We're looking at a 5'er with a GW of 14,000 pounds. We want to get a truck first, are are looking at 2011-2014 Ford crew cabs. Are we going to need the F450, or will an F350 do? Or is there really that much difference between them?
RonC said
07:40 PM Nov 5, 2016
An F350 dually will definately work. If I could suggest you go to a 2015 because it's got 40 more HP, 60 lbs-ft more torque and a MUCH better exhaust brake than the 2011-2014's. I had a 2014 and now have a 2016 F350 dually. The extra power is good, but the improved exhaust brake is GREAT. Going down big mountains is where the improved exhaust brake really shines. I know it's more expensive because it's newer, but in this instance it is worth the difference. The dually should be your choice regardless of the year you decide to buy. Good Luck, hope this helps.
kb0zke said
08:15 PM Nov 5, 2016
Thanks, Ron. I suspect that we'll probably end up closer to the 2011 than the 2014, just by the prices.
Interestingly, when we were just talking about maybe trading there were lots of F350 and F450 trucks available, and not much difference in price. Now that I want to buy one they are getting scarce, and the ones that are there are at least 1000 miles away.
RonC said
08:40 PM Nov 5, 2016
Go to "Powerstrokehelp.com" there is a lot of info and videos. 2011 was the first year for the then "new" 6.7L Powerstroke. It had a plastic oil pan and the turbo had ceramic ball bearings. Both were problematic. I think the 2012 got the aluminum oil pan, but not sure if the 2012 got the turbo bearings fixed, but I think so. Those early development years are usually not good for new engines, transmissions, etc. Ford's 2013 - 2014 6.7's are very reliable. 2015 and 2016 are monsters and hell for stout. 2017 is TBD. Powerstokehelp.com has a lot of good info on the various years.
-- Edited by RonC on Saturday 5th of November 2016 08:41:38 PM
Cummins12V98 said
09:20 AM Nov 6, 2016
A 3500 RAM SRW with CUMMINS, Aisin and factory rear air ride will be more than enough truck at 14K GVWR.
RAM uses the CP3 Bosch fuel injection pump (VERY DEPENDABLE), Ford uses the problematic CP4 Bosch pump (do a google search), GM used the CP4 pump, now for 2017 they have dumped it and has gone to a Denso pump. GM was tired of having to warranty so many so they changed. Ford told many to "pound sand" when having a pump warranty claim (google search).
Seriously, go LOOK at all three. I suggested the same recently on RV.NET to a person that was "planning" to buy a Ford. He asked many questions and went and drove them and came back saying he bought a RAM.
RonC said
05:21 PM Nov 6, 2016
A 2011 RAM? You sure about that?
Neil and Connie said
06:11 PM Nov 6, 2016
As my friend Bill Napier always says…it depends and ya gotta run the numbers. What you need to know is the loaded trailer weight and pin weight…either actuals or decent estimates based on as delivered weight, adding cargo up to the CCC, water, etc. Then you need to figure out which year and specific model truck you're considering.
Then you need the towing guide from the truck maker appropriate to that model and year…and you need to use the correct year as things change.
Stick the numbers in the spreadsheet…there are plenty of them available on the web or either Bill or I will give you a copy of our base spreadsheet. Run the numbers and see how they come out.
Don't forget to take into account fuel, passengers, and bed/truck carried cargo along with aux fuel tank if you're putting one in and add those to the as delivered weight of the truck. Technically it would be best to weight the truck with all that stuff in it…but since you don't have the truck yet you can estimate how much of either thing you add goes on the front or rear axle…for instance front seat passengers are about 1/3 the way from the front to rear axle so 2/3 of that weight goes on the front axle. Fuel tank is about in the middle so split that evenly. Pin weight goes 100% on the rear axle assuming the hitch is installed as it should be either directly over the axle or maybe an inch forward…definitely don't want it aft of the rear axle.
You didn't say whether your 14,000 pounds was loaded or not…you called it GW which I assume means gross weight but that's not generally one of the acronyms that most talk about…GVWR is more typical. My guess is that if that's loaded that a 350 would be plenty of truck…but again that's just a swag based on running a bunch o' numbers through Excel. The 450 generally has better brakes and turning radius but depending on exact year/configuration the 350 sometimes actually has a 'better' spec on some numbers than a 450 does.
We drive a RAM 5500HD now but had a 2012 450 before…haven't been in one of the new 450s with the improved exhaust brake but I can tell you that the one on the 5500 is muey bueno…almost no actual application of brakes beyond the engine for the vast majority of descents.
kb0zke said
09:53 PM Nov 6, 2016
Thanks, Neil. Yes, GW (gross weight) is GVWR (Gross Vehicle Weight Rating). When I'm playing "what if" I'll use that GVWR as the weight of the coach. Actually, the 14,000 pounds is slightly high. The actual number is 13,960 pounds. I find it easier to just round that up to 14,000 pounds. I also use 25% of that weight for the pin weight since any truck that can handle the 3500 pounds (in this case) can handle the 2800 pounds if the pin weight was at 20%.
For various reasons we're committed to a Ford truck, so the choice is an F350 or F450. When we first started talking about switching from our MH to a towable there were lots of F250, 350, and 450 trucks available. Of course, now that we're actually looking for a truck there are few suitable trucks available. At this point I'm thinking that when we find the right truck we'll get it and then pick the trailer based on that. If we end up with an F450 I would assume that most of what we find would be a safe bet for the truck, but if we get an F350 we should keep GW to 14,000 or less.
The age is based on our bank account. Yes, I'd love to go buy a brand new truck but that just isn't going to happen. Same with the trailer. As I said earlier, we'll probably be closer to the 2011 end than the 2014 end of our range. Even then we're kind of pushing the budget a bit to get the new engine.
RonC said
10:54 PM Nov 6, 2016
David,
If Neil didn't make it clear enough, the weights and ratings MUST be considered. The most often "violated" weight rating is the RAWR (rear axle weight rating). Next is the CGVWR (combined gross vehicle weight rating). Most others fall into place. Get those right, and life will be good. If you are "out of bounds" on any one of the RATINGS that will attract lawyers like ants to sugar in the event of an accident/incident. Your Insurance Company will also have interest that will align with the interests of the lawyers. The trucks will almost always easily "handle" the weights, the court system is quite another matter. Get legal and it will be better for you!!
soos said
10:59 PM Nov 6, 2016
When looking at trucks in that year range, I believe the 450 has a larger front axle, which gives it a huge advantage with the turning radius. Just keep it mind when you are looking because its an enormous benefit.
Bill and Linda said
08:01 AM Nov 7, 2016
kb0zke wrote:
We're looking at a 5'er with a GW of 14,000 pounds. We want to get a truck first, are are looking at 2011-2014 Ford crew cabs. Are we going to need the F450, or will an F350 do? Or is there really that much difference between them?
David, actually for a 14,000 lb trailer either works. But, the F-350, if you look at the numbers, actually has a higher rear axle rating then the F-450. IF you are planning on "ever" putting a hauler bed and/or aux fuel tank the F-350 is a better choice due to the higher rear axle rating. I know this sounds strange but the numbers-are-the-numbers and until 2017 the F-450 "pickup" had a fairly low, in comparison to other bands, rear axle capacity. Only 9,100 lbs. The F-350 could be ordered with the wide front cab which gave it the better turning radius like the F-450. But I doubt you will find one used.
For the size trailer you are looking at any F-350 / 3500HD truck would be fine as long as it is dual rear wheels. I'd not focus on the F-350 or F-450 decision and look for the very best used truck you can find including rear axle ratio etc. Take Neil's comments to heart and as a suggestion, forget about the badge on the side and start looking at the ratings, mileage, etc. If it were me, I'd only consider trucks 2013 and newer. 2011 had a lot of changes and 2012 is where they started getting them worked out. Same of any brand of "first year truck" not just Ford. But that's just my opinion.
Summary: the rear axle rating is usually the limiting number with a fiver, not the "how much can it tow" or the GCVW. Just is.
We're looking at a 5'er with a GW of 14,000 pounds. We want to get a truck first, are are looking at 2011-2014 Ford crew cabs. Are we going to need the F450, or will an F350 do? Or is there really that much difference between them?
Interestingly, when we were just talking about maybe trading there were lots of F350 and F450 trucks available, and not much difference in price. Now that I want to buy one they are getting scarce, and the ones that are there are at least 1000 miles away.
Go to "Powerstrokehelp.com" there is a lot of info and videos. 2011 was the first year for the then "new" 6.7L Powerstroke. It had a plastic oil pan and the turbo had ceramic ball bearings. Both were problematic. I think the 2012 got the aluminum oil pan, but not sure if the 2012 got the turbo bearings fixed, but I think so. Those early development years are usually not good for new engines, transmissions, etc. Ford's 2013 - 2014 6.7's are very reliable. 2015 and 2016 are monsters and hell for stout. 2017 is TBD. Powerstokehelp.com has a lot of good info on the various years.
-- Edited by RonC on Saturday 5th of November 2016 08:41:38 PM
RAM uses the CP3 Bosch fuel injection pump (VERY DEPENDABLE), Ford uses the problematic CP4 Bosch pump (do a google search), GM used the CP4 pump, now for 2017 they have dumped it and has gone to a Denso pump. GM was tired of having to warranty so many so they changed. Ford told many to "pound sand" when having a pump warranty claim (google search).
Seriously, go LOOK at all three. I suggested the same recently on RV.NET to a person that was "planning" to buy a Ford. He asked many questions and went and drove them and came back saying he bought a RAM.
As my friend Bill Napier always says…it depends and ya gotta run the numbers. What you need to know is the loaded trailer weight and pin weight…either actuals or decent estimates based on as delivered weight, adding cargo up to the CCC, water, etc. Then you need to figure out which year and specific model truck you're considering.
Then you need the towing guide from the truck maker appropriate to that model and year…and you need to use the correct year as things change.
Stick the numbers in the spreadsheet…there are plenty of them available on the web or either Bill or I will give you a copy of our base spreadsheet. Run the numbers and see how they come out.
Don't forget to take into account fuel, passengers, and bed/truck carried cargo along with aux fuel tank if you're putting one in and add those to the as delivered weight of the truck. Technically it would be best to weight the truck with all that stuff in it…but since you don't have the truck yet you can estimate how much of either thing you add goes on the front or rear axle…for instance front seat passengers are about 1/3 the way from the front to rear axle so 2/3 of that weight goes on the front axle. Fuel tank is about in the middle so split that evenly. Pin weight goes 100% on the rear axle assuming the hitch is installed as it should be either directly over the axle or maybe an inch forward…definitely don't want it aft of the rear axle.
You didn't say whether your 14,000 pounds was loaded or not…you called it GW which I assume means gross weight but that's not generally one of the acronyms that most talk about…GVWR is more typical. My guess is that if that's loaded that a 350 would be plenty of truck…but again that's just a swag based on running a bunch o' numbers through Excel. The 450 generally has better brakes and turning radius but depending on exact year/configuration the 350 sometimes actually has a 'better' spec on some numbers than a 450 does.
We drive a RAM 5500HD now but had a 2012 450 before…haven't been in one of the new 450s with the improved exhaust brake but I can tell you that the one on the 5500 is muey bueno…almost no actual application of brakes beyond the engine for the vast majority of descents.
For various reasons we're committed to a Ford truck, so the choice is an F350 or F450. When we first started talking about switching from our MH to a towable there were lots of F250, 350, and 450 trucks available. Of course, now that we're actually looking for a truck there are few suitable trucks available. At this point I'm thinking that when we find the right truck we'll get it and then pick the trailer based on that. If we end up with an F450 I would assume that most of what we find would be a safe bet for the truck, but if we get an F350 we should keep GW to 14,000 or less.
The age is based on our bank account. Yes, I'd love to go buy a brand new truck but that just isn't going to happen. Same with the trailer. As I said earlier, we'll probably be closer to the 2011 end than the 2014 end of our range. Even then we're kind of pushing the budget a bit to get the new engine.
If Neil didn't make it clear enough, the weights and ratings MUST be considered. The most often "violated" weight rating is the RAWR (rear axle weight rating). Next is the CGVWR (combined gross vehicle weight rating). Most others fall into place. Get those right, and life will be good. If you are "out of bounds" on any one of the RATINGS that will attract lawyers like ants to sugar in the event of an accident/incident. Your Insurance Company will also have interest that will align with the interests of the lawyers. The trucks will almost always easily "handle" the weights, the court system is quite another matter. Get legal and it will be better for you!!
David, actually for a 14,000 lb trailer either works. But, the F-350, if you look at the numbers, actually has a higher rear axle rating then the F-450. IF you are planning on "ever" putting a hauler bed and/or aux fuel tank the F-350 is a better choice due to the higher rear axle rating. I know this sounds strange but the numbers-are-the-numbers and until 2017 the F-450 "pickup" had a fairly low, in comparison to other bands, rear axle capacity. Only 9,100 lbs. The F-350 could be ordered with the wide front cab which gave it the better turning radius like the F-450. But I doubt you will find one used.
For the size trailer you are looking at any F-350 / 3500HD truck would be fine as long as it is dual rear wheels. I'd not focus on the F-350 or F-450 decision and look for the very best used truck you can find including rear axle ratio etc. Take Neil's comments to heart and as a suggestion, forget about the badge on the side and start looking at the ratings, mileage, etc. If it were me, I'd only consider trucks 2013 and newer. 2011 had a lot of changes and 2012 is where they started getting them worked out. Same of any brand of "first year truck" not just Ford. But that's just my opinion.
Summary: the rear axle rating is usually the limiting number with a fiver, not the "how much can it tow" or the GCVW. Just is.
Good hunting.