All the different weights are making my head spin. They are all confusing, but CCC is really a puzzle: if a FT rig has a CCC of 3,000 lbs, if you add a generator and a w/d, it seems you'll be down to less than a 1,000 lbs in no time for everything else - dishes, clothes, golf clubs (can't forget those....), etc. How does that work? Help!
BiggarView said
09:53 AM Jul 31, 2017
You're right, adding those things and others will almost certainly cut the available capacity for your personal stuff including food, tools, gear, clothing etc. This problem is more prevalent on 5ers and TTs, but it happens on smaller motorized RVs also. Larger MHs have plenty of capacity so this issue doesn't normally arise. It's one of the reasons you see many folks that fulltime upgrading suspensions and tires on towables, it is comparatively rare on motorized RVs but not unheard of. I'm sure somebody with more expertise on the subject will chime in on the nuances of the subject. Basically, the frame, axles and brakes limit the GVWR so... the actual weight of the empty rig subtracted from the GVWR gives you the CCC. Each Mfr uses their own methods to calculate those numbers and dealer installed options do not figure in those calculations.
-- Edited by BiggarView on Monday 31st of July 2017 10:41:24 AM
Bruce and Robin said
10:13 AM Jul 31, 2017
Flashman wrote:
All the different weights are making my head spin. They are all confusing, but CCC is really a puzzle: if a FT rig has a CCC of 3,000 lbs, if you add a generator and a w/d, it seems you'll be down to less than a 1,000 lbs in no time for everything else - dishes, clothes, golf clubs (can't forget those....), etc. How does that work? Help!
You are correct. When your coach comes out of the factory it will have a sticker stating the dry weight and the Gross Vehicle Weight Rating. It will also state the Cargo Carrying Capacity ( CCC )weight. If you get a washer and dryer you need to subract it from the CCC number. After you use the washer it will have remaining water in it so it will weigh more than it did when you bought it, probably. Add a generator and subtract more weight. Account for at least a 50% amount of water in your fresh water tank. So if you have a 100 gallon FW tank like me, its another 50 x 8.34lbs = 417 lbs. Before you know it you are at your limit and you haven't added much cargo! Some of the newer 5th wheel coaches like New Horizons triple axle coaches have lots of CCC. Folks on here like Neil and Bill can attest to that.
Then you have to start thinking about how much weight you have on each tire of the coach since most coaches are heavier on one side due to the kitchen slide with residential fridge. My driver side is much heavier since I have a kitchen with residential fridge, entertainment center slideout, and washer/dryer king bed headboard slide, all on that side. Many things to think about.
-- Edited by Bruce and Robin on Monday 31st of July 2017 10:14:09 AM
IrishRover said
12:04 PM Jul 31, 2017
Some terms and definitions that might help! See sample sticker below for a 5th wheel RV. Or the dealer might also have a tag on the unit, but usually only UVW and maybe pin weight.
GVWR (Gross Vehicle Weight Rating) means the maximum allowable weight of the fully loaded vehicle, including liquids, passengers, cargo and the tongue weight of any towed vehicle. Note: The tow vehicle and RV each have a separate GVWR.
This and all Ratingscannotbe changed or exceeded (legally) – they are maximum allowable limits determined by the manufacturer in the design of the vehicle.
UVW (Unloaded Vehicle Weight) is the weight of the unit as built at the factory including LP gas, with full fuel tanks, engine oil and coolants (latter part only applies to tow vehicle or MHs). The UVW does not include cargo, fresh water, occupants or dealer-installed accessories. Those accessories could be anything from washer/dryer, generator, solar, more batteries, etc.
So, now you get to what is important for your stuff.
CCC (Cargo Carrying Capacity), used Sept 2000 – present [NCC Net Carrying Capacity was used before 2000], means GVWR minus the following: UVW, full fresh (potable) water weight (including that for the water heater), full LP gas weight, and in the case of tow vehicles and MHs the number of people (154lb x No. of people). Note: Remember that optional accessories or equipment not included in the UVW will take up part of the Cargo Carrying Capacity. Add more options means less weight capacity for your stuff.
If this toy hauler is towed with empty water and waste tanks, it can carry 2,302 lbs. If the fresh and hot water tanks are full and waste tanks are empty, it can hold just 1,372 lbs.
If it weight something and you want it in/on your RV it counts against CCC!
Good luck with your search.
-- Edited by IrishRover on Monday 31st of July 2017 06:02:18 PM
Bill and Linda said
02:05 PM Jul 31, 2017
IrishRover wrote:
Some terms and definitions that might help! See sample sticker below for a 5th wheel RV. Or the dealer might also have a tag on the unit, but usually only UVW and maybe pin weight.
UVW (Unloaded Vehicle Weight) is the weight of the unit as built at the factory, with full fuel tanks, engine oil and coolants (latter part only applies to tow vehicle or MHs). The UVW does not include cargo, fresh water, LP gas, occupants or dealer-installed accessories. Those accessories could be anything from washer/dryer, generator, solar, more batteries, etc.
Gerry: Not to put too fine a point on it, but I guess I will. Usually the UVW includes full LP gas tanks, because, they can't be off-loaded. That is, unlike fresh water, one can't drain them on the ground to off-load weight. So normally those are considered in the UVW as full.
But to your point - Absolutely many 5ers, including Toy Haulers, once all the extra's are included have little CCC for your stuff. Air conditioners are extras, BTW. This is especially true on some higher end rigs that do not list realistic CCC's on the websites. Dealers are also known to add extra's like W/D or a second AC and not put on a supplemental sticker for the new, reduced, CCC prior to sale. I've personally seen higher end rigs come off the line with only 1,100lbs of CCC on the sticker - and that's with no fresh water.
There maybe others, but to my knowledge the only RV manufacture that specifically guarantees 3,000 lb minimum CCC for the rig as delivered to the first owner is New Horizons for the Majestic line. Spacecraft by default probably does the same thing or something similar. If anyone knows specifically a production line 5er / TH that has a similar guarantee with all included options do speak up. Not selling a NH. Just pointing out true, realistic CCC is very hard to determine from "specs" on a website.
Bill
FastEagle said
05:37 PM Jul 31, 2017
This quote is from FMVSS 571.120, paragraph S10.4.2. This rule has been used since 2007.
"The weight value for load carrying capacity on the RV load carrying capacity labels must be displayed to the nearest kilogram with conversion to the nearest pound and must be such that the vehicle's weight does not exceed its GVWR when loaded with the stated load carrying capacity. The UVW and the GVWR used to determine the RV's load carrying capacity must reflect the weights and design of the motor home or RV trailer as configured for delivery to the dealer/service facility. If applicable, the weight of full propane tanks must be included in the RV's UVW and the weight of on-board potable water must be treated as cargo."
Sushidog said
07:32 PM Aug 1, 2017
I was recently looking at a 2004 Fleetwood Southwind Class A that only had 800 lbs CCC (with full fresh water and propane)! That's hardly suitable for weekend vacations. Motorized RVs with tag axles offer more CCC.
Unfortunately lowering the CCC is a recent sales gimmick for towables. As strange as this may sound, I've seen manufacturers simply switch the running gear on a TT from one year to the next to get the GVWR down to the "half ton towable" range. Same exact trailer as the year before, but instead of it having 4,500lbs of carrying capacity and a GVWR or 11,000 lbs, with 2 - 5,200 lb axles and 15" wheels, they swap it out with 3,500lb axles and 14" wheels which lowers the GVWR to around 7,500 lbs, leaving only 1,000lbs CCC, but now they can advertise it as "half ton towable."
Crazy, no?
Chip
Lynn and Ed said
11:01 PM Aug 1, 2017
If I were purchasing a new RV today, I would write into the contract the minimum Cargo Carrying Capacity (after full water, after all ordered options) that the RV would be delivered with—no matter what is shared verbally or in marketing materials. I know too many people that were told they would have a larger cargo capacity than what was delivered (e.g., Fifthwheels and Class A Motorhomes). For example, a friend’s new Class A diesel pushers was overweight on their front axle, BEFORE any cargo was added (and their available cargo carrying capacity was approx. 1,000 lbs.)—that couple ultimately did not take delivery of their new RV for various reasons.
Lynn
-- Edited by Lynn and Ed on Wednesday 2nd of August 2017 12:04:28 AM
FastEagle said
11:31 PM Aug 1, 2017
This is a quote from a NHTSA Q&A PDF.
The FMVSS have requirements for the manufacturer to use proper tires and rims for the gross axle weight rating (GAWR) and the gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR). The manufacturer may determine the GVWR by adding cargo capacity (if any) to the curb weight of the vehicle as manufactured. The wise consumer, before purchase, will determine if the vehicle has sufficient cargo capacity to carry the weight of water, additional equipment (such as televisions, and microwave ovens), and luggage. The manufacturer’s certification label must show the GVWR. The GVWR must not be exceeded by overloading the vehicle. There is little the government can do to assist a consumer who has purchased a vehicle that has insufficient cargo capacity for its intended use.
Lynn and Ed said
12:45 PM Aug 4, 2017
Lynn and Ed wrote:
If I were purchasing a new RV today, I would write into the contract the minimum Cargo Carrying Capacity (after full water, after all ordered options) that the RV would be delivered with—no matter what is shared verbally or in marketing materials. I know too many people that were told they would have a larger cargo capacity than what was delivered (e.g., Fifthwheels and Class A Motorhomes). For example, a friend’s new Class A diesel pushers was overweight on their front axle, BEFORE any cargo was added (and their available cargo carrying capacity was approx. 1,000 lbs.)—that couple ultimately did not take delivery of their new RV for various reasons.
Lynn
To add to my prior posting-- if the minimum CCC (that the manufacturer/dealer communicated you would receive) is written into the contract, and the RV that is delivered has less CCC – the outcomes could be:
a) The manufacturer/dealer, at their cost, increases the capacity by upgrading the tires, axles, hitch, or other component(s) that would be needed to reach the minimum CCC.
b) If that is not possible (e.g., the RV frame is the weak link) or they otherwise decline to fix the RV, then you can walk away from the purchase, since the contract was not fulfilled.*
If the CCC is not included within the contract, you are relying on the ethics and business practices of the manufacture/dealer to either fix the RV or refund your money (i.e., that clearly can happen, as it did with my prior Class A DP example, but not something that should be counted upon). What might happen is you will be forced to take possession of the RV (or walk away from all the money you have already provided them) and make upgrades at your cost, to increase the CCC.
Related tip: Do not take possession of or make your final payment on a new RV until you have your RV’s final weights in writing.
Lynn
* I am not a lawyer, so this is solely an assumption and you should seek appropriate legal counsel, since other contract language, state laws or other mitigating points might nullify your ability to recover all funds that had already been provided to the manufacturer/dealer.
-- Edited by Lynn and Ed on Friday 4th of August 2017 01:03:09 PM
RonC said
02:04 PM Aug 4, 2017
Sushidog wrote:
I was recently looking at a 2004 Fleetwood Southwind Class A that only had 800 lbs CCC (with full fresh water and propane)! That's hardly suitable for weekend vacations. Motorized RVs with tag axles offer more CCC.
Unfortunately lowering the CCC is a recent sales gimmick for towables. As strange as this may sound, I've seen manufacturers simply switch the running gear on a TT from one year to the next to get the GVWR down to the "half ton towable" range. Same exact trailer as the year before, but instead of it having 4,500lbs of carrying capacity and a GVWR or 11,000 lbs, with 2 - 5,200 lb axles and 15" wheels, they swap it out with 3,500lb axles and 14" wheels which lowers the GVWR to around 7,500 lbs, leaving only 1,000lbs CCC, but now they can advertise it as "half ton towable."
Crazy, no?
Chip
Yes, it is crazy. Spoke to a manufacturer rep (not mine but no brand will be identified) who told me they rate their GVWR to keep people out of "special licensing range" (the need to get a class A license). He implied that the rig was capable of "more" but offered no specifics. I suggested that two 7,000 lbs axles with a 25% pin weight implies a GVWR that should be about 17,500 ... he nodded and said "that's probably in the ballpark". So it's not always an engineering "safety" issue, sometimes it's a marketing "sales" issue (in this one case, but I suspect this might be an industry "don't ask don't tell thing").
-- Edited by RonC on Friday 4th of August 2017 06:19:27 PM
BiggarView said
03:56 PM Aug 4, 2017
RonC wrote:
Sushidog wrote:
... Unfortunately lowering the CCC is a recent sales gimmick for towables. As strange as this may sound, I've seen manufacturers simply switch the running gear on a TT from one year to the next to get the GVWR down to the "half ton towable" range. Same exact trailer as the year before, but instead of it having 4,500lbs of carrying capacity and a GVWR or 11,000 lbs, with 2 - 5,200 lb axles and 15" wheels, they swap it out with 3,500lb axles and 14" wheels which lowers the GVWR to around 7,500 lbs, leaving only 1,000lbs CCC, but now they can advertise it as "half ton towable."
Crazy, no?
Chip
Yes, it is crazy. Spoke to a manufacturer rep (not mine but no brand will be identified) who told me they rate their GVWR to keep people out of "special licensing range" (the need to get a class A license). ....So it's not always an engineering "safety" issue, sometimes it's a marketing "sales" issue (in this one case, but I suspect this might be an industry "don't ask don't tell thing").
-- Edited by RonC on Friday 4th of August 2017 03:14:49 PM
That sounds crazy, that a Mfr would "rate" a rig so as to keep people from requiring special licencing. It doesn't seem to serve any logical purpose, except to drive customers to smaller rigs out of some irrational fear that somehow a special class A licence is a bad thing to need and or have. Mfrs protecting us from ourselves out of a sense of contrived compassion for the buyer's perceived fear of a simple testing requirement? A class A license qualified buyer would make a better customer IMHO. Properly rating the rig as to its actual limits would be better for both the mfr and the customer... again JHMO.
on edit... OK now I see the plan... underrate the rig so the customer buys an unsuitably smaller rig and then comes back at a later date to buy a larger rig that better suits the buyers actual needs. Why sell only one rig to prospective customers when you can sell two or maybe three.... Brilliant!
-- Edited by BiggarView on Friday 4th of August 2017 04:02:57 PM
hostage said
03:33 PM Aug 23, 2017
Flashman wrote:
All the different weights are making my head spin. They are all confusing, but CCC is really a puzzle: if a FT rig has a CCC of 3,000 lbs, if you add a generator and a w/d, it seems you'll be down to less than a 1,000 lbs in no time for everything else - dishes, clothes, golf clubs (can't forget those....), etc. How does that work? Help!
yes in a nut shell;;
I find the easiest to do is weigh the unit and look up the GVWR then after you add the fixtures gen set and W/D reweigh it and now u have your CCC
that's still available Of course u have to watch things like water level propane level etc at time of weigh and have a reasonable idea how to compensate
All the different weights are making my head spin. They are all confusing, but CCC is really a puzzle: if a FT rig has a CCC of 3,000 lbs, if you add a generator and a w/d, it seems you'll be down to less than a 1,000 lbs in no time for everything else - dishes, clothes, golf clubs (can't forget those....), etc. How does that work? Help!
You're right, adding those things and others will almost certainly cut the available capacity for your personal stuff including food, tools, gear, clothing etc. This problem is more prevalent on 5ers and TTs, but it happens on smaller motorized RVs also. Larger MHs have plenty of capacity so this issue doesn't normally arise. It's one of the reasons you see many folks that fulltime upgrading suspensions and tires on towables, it is comparatively rare on motorized RVs but not unheard of. I'm sure somebody with more expertise on the subject will chime in on the nuances of the subject. Basically, the frame, axles and brakes limit the GVWR so... the actual weight of the empty rig subtracted from the GVWR gives you the CCC. Each Mfr uses their own methods to calculate those numbers and dealer installed options do not figure in those calculations.
-- Edited by BiggarView on Monday 31st of July 2017 10:41:24 AM
You are correct. When your coach comes out of the factory it will have a sticker stating the dry weight and the Gross Vehicle Weight Rating. It will also state the Cargo Carrying Capacity ( CCC )weight. If you get a washer and dryer you need to subract it from the CCC number. After you use the washer it will have remaining water in it so it will weigh more than it did when you bought it, probably. Add a generator and subtract more weight. Account for at least a 50% amount of water in your fresh water tank. So if you have a 100 gallon FW tank like me, its another 50 x 8.34lbs = 417 lbs. Before you know it you are at your limit and you haven't added much cargo! Some of the newer 5th wheel coaches like New Horizons triple axle coaches have lots of CCC. Folks on here like Neil and Bill can attest to that.
Then you have to start thinking about how much weight you have on each tire of the coach since most coaches are heavier on one side due to the kitchen slide with residential fridge. My driver side is much heavier since I have a kitchen with residential fridge, entertainment center slideout, and washer/dryer king bed headboard slide, all on that side. Many things to think about.
-- Edited by Bruce and Robin on Monday 31st of July 2017 10:14:09 AM
Some terms and definitions that might help! See sample sticker below for a 5th wheel RV. Or the dealer might also have a tag on the unit, but usually only UVW and maybe pin weight.
GVWR (Gross Vehicle Weight Rating) means the maximum allowable weight of the fully loaded vehicle, including liquids, passengers, cargo and the tongue weight of any towed vehicle. Note: The tow vehicle and RV each have a separate GVWR.
This and all Ratings cannot be changed or exceeded (legally) – they are maximum allowable limits determined by the manufacturer in the design of the vehicle.
UVW (Unloaded Vehicle Weight) is the weight of the unit as built at the factory including LP gas, with full fuel tanks, engine oil and coolants (latter part only applies to tow vehicle or MHs). The UVW does not include cargo, fresh water, occupants or dealer-installed accessories. Those accessories could be anything from washer/dryer, generator, solar, more batteries, etc.
So, now you get to what is important for your stuff.
CCC (Cargo Carrying Capacity), used Sept 2000 – present [NCC Net Carrying Capacity was used before 2000], means GVWR minus the following: UVW, full fresh (potable) water weight (including that for the water heater), full LP gas weight, and in the case of tow vehicles and MHs the number of people (154lb x No. of people). Note: Remember that optional accessories or equipment not included in the UVW will take up part of the Cargo Carrying Capacity. Add more options means less weight capacity for your stuff.
If this toy hauler is towed with empty water and waste tanks, it can carry 2,302 lbs.
If the fresh and hot water tanks are full and waste tanks are empty, it can hold just 1,372 lbs.
If it weight something and you want it in/on your RV it counts against CCC!
Good luck with your search.
-- Edited by IrishRover on Monday 31st of July 2017 06:02:18 PM
Gerry: Not to put too fine a point on it, but I guess I will. Usually the UVW includes full LP gas tanks, because, they can't be off-loaded. That is, unlike fresh water, one can't drain them on the ground to off-load weight. So normally those are considered in the UVW as full.
But to your point - Absolutely many 5ers, including Toy Haulers, once all the extra's are included have little CCC for your stuff. Air conditioners are extras, BTW. This is especially true on some higher end rigs that do not list realistic CCC's on the websites. Dealers are also known to add extra's like W/D or a second AC and not put on a supplemental sticker for the new, reduced, CCC prior to sale. I've personally seen higher end rigs come off the line with only 1,100lbs of CCC on the sticker - and that's with no fresh water.
There maybe others, but to my knowledge the only RV manufacture that specifically guarantees 3,000 lb minimum CCC for the rig as delivered to the first owner is New Horizons for the Majestic line. Spacecraft by default probably does the same thing or something similar. If anyone knows specifically a production line 5er / TH that has a similar guarantee with all included options do speak up. Not selling a NH. Just pointing out true, realistic CCC is very hard to determine from "specs" on a website.
Bill
This quote is from FMVSS 571.120, paragraph S10.4.2. This rule has been used since 2007.
"The weight value for load carrying capacity on the RV load carrying capacity labels must be displayed to the nearest kilogram with conversion to the nearest pound and must be such that the vehicle's weight does not exceed its GVWR when loaded with the stated load carrying capacity. The UVW and the GVWR used to determine the RV's load carrying capacity must reflect the weights and design of the motor home or RV trailer as configured for delivery to the dealer/service facility. If applicable, the weight of full propane tanks must be included in the RV's UVW and the weight of on-board potable water must be treated as cargo."
Unfortunately lowering the CCC is a recent sales gimmick for towables. As strange as this may sound, I've seen manufacturers simply switch the running gear on a TT from one year to the next to get the GVWR down to the "half ton towable" range. Same exact trailer as the year before, but instead of it having 4,500lbs of carrying capacity and a GVWR or 11,000 lbs, with 2 - 5,200 lb axles and 15" wheels, they swap it out with 3,500lb axles and 14" wheels which lowers the GVWR to around 7,500 lbs, leaving only 1,000lbs CCC, but now they can advertise it as "half ton towable."
Crazy, no?
Chip
If I were purchasing a new RV today, I would write into the contract the minimum Cargo Carrying Capacity (after full water, after all ordered options) that the RV would be delivered with—no matter what is shared verbally or in marketing materials. I know too many people that were told they would have a larger cargo capacity than what was delivered (e.g., Fifthwheels and Class A Motorhomes). For example, a friend’s new Class A diesel pushers was overweight on their front axle, BEFORE any cargo was added (and their available cargo carrying capacity was approx. 1,000 lbs.)—that couple ultimately did not take delivery of their new RV for various reasons.
Lynn
-- Edited by Lynn and Ed on Wednesday 2nd of August 2017 12:04:28 AM
The FMVSS have requirements for the manufacturer to use proper tires and rims for the gross axle weight rating (GAWR) and the gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR). The manufacturer may determine the GVWR by adding cargo capacity (if any) to the curb weight of the vehicle as manufactured. The wise consumer, before purchase, will determine if the vehicle has sufficient cargo capacity to carry the weight of water, additional equipment (such as televisions, and microwave ovens), and luggage. The manufacturer’s certification label must show the GVWR. The GVWR must not be exceeded by overloading the vehicle. There is little the government can do to assist a consumer who has purchased a vehicle that has insufficient cargo capacity for its intended use.
To add to my prior posting-- if the minimum CCC (that the manufacturer/dealer communicated you would receive) is written into the contract, and the RV that is delivered has less CCC – the outcomes could be:
a) The manufacturer/dealer, at their cost, increases the capacity by upgrading the tires, axles, hitch, or other component(s) that would be needed to reach the minimum CCC.
b) If that is not possible (e.g., the RV frame is the weak link) or they otherwise decline to fix the RV, then you can walk away from the purchase, since the contract was not fulfilled.*
If the CCC is not included within the contract, you are relying on the ethics and business practices of the manufacture/dealer to either fix the RV or refund your money (i.e., that clearly can happen, as it did with my prior Class A DP example, but not something that should be counted upon). What might happen is you will be forced to take possession of the RV (or walk away from all the money you have already provided them) and make upgrades at your cost, to increase the CCC.
Related tip: Do not take possession of or make your final payment on a new RV until you have your RV’s final weights in writing.
Lynn
* I am not a lawyer, so this is solely an assumption and you should seek appropriate legal counsel, since other contract language, state laws or other mitigating points might nullify your ability to recover all funds that had already been provided to the manufacturer/dealer.
-- Edited by Lynn and Ed on Friday 4th of August 2017 01:03:09 PM
Yes, it is crazy. Spoke to a manufacturer rep (not mine but no brand will be identified) who told me they rate their GVWR to keep people out of "special licensing range" (the need to get a class A license). He implied that the rig was capable of "more" but offered no specifics. I suggested that two 7,000 lbs axles with a 25% pin weight implies a GVWR that should be about 17,500 ... he nodded and said "that's probably in the ballpark". So it's not always an engineering "safety" issue, sometimes it's a marketing "sales" issue (in this one case, but I suspect this might be an industry "don't ask don't tell thing").
-- Edited by RonC on Friday 4th of August 2017 06:19:27 PM
That sounds crazy, that a Mfr would "rate" a rig so as to keep people from requiring special licencing. It doesn't seem to serve any logical purpose, except to drive customers to smaller rigs out of some irrational fear that somehow a special class A licence is a bad thing to need and or have. Mfrs protecting us from ourselves out of a sense of contrived compassion for the buyer's perceived fear of a simple testing requirement? A class A license qualified buyer would make a better customer IMHO. Properly rating the rig as to its actual limits would be better for both the mfr and the customer... again JHMO.
on edit... OK now I see the plan... underrate the rig so the customer buys an unsuitably smaller rig and then comes back at a later date to buy a larger rig that better suits the buyers actual needs. Why sell only one rig to prospective customers when you can sell two or maybe three.... Brilliant!
-- Edited by BiggarView on Friday 4th of August 2017 04:02:57 PM
yes in a nut shell;;
I find the easiest to do is weigh the unit and look up the GVWR then after you add the fixtures gen set and W/D reweigh it and now u have your CCC
that's still available Of course u have to watch things like water level propane level etc at time of weigh and have a reasonable idea how to compensate
on your final calculations