many say that one's first RV purchase may NOT be their final RV and they may trade for a larger, heavier one. In such a case, if one is close to specs, then one is then forced to look at buying a new(er) truck as well as the new RV.
In other words, plan for the future, either in a heavier RV or even just more weight in the bed of the truck or front compartments of the RV.
When doing our research, the fifth wheel we wanted (and ended up getting) has a GVWR of 18,500 lbs. My research at the time (2008-2009) indicated that the Ford F450 was the smallest truck that I would want. I got lucky in finding a one year old one for a great price.
Terry
Agree with Cummins12V98. Based on your more recent numbers you "look" okay for now but you may run out of RAWR before you hit your CGVWR. Your rear axle of 7000 RAWR, has to account for the portion of factory truck curb weight resting on it (2970lbs approx), then you have 2820lb of pin weight (Approx estimate from your numbers, Jayco Northpoint 315 unloaded pin weight number of 2655 plus ~20% of your stated cargo). Your hitch and other gear in the bed will take up the majority share of any remaining RAWR. Passengers and gear in the cab will also take some capacity too but not like anything in the actual bed itself. If you add more stuff to the trailer, figure on 20-25% of that additional weight going on the pin (counts against your RAWR).
As Cummins12V98 says... the scale weights will tell all.
-- Edited by BiggarView on Thursday 22nd of March 2018 09:23:39 AM
Thanks for all the input.............the CAT scales are going to be one of the very first stops after we're loaded! Will definitely report back on the results. We take delivery on the fifth on April 24th.
It came in before we had expected it to.............take delivery on April 6th!!
-- Edited by KRUEBBE22 on Saturday 24th of March 2018 01:21:32 PM
I towed my current 5er with a 2015 Ford F250 diesel, super crew short bed, AirLift bags. The truck towed the camper fine, but I had to always be concerned about the RAWR and what I had loaded where. I switched to a dually and the biggest difference I noted was the side-to-side stability. That and less stress about weight. I also switched to a long bed. I never fully appreciated how much more cargo space that provides since I always had short beds. If money and parking are not an issue for you, there is no question I'd switch. You can never have too much towing capacity, but you can definitely have too little.
By the way, North Point rigs are nice. We were going to buy one of those had we not stumbled on the current one we have.
-- Edited by Zeek on Saturday 24th of March 2018 11:42:18 AM
Okay, stopped at the CAT scales yesterday and here are my figures:
Steer Axle: 5,060
Drive Axle: 6,580
Trailer Axle: 11,000
Gross Weight: 22,640
I had a full tank of fuel (31 gallons) and a full tank of DEF (5 gallons)
Based on my figures in a previous post can I have some input?
Thanks!
Al
As (if) you add things to your load (tools, wood, dog, wife, coolers, food in pantry and fridge, bigger house batteries, generator ... etc. you will further overload your truck.
I would trade the truck ... but that is not advice for you, just what I would do in this situation (actually it is what I did in a similar situation).
Good luck and be safe!
Now take the truck to the scale again without the 5er. Deduct the new axles weights from those above. That will tell you the pin weight of the trailer. You will also find out how much you are over the base weight of 7775 for the truck (that is a stat number which will almost never be met in reality).
Add the pin weight to the trailer axle weight of 11000 and you will know the true weight of the whole loaded trailer.
With 5060+6580 = 11640 you are very close to the GVWR of 11700 or in other words almost out of truck payload. And that is by utilizing only a third of the trailers CCC.
You didn't mention if any of the 5er's tanks were (partially) full when weighing. A full fresh water tank and some weight in the black and gray tank can easily add a few hundred lbs.
I have pulled a 5er of similar weight specs with a SRW (F350) and was more than once scared when going down long steep grades. When pulling up such a grade I always felt the truck was at it's limit.
Now having a DRW makes a difference I would not have believed before. Plenty of room in regards to any weight figures and a so much safer and stable ride. Interesting enough fuel consumption is 5-10% less with the DRW than with the SRW, but that might be just my experience.
After a few months with the DRW I had a blowout on one of the rear tires (not towing, but with the truck camper mounted). I only noticed the noise, there was no sway or any change in the driving. Thinking of a blowout with a SRW still makes me sweat.
The maximum weight rating of the tires is almost never on anybodies mind when weight numbers are discussed. I feel like the tires are the true weak link in a setup getting close to the limits.
Of course it's your choice but I would trade the truck for a DRW.
Save travels.
Bernd
-- Edited by The Schweitzers on the road on Saturday 14th of April 2018 06:36:56 PM
Steer Axle at 84%
Drive Axle at 94% (Don't like that one)
Fifth Wheel Axle at 78%
GCWR at 89%
Driving from Salem, OR to Sequim, WA I can say that other than the constant pouring rain, I felt comfortable and did not feel any unusual rear end swaying, even with 18 wheelers blowing by me, when I was doing 60 MPH. The whole trip back home there were 10 to 15 MPH winds. I'll be talking to my RAM dealer, who I know very well, to see what they can do on a trade. Only have 2,500 miles on my 2017 3500. They talked me out of a DRW. Don't understand why they would do that..............the difference in price is only about $1,200.00!
payload at 98.5%
Interesting enough I had the same experience when shopping for a new truck. Total preference on selling a SRW. Price difference under 1k.
Any salesperson would give me a blank stare when I explained the weight puzzle for towing safely. They don't understand and they don't care.
Most typical answer is: "the truck will handle it just fine" or "everybody tows with a SRW - no problem"
This is why buyer need to take anything a dealer says with a grain of salt.
Finally went to a small town dealer about 30 miles north and sat down with the Fleet manager and told him what I wanted. His first words were, "You are probably not going to find that on a lot, do you need a truck today?"
My answer was no, my truck is fine (7 years old with 125,000 miles on it), just getting ready for retirement in a couple of years and want to upgrade so I do not start retirement with a 10 year old truck with 180,000 miles on it.
He said, well lets sit down and spec out exactly what you want, he was great, very knowledgeable of all the options and features. He did not try to sell the highest trim level and every option available, he went through all the trim level pluses an minuses (even showed us examples of each trim level and colors in units on the lot) and went through all the options pluses and minuses. It was a very enjoyable, low pressure experience and we got significantly better trade value for our current truck ($7,000 higher than local dealers) and much lower out the door price than we were getting from local dealers. (also was able to get Chrysler's "Friends and Family" discount)
Sure glad we made the drive 30 miles across the Georgia State Line to a small town dealership.
That is one heck of a truck!! Just days away from trading up to a 2018 RAM 3500 dually..................found the one we want, now just in a trying to strike a deal so I don't lose my shorts on the 2017 3500 SRW I bought with only 2400 miles on it. Will keep everyone posted.
Okay, I've found a new 2017 RAM 3500 Dually long bed, diesel, Aisin tranny 4.10 that has been discounted $10,000. However, it doesn't have the air bag system. Does everyone find it absolutely necessary?
Good decision on the dually ... I made the same mistake and it cost me a little "education tax".
I would not be without it!!!
Just order the truck YOU want and be done with it. BTW 10K off is NOT all that great. At that price why compromise???
Holy Moly! Just had to go buy a new 3500 dually and throw away my new 3500 SRW and now I have to get a commercial license!! I thought RVing was supposed to be fun
Taking a quick look, it appears the majority of the states allow a RV GCWR of up to 26,000 pounds without needed a Class A license...........but I guess if you are going to travel in those "other" states you will still need a Class A license.
Class A Driving license is not commercial. Also my apologies. It's 26k. Had a brain fart. lol
-- Edited by Glenn West on Monday 23rd of April 2018 04:55:59 PM
What Rick said.
So what's the big deal about a Class A drivers licence? You don't have to have a full blown CDL, that's only for professional truckers. Sure you gotta know certain rules and procedures cuz' if you are over 26000 lbs (typically) it seems reasonable that you should know them and be licensed accordingly. It is, what it is. JMHO. Methinks people are blowing the Class A license thing out of proportion.
Brian
The driver’s license thing / requirements have been reviewed many times on this forum but let’s review
It is the laws and requirements of the issuing state, i.e. your state of residence, which determines the requirements / class of your driver’s license.
Regardless of the class / requirements of your state your driver’s license is good in all other 49 states regardless of those other 49 state’s requirements.
There CDL is for commercial use only and is only required, in simple terms, if you drive to make a living. It is not required to drive a personal RV as defined in most states as something having living quarters and being mobile.
It is possible, for example, to need a commercial driver’s license to drive a car. A Chauffeur for example. In many states this is known as a Class C CDL.
Independent of needing a CDL is the CLASS of driver’s license, or in some states an endorsement, to operate certain vehicles based on weight or length or needing air brakes the latter of which is an endorsement in some cases to an existing Class of license
Many states have gone to the Class A or B or C License designation which is a “Class rating” and has nothing to do with a commercial driver’s license as such although the written and driving tests do overlap greatly.
In many states for a 5th wheel RV a Class A non-CDL license is required if the total combined weight of the rig is over 26,001 lbs AND the trailer is over 10,000 lbs.
In many states a Class B non-CDL is required if the combined weight of the rig is over 26,001lbs but the trailer (or towed car) is under 10,000lbs. (An air-brake endorsement maybe required if you rig has air brakes.)
A Class A is good for Class B operations but a Class B is not approved for Class A operations.
As always, “It depends.”
This is a good general reference:
http://changingears.com/rv-sec-state-rv-license.shtml
Bill
Don't believe the dual wheel part is correct, but indirectly it is because any 5th wheel over 15,000lbs requires a Class A and by safety default that does mean dual rear wheels.
https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/dmv/detail/pubs/dl648/dl648pt2
But as I say, "It depends" and one must check each state individually.
Assuming you are purchasing this truck to tow, I strongly recommend the commercial -69 transmission. Not the 68RFE "pickup" transmission. If you order the Max Tow package, which you should, it will come with the AS69RC Commercial transmission and the 4.1 rear end. Also additional heat control systems. This is a heavy duty transmission used in true medium duty trucks, Class 4,5,6. Even in a Class 3 truck like the 3500HD it makes good sense to get the heavy duty transmission if indeed the truck will be used for towing.
Our transmission temps run 167-ish degree all the time. Climbing up I-17 from Phoenix to Flagstaff it just doesn't move from that number. 30,000+ miles and still smooth shifting especially when coupled with the excellent exhaust brake coming down the mountains holding back some 34,000 lbs.
Don't short change yourself. Order what is needed for the task. Not what's on the lot, IMO.
My dually has the Asian with 3.42 gears. My trailer weighs 13,700 on the two axles, rear axle has @ 7800 lbs, with the front at 5300 lbs. While I haven’t pulled up through the Eisenhower Tunnel yet (that will happen at the end of June) the truck hasn’t had an issue with any grade I have encountered throughout OK or TX.
I’d second what Bill said don’t short change yourself, get the truck you want. Just my humble opinion.
If I may comment - Rick gives a perspective which is important --
I've seen HDT's pulling 10,000 lb bumper pull trailers at the HDT Rally. Overkill? Well, yea. But that's what the owner wanted and that was fine. A good friend has a Ram 5500HD on order to pull his 18,000lb 5er. Overkill, a bit. But I can guarantee you he will never overload that truck regardless of all the tools he brings while full-timing.
I've been asked over the years to "advise" on many truck purchases. As I always say, "It depends and its just a spreadsheet." The spreadsheet is the analysis of the weights on the truck, both CGVW (what the entire rig will weight fully loaded) and the weights on each of the axles front and rear.
The issue is how much of the design of the truck will be used by a particular trailer and load in the truck (tools, fuel, hitch weight, etc.) and how much might be left over for, perhaps, another trailer. "Another trailer" happens all the time.
I've just seen so many people end up having to purchase yet another truck. Especially true with larger trailers such as the New Horizons or larger DRV's, etc. Another truck due to trailer weight / pin load or due to the bed rails of the truck gouging into the trailer due to insufficient clearance. (All new pickups are high - all.) Or the biggest issue: Believing what the dealer's salesperson says.
Towing puts a lot of extra strain on equipment. Assuming we believe the literature, the Aisin AS69RC commercial transmission has 64% higher input torque capacity then the 68RFE. Towing is all about torque, not horsepower. It is a larger transmission physically having heavier duty components. The Max tow package offers additional cooling. We can only believe what is officially published and believe it to the extent we believe any "marketing" material. Just because, for example, a manufacture says a truck has an exhaust brake does not mean said exhaust brake works very well. So we test drive and seek others experiences.
I say all this, FWIW, just for perspective. I certainly would not way over-spec a truck. But at the same time if I were pulling an RV 5th wheel trailer and knew, for safety, I should go to a dual rear wheel truck I would certainly consider finishing the project and getting the truck equipped specifically for towing.
Final point, again FWIW, unless the truck will very seldom be used for towing going to the lower 3.x rear end ratios will accomplish little as to MPG when towing. The transmission will just be in a lower gear and not in the 2nd overdrive, 6th gear. It's that torque thing again. A 4.1 is not that high for the high output Cummins.
All of these opinions are just that but based on a lot of miles and years of towing both personally and professionally.
Bill
Bill, if I could just ask... What extra cooling is in the RAM "max tow package" beyond the fins on the differential with the 4.10 gears? I get that the differential gears are turning faster and thus generating heat to be dissipated. Does the max tow bring a trans cooler or heavier duty radiator to the mix? Inquiring minds want to know. We were considering the 3.73 but now maybe we should have the 4.10 for our future ~29000 CGVW/18500 trailer GVW set-up? It is more than likely the TV will be used for that purpose 80% of the time or more. As you know we are still considering the Chev Duramax but it only comes with 3.73 gears but we'd have more headroom for a hauler bed WRT TV payload capacity vs the RAM 3500 comparably equipped.
Brian
-- Edited by BiggarView on Friday 27th of April 2018 08:32:46 AM
Max Tow Package
$3,500
INCLUDES:
4.10 Axle Ratio
5th Wheel / Gooseneck Towing Prep Group
Auto Level Rear Air Suspension
Low Beam Daytime Running Headlamps
30K Direct Mnt 5th-Wheel Hitch by Mopar®
Trailer Brake Control
Center High-Mount Stop Lamp w/Cargo View Camera
Nothing about extra transmission cooling other than what already comes with the Aisin.
Are you sure about this? Washington State Title 46.25.050 specifically exempts an operator of a non commercial vehicle that is a recreational vehicle from a CDL. A quick look and I did not see where a Class A license or any additional endorsement is required in Washington for a non commercial RV. I am not saying it doesn't as maybe I missed it.
I can tell you a couple years back I went through this whole process in Florida. In various message boards I was told I needed a CDL or an additional endorsement. Then I asked my local DMV, they said yes because of the 26,000lb classification. I called the State Department of Transportation and they said yes. I emailed them and they said yes, but I persisted. I had read the state laws and knew there was an exception for an RV, but I wanted something I could rely on in case we were ever stopped or worse in an accident in another state. I have a 4 page word document detailing my research of the law. Finally I received the email below from the Department of Highway Safety clarifying my 5th wheel was exempt. My point is there are a lot of people with good intentions that might give you either the wrong answer or the answer that is correct for their state. You need to know the law for your state and it is even hard to get the correct answer from the DMV.
CUSTOMER SERVICE RESPONSE: As stated, FS 322.53 exempts drivers of RV’s as defined in FS 320.01 from the requirements to have a CDL. Below are the excepts from FS 320.01(1)(b) that based on the question are relevant. FS 320.01(1)(b) A recreational vehicle-type unit primarily designed as temporary living quarters for recreational, camping, or travel use, which either has its own motive power or is mounted on or drawn by another vehicle. Recreational vehicle-type units, when traveling on the public roadways of this state, must comply with the length and width provisions of s. 316.515, as that section may hereafter be amended. As defined below, the basic entities are: FS 320.01(1)(b)(8) 8. The “fifth-wheel trailer,” which is a vehicular unit mounted on wheels, designed to provide temporary living quarters for recreational, camping, or travel use, of such size or weight as not to require a special highway movement permit, of gross trailer area not to exceed 400 square feet in the setup mode, and designed to be towed by a motorized vehicle that contains a towing mechanism that is mounted above or forward of the tow vehicle’s rear axle. As long as the vehicle meets these requirements then the driver is exempt from the requirements to have a CDL to operate the combination vehicle. We hope this information is of assistance to you.
We hope this information is helpful, this matter has been closed by our Customer Service Department. If you have further questions you may contact us by phone at (850)617-2000 or submit a new question at http://www.flhsmv.gov/html/contact2.html
-- Edited by Dave and Denise on Saturday 28th of April 2018 07:57:38 AM
California has to be different from everyone else. Having stated this but for the rest of the country, No one needs a CDL for recreation use as long as it is not for money. C in CDL stands for commercial. Now transporting a unit for a dealer you best have a CDL. Lots of states require you to get a Class A DL. It makes it legal to tow above 26,000 lbs. SD a Class C can drive a Semi for recreational use. I advise everyone to check your state laws.
-- Edited by Glenn West on Friday 27th of April 2018 12:55:46 PM