We are looking into relatively heavy fifth wheel trailers, most likely GVWR of 19,500 or 24,000 pounds. I keep going back and forth between the Ram 3500HD and the 5500. Both are "capable" of towing either vehicle, but the 5500 offers a significantly higher margin of safety for my family (very specifically: heavier duty brakes). Just the other day, I visited my local Ram dealer and spoke to the fleet salesman to ask some questions that I had. He even had a 5500 Tradesman with a Scelzi hauler body on the back lot that I got to test drive. During our conversation, we had been talking about licensing and registration and in response to a comment about domiciling in another state, he mentioned the need to still pay attention to individual state laws. He had a driver towing a load from Northern California to Reno, NV. He got pulled over in CA, but because his destination was NV, the highway patrol found that he did not meet the NV requirements and hit him with an $8,800 fine. So the salesman, mentioned the likely need to get something on the truck stating "Not for Hire" and the possibility of a D.O.T. number to help avoid issues when driving across state lines. He said he wasn't 100% sure on that when it came to driving a 5500 for personal use, but was concerned enough to bring it up.
Several of you are driving 5500s or other class IV or V "pickup" trucks, have you had any issues?
We currently live in Northern California and I know that in CA I will need a "non-commercial Class A" license due to fifth wheel weight. I've read that some have had more issues with insurance of a commercial-grade truck than anything else. We are giving South Dakota a serious look for our domicile, so a couple of these issues may be more about timing -- buying sooner means CA sales taxes, licensing, vehicle registration, insurance; buying later (as close to full-time ready and capable of leaving the state of CA as possible) means dealing with SD for all of that.
Anyways, the few threads discussing commercial-grade trucks were several years old and I thought I would get an update on this topic from those of you who drive these trucks and how you register and insure them and whether or not you've had any issues with the variety of state laws regarding your commercial-grade truck.
Bill and Linda said
06:08 AM Jun 7, 2016
The state of your legal residence determines the Grade / Class of drivers license required by total combined weight of the vehicle or in some cases the weight of the trailer. My state requires a non-commercial Class "A" license which I have. Same test as the commercial CDL Class "A" with the exception of one section of the written test dealing with log books.
The reason the driver was "fined" was likely because the "load" mentioned in the OP was not "private." That is he was operating for commercial purposes in some regard.
Our truck, a Class 5, is registered as a private vehicle. This is not an issue but the method of registration can vary depending on the state in which you reside (your legal residence) and register / license the truck.
Some HDT drivers, especially, do place a "Not For Hire" sign on the truck. It might save some trouble. But for the 4500 / 5500 trucks that are MDT's but "packaged" as looking like a "pickup" this shouldn't be necessary, IMO. But one can do as one thinks best.
It is important to select the state of domicile carefully and correctly. Some make it very difficult with true class 4 and up trucks. Most don't but registration and insurance is important and research is critical. For one, SD makes this pretty easy. A few make it very hard - and expensive.
Simple answer to the question of "issues" with the commercial grade truck: No, not one.
On edit I thought I should add: In states that do required a Class "A" non-CDL license this is required (generally) on the weight of the total vehicle when in operation. So if one is driving a 5500HD without a trailer attached a Class "C" or generically put, a "car" driver's license is all that is required; in some states referred to as a Class "C" non-commercial. Therefore if the person driving the 5500HD RAM is not towing the big trailer no Class "A" is required. The weight break over point is generally 26,001lbs combined weight.
I also wanted to note that Howard and Linda have a true, Class 4 commercial truck. (2005 F-450 commercial. Not the F-450 "pickup. They are significantly different as to ratings.) I haven't noticed any posting over many years as to particular difficulties on their part as pertains to the truck being "commercial." But it does depend on the state of residence, etc.
This link might be helpful as a general guide line regarding license requirement:
As a side note, our insurance costs actually went down when we upgraded from our Class 3 to the Class 5 truck. That was because of a product from Progressive Insurance via Miller Insurance which allows the RV trailer and Class 5 truck, when covered together, to be insured as a "motorhome" with more favorable rates. Others have had similar results with other underwriters but naturally YMMV.
-- Edited by Bill and Linda on Tuesday 7th of June 2016 10:22:12 AM
Cummins12V98 said
07:21 AM Jun 7, 2016
My RV weighs 23K I just came west on 76 thru Denver and Vail where the grades are 7%. The truck handles the weight very well. My combined weight Cat Scales is 32,950#. I only touched the brakes a couple times with the trans locked in 3rd and cruise set to 50. When it would slowly get up to 55 I would touch the braked for a couple seconds and hit resume on the cruise. NEVER have I felt unstable even in 30mph head or side winds.
The Bear II said
08:39 AM Jun 7, 2016
I live in southern California and tow a 15,000lb 5th wheel with a Chevrolet Kodiak C4500. I've been towing with it since 2007.
Never had a problem with the CHP and I have driven by at least 50 weigh stations with or without the 5th wheel in tow.
Full disclosure my C4500 crew cab does have a pickup bed on it so it looks more like a pickup truck than a commercial truck. I'm guessing this is why I've never had a problem.
Many of the RV'ers who have had MDT (class 4-6) tow vehicles in the past have moved on to HDT (class 7 & 8 ) as a tow vehicle. The HDTs with a sleeper if setup properly can be registered as motorhomes in many states. That does away with many of the rules and regulations pertaining to a commercial use truck.
The HDT Rv'ers all claim the ride is much better than an MDT and of course it's a lot more stable and safe since the trucks can handle up to 80,000lbs.
I had a 2012 Silverado dually 3500 towing my Teton. It was a smooth ride on a smooth road only. Towed down I-10 to Baton Rogue area and was beat up badly even to the point my head hit the top of cab. Came back down that same road with the Freightliner and didn't even notice it.
RonC said
09:50 AM Sep 1, 2016
For those of you who have an exhaust brake that can be turned on and off ... when you tow, do you just turn it on or do you just use it when needed? Right now, I just use "tow haul" and turn the exhaust brake on whenever I'm towing, just don't know if I'm doing right or not. BTW, exhaust brake is a very good thing.
-- Edited by RonC on Thursday 1st of September 2016 05:41:53 PM
Cummins12V98 said
10:05 AM Sep 1, 2016
EB and TH on ALL the time.
Bill and Linda said
12:31 PM Sep 1, 2016
RonC wrote:
For those of you who have an exhaust brake that can be turn on and off ... when you tow, do you just turn it on or do you just use it when needed? Right now, I just use "tow haul" and turn the exhaust brake on whenever I'm towing, just don't know if I'm doing right or not. BTW, exhaust brake is a very good thing.
In the case of most LD trucks such as yours, EB on all the time - just saves the brakes and gives better control - TH on only when towing. No reason, IMO when running solo - light weight, to have the transmission change the shift points to higher values. Uses more fuel and can make for harsher shifting due to higher RPMs. This is especially true for pickup trucks with rear end ratios like 4.1 and down, etc. But leaving TH on running solo won't hurt anything. BTW, I think you will find the manual makes the same recommendations concerning TH. My opinion and how I have driven all my trucks with EB / TH.
(Ron, the above is as pertains to your model year and type of truck as it is equipped.)
-- Edited by Bill and Linda on Saturday 3rd of September 2016 03:21:57 PM
Neil and Connie said
12:50 PM Sep 3, 2016
RAM 6600HD...brake in Full mode all the time…it's mode survives an ignition off cycle. There's also an Auto mode that only does braking when you hit the brake pedal where the Full mode starts as soon as you take your foot off the gas. I leave it in Full so that the truck always brakes the same way.
Tow haul does not survive an ignition off cycle and only gets used when towing. What it does (mostly) is change the shift points and other engine programming stuff for better performance when towing or hauling…so no real need for it when running solo. It won't hurt anything though AFAIK…I had it on one day while solo and frankly didn't really notice anything different. The brake on the other hand…you definitely notice the difference between Full/Auto/Off.
RonC said
03:17 PM Sep 3, 2016
Agree on the feel of the EB being noticeable. Not much coasting goes on with the EB on. Ford's tow haul hangs on to each gear a little longer on the way up and downshifts more aggressively as you brake to a stop and both are noticeable compared to when tow haul is off. I don't think using tow haul all the time will harm anything, but it does give the truck a different feel.
Bill and Linda said
03:35 PM Sep 3, 2016
Neil and Connie wrote:
RAM 6600HD...brake in Full mode all the time…it's mode survives an ignition off cycle. There's also an Auto mode that only does braking when you hit the brake pedal where the Full mode starts as soon as you take your foot off the gas. I leave it in Full so that the truck always brakes the same way.
Tow haul does not survive an ignition off cycle and only gets used when towing. What it does (mostly) is change the shift points and other engine programming stuff for better performance when towing or hauling…so no real need for it when running solo. It won't hurt anything though AFAIK…I had it on one day while solo and frankly didn't really notice anything different. The brake on the other hand…you definitely notice the difference between Full/Auto/Off.
Neil, I agree there isn't a lot of difference solo with TH on with our trucks being so geared down. We're in 6th gear - double overdrive - by 38 odd MPH solo - LOL. In the solo condition only that is. Towing, TH will make a difference as to torque converter lockup point which is a good thing for lower transmission temps. (Of which ours run very cool all the time.) But on some of the trucks with lighter gearing I've noticed it can be more jerky in TH with the RPMs going much higher to the shift points. Again, a choice. But that's why - based on some manual reading and as you noted on a key start TH is OFF by default. So some engineer thought that was a good idea.
Neil and Connie said
02:46 PM Sep 8, 2016
My guess is that since the brake stays where you put it and Tow Haul turns off that RAM wants us to only engage T/H when towing and brake they have no opinion and left it to user preference for Auto or Full. I might try putting it in Auto for awhile while we are down here in FL and see how much difference I really notice.
Bill and Linda said
10:20 AM Sep 9, 2016
Neil and Connie wrote:
My guess is that since the brake stays where you put it and Tow Haul turns off that RAM wants us to only engage T/H when towing and brake they have no opinion and left it to user preference for Auto or Full. I might try putting it in Auto for awhile while we are down here in FL and see how much difference I really notice.
Running solo you will notice quite a difference in Auto based on my experience. In Auto, when letting off on the power, the truck will coast without any exhaust braking. In Full, as you know, the second you come off power the exhaust brake will activated. In town, stop and go, sometimes Auto is nice. Other times I run Full. Just depends on the conditions. A choice.
I agree with your opinion the TH being re-set to "Off" on engine start. The engineers think it should be off unless the truck is hauling a heavy load, otherwise it wouldn't default to "Off."
Dave and Denise said
08:43 PM Sep 12, 2016
In regards to licensing, once you determine your state of domicile you need to make sure the laws of that state are researched and applied to your specific circumstance. The chart that was provided in an earlier post in this thread was correctly introduced to you as a "general guide line". I went through this nightmare earlier this year only to be given wrong information by the local DMV, State Capitol licensing department and other well meaning and well informed individuals.
Here is an example of the point I am trying to make.
The link - http://changingears.com/rv-sec-state-rv-license.shtml -states for Florida - "Driver's license manual states that a Class E license is valid up to 26,000 lb GVWR. However, Florida statute 322.53(2)(d) exempts all RV's from CDL requirement, regardless of weight."
Note the last sentence above states "all RV's". However, the Florida Statute does not use the term "all RV's", but the state statutes uses the following terminology - "Drivers of recreational vehicles, as defined in s. 320.01."
If you then refer to s. 320.01 you will find the definition of the various RV's. My example below is only for a fifth wheel, which is defined as:
"The “fifth-wheel trailer,” which is a vehicular unit mounted on wheels, designed to provide temporary living quarters for recreational, camping, or travel use, of such size or weight as not to require a special highway movement permit, of gross trailer area not to exceed 400 square feet in the setup mode, and designed to be towed by a motorized vehicle that contains a towing mechanism that is mounted above or forward of the tow vehicle’s rear axle."
When I read the definition above it appears to me that any fifth wheel that exceeds 400 square feet in setup mode does not meet the RV exemption. Honestly, I don't know if there are any fifth wheel trailers this large, but if they are then I believe a CDL is required in Florida. Furthermore, I wouldn't even want to begin an argument that the definition only includes part time use and not full timers, since it states "temporary living quarters".
Bottom line, make sure you understand your state law for licensing, even if you must pay someone to research this for you. Don't settle for anything short of specific state statute citations. I suspect, that no matter your good intentions if you were not properly licensed and you were in an accident that there could be some very serious consequences.
All the above is just my opinion.
Bill and Linda said
07:20 AM Sep 13, 2016
Dave and Denise wrote:
I went through this nightmare earlier this year only to be given wrong information by the local DMV, State Capitol licensing department and other well meaning and well informed individuals.
Here is an example of the point I am trying to make.
The link - http://changingears.com/rv-sec-state-rv-license.shtml -states for Florida - "Driver's license manual states that a Class E license is valid up to 26,000 lb GVWR. However, Florida statute 322.53(2)(d) exempts all RV's from CDL requirement, regardless of weight."
Note the last sentence above states "all RV's". However, the Florida Statute does not use the term "all RV's", but the state statutes uses the following terminology - "Drivers of recreational vehicles, as defined in s. 320.01."
If you then refer to s. 320.01 you will find the definition of the various RV's. My example below is only for a fifth wheel, which is defined as:
"The “fifth-wheel trailer,” which is a vehicular unit mounted on wheels, designed to provide temporary living quarters for recreational, camping, or travel use, of such size or weight as not to require a special highway movement permit, of gross trailer area not to exceed 400 square feet in the setup mode, and designed to be towed by a motorized vehicle that contains a towing mechanism that is mounted above or forward of the tow vehicle’s rear axle."
When I read the definition above it appears to me that any fifth wheel that exceeds 400 square feet in setup mode does not meet the RV exemption. Honestly, I don't know if there are any fifth wheel trailers this large, but if they are then I believe a CDL is required in Florida. Furthermore, I wouldn't even want to begin an argument that the definition only includes part time use and not full timers, since it states "temporary living quarters".
Bottom line, make sure you understand your state law for licensing, even if you must pay someone to research this for you. Don't settle for anything short of specific state statute citations. I suspect, that no matter your good intentions if you were not properly licensed and you were in an accident that there could be some very serious consequences.
Dave, welcome to the club of those who had to "educate" the local DMV as to the actual rules of the state. This is very common and so many don't get the proper license and are indeed driving without a valid driver's license for their particular state. This has been posted many times over the years on this forum. It just has to be resurrected from time-to-time.
As to the 400 square feet comment above - yes there are now many RV 5th wheels that exceed 400 square feet when set up. But there were few when this regulation was written. One has to decide how this square footage definition might apply to them.
Your last comment is on point and one that has been made over and over on this forum. That is to understand your state laws and do your own research. (And never believe an RV or truck salesman.) I had to contact the head of the DMV in the State Capitol to verify my understanding of the law many years ago. He confirmed I was correct and the local DMV branch wasn't. He also sort of chuckled when he commented that at least there was one person trying to obey the licensing laws. He gave me his additional contact information to provide to the local DMV office should I have an issue getting my Class A non-CDL - which is needed in my state.
All of the above are just words to the wise, especially for those getting big 5ers, etc. These are not just "travel trailers" any longer.
Hi All,
We are looking into relatively heavy fifth wheel trailers, most likely GVWR of 19,500 or 24,000 pounds. I keep going back and forth between the Ram 3500HD and the 5500. Both are "capable" of towing either vehicle, but the 5500 offers a significantly higher margin of safety for my family (very specifically: heavier duty brakes). Just the other day, I visited my local Ram dealer and spoke to the fleet salesman to ask some questions that I had. He even had a 5500 Tradesman with a Scelzi hauler body on the back lot that I got to test drive. During our conversation, we had been talking about licensing and registration and in response to a comment about domiciling in another state, he mentioned the need to still pay attention to individual state laws. He had a driver towing a load from Northern California to Reno, NV. He got pulled over in CA, but because his destination was NV, the highway patrol found that he did not meet the NV requirements and hit him with an $8,800 fine. So the salesman, mentioned the likely need to get something on the truck stating "Not for Hire" and the possibility of a D.O.T. number to help avoid issues when driving across state lines. He said he wasn't 100% sure on that when it came to driving a 5500 for personal use, but was concerned enough to bring it up.
Several of you are driving 5500s or other class IV or V "pickup" trucks, have you had any issues?
We currently live in Northern California and I know that in CA I will need a "non-commercial Class A" license due to fifth wheel weight. I've read that some have had more issues with insurance of a commercial-grade truck than anything else. We are giving South Dakota a serious look for our domicile, so a couple of these issues may be more about timing -- buying sooner means CA sales taxes, licensing, vehicle registration, insurance; buying later (as close to full-time ready and capable of leaving the state of CA as possible) means dealing with SD for all of that.
Anyways, the few threads discussing commercial-grade trucks were several years old and I thought I would get an update on this topic from those of you who drive these trucks and how you register and insure them and whether or not you've had any issues with the variety of state laws regarding your commercial-grade truck.
The state of your legal residence determines the Grade / Class of drivers license required by total combined weight of the vehicle or in some cases the weight of the trailer. My state requires a non-commercial Class "A" license which I have. Same test as the commercial CDL Class "A" with the exception of one section of the written test dealing with log books.
The reason the driver was "fined" was likely because the "load" mentioned in the OP was not "private." That is he was operating for commercial purposes in some regard.
Our truck, a Class 5, is registered as a private vehicle. This is not an issue but the method of registration can vary depending on the state in which you reside (your legal residence) and register / license the truck.
Some HDT drivers, especially, do place a "Not For Hire" sign on the truck. It might save some trouble. But for the 4500 / 5500 trucks that are MDT's but "packaged" as looking like a "pickup" this shouldn't be necessary, IMO. But one can do as one thinks best.
It is important to select the state of domicile carefully and correctly. Some make it very difficult with true class 4 and up trucks. Most don't but registration and insurance is important and research is critical. For one, SD makes this pretty easy. A few make it very hard - and expensive.
Simple answer to the question of "issues" with the commercial grade truck: No, not one.
On edit I thought I should add: In states that do required a Class "A" non-CDL license this is required (generally) on the weight of the total vehicle when in operation. So if one is driving a 5500HD without a trailer attached a Class "C" or generically put, a "car" driver's license is all that is required; in some states referred to as a Class "C" non-commercial. Therefore if the person driving the 5500HD RAM is not towing the big trailer no Class "A" is required. The weight break over point is generally 26,001lbs combined weight.
I also wanted to note that Howard and Linda have a true, Class 4 commercial truck. (2005 F-450 commercial. Not the F-450 "pickup. They are significantly different as to ratings.) I haven't noticed any posting over many years as to particular difficulties on their part as pertains to the truck being "commercial." But it does depend on the state of residence, etc.
This link might be helpful as a general guide line regarding license requirement:
http://changingears.com/rv-sec-state-rv-license.shtml
As a side note, our insurance costs actually went down when we upgraded from our Class 3 to the Class 5 truck. That was because of a product from Progressive Insurance via Miller Insurance which allows the RV trailer and Class 5 truck, when covered together, to be insured as a "motorhome" with more favorable rates. Others have had similar results with other underwriters but naturally YMMV.
-- Edited by Bill and Linda on Tuesday 7th of June 2016 10:22:12 AM
Never had a problem with the CHP and I have driven by at least 50 weigh stations with or without the 5th wheel in tow.
Full disclosure my C4500 crew cab does have a pickup bed on it so it looks more like a pickup truck than a commercial truck. I'm guessing this is why I've never had a problem.
Many of the RV'ers who have had MDT (class 4-6) tow vehicles in the past have moved on to HDT (class 7 & 8 ) as a tow vehicle. The HDTs with a sleeper if setup properly can be registered as motorhomes in many states. That does away with many of the rules and regulations pertaining to a commercial use truck.
The HDT Rv'ers all claim the ride is much better than an MDT and of course it's a lot more stable and safe since the trucks can handle up to 80,000lbs.
Go to www.rvnetwork.com/index.php
or to www.jackdanmayer.com/ for more info about HDTs and 5th wheel towing.
For those of you who have an exhaust brake that can be turned on and off ... when you tow, do you just turn it on or do you just use it when needed? Right now, I just use "tow haul" and turn the exhaust brake on whenever I'm towing, just don't know if I'm doing right or not. BTW, exhaust brake is a very good thing.
-- Edited by RonC on Thursday 1st of September 2016 05:41:53 PM
In the case of most LD trucks such as yours, EB on all the time - just saves the brakes and gives better control - TH on only when towing. No reason, IMO when running solo - light weight, to have the transmission change the shift points to higher values. Uses more fuel and can make for harsher shifting due to higher RPMs. This is especially true for pickup trucks with rear end ratios like 4.1 and down, etc. But leaving TH on running solo won't hurt anything. BTW, I think you will find the manual makes the same recommendations concerning TH. My opinion and how I have driven all my trucks with EB / TH.
(Ron, the above is as pertains to your model year and type of truck as it is equipped.)
-- Edited by Bill and Linda on Saturday 3rd of September 2016 03:21:57 PM
RAM 6600HD...brake in Full mode all the time…it's mode survives an ignition off cycle. There's also an Auto mode that only does braking when you hit the brake pedal where the Full mode starts as soon as you take your foot off the gas. I leave it in Full so that the truck always brakes the same way.
Tow haul does not survive an ignition off cycle and only gets used when towing. What it does (mostly) is change the shift points and other engine programming stuff for better performance when towing or hauling…so no real need for it when running solo. It won't hurt anything though AFAIK…I had it on one day while solo and frankly didn't really notice anything different. The brake on the other hand…you definitely notice the difference between Full/Auto/Off.
Neil, I agree there isn't a lot of difference solo with TH on with our trucks being so geared down. We're in 6th gear - double overdrive - by 38 odd MPH solo - LOL. In the solo condition only that is. Towing, TH will make a difference as to torque converter lockup point which is a good thing for lower transmission temps. (Of which ours run very cool all the time.) But on some of the trucks with lighter gearing I've noticed it can be more jerky in TH with the RPMs going much higher to the shift points. Again, a choice. But that's why - based on some manual reading and as you noted on a key start TH is OFF by default. So some engineer thought that was a good idea.
My guess is that since the brake stays where you put it and Tow Haul turns off that RAM wants us to only engage T/H when towing and brake they have no opinion and left it to user preference for Auto or Full. I might try putting it in Auto for awhile while we are down here in FL and see how much difference I really notice.
Running solo you will notice quite a difference in Auto based on my experience. In Auto, when letting off on the power, the truck will coast without any exhaust braking. In Full, as you know, the second you come off power the exhaust brake will activated. In town, stop and go, sometimes Auto is nice. Other times I run Full. Just depends on the conditions. A choice.
I agree with your opinion the TH being re-set to "Off" on engine start. The engineers think it should be off unless the truck is hauling a heavy load, otherwise it wouldn't default to "Off."
In regards to licensing, once you determine your state of domicile you need to make sure the laws of that state are researched and applied to your specific circumstance. The chart that was provided in an earlier post in this thread was correctly introduced to you as a "general guide line". I went through this nightmare earlier this year only to be given wrong information by the local DMV, State Capitol licensing department and other well meaning and well informed individuals.
Here is an example of the point I am trying to make.
The link - http://changingears.com/rv-sec-state-rv-license.shtml - states for Florida - "Driver's license manual states that a Class E license is valid up to 26,000 lb GVWR. However, Florida statute 322.53(2)(d) exempts all RV's from CDL requirement, regardless of weight."
Note the last sentence above states "all RV's". However, the Florida Statute does not use the term "all RV's", but the state statutes uses the following terminology - "Drivers of recreational vehicles, as defined in s. 320.01."
If you then refer to s. 320.01 you will find the definition of the various RV's. My example below is only for a fifth wheel, which is defined as:
Dave, welcome to the club of those who had to "educate" the local DMV as to the actual rules of the state. This is very common and so many don't get the proper license and are indeed driving without a valid driver's license for their particular state. This has been posted many times over the years on this forum. It just has to be resurrected from time-to-time.
As to the 400 square feet comment above - yes there are now many RV 5th wheels that exceed 400 square feet when set up. But there were few when this regulation was written. One has to decide how this square footage definition might apply to them.
Your last comment is on point and one that has been made over and over on this forum. That is to understand your state laws and do your own research. (And never believe an RV or truck salesman.) I had to contact the head of the DMV in the State Capitol to verify my understanding of the law many years ago. He confirmed I was correct and the local DMV branch wasn't. He also sort of chuckled when he commented that at least there was one person trying to obey the licensing laws. He gave me his additional contact information to provide to the local DMV office should I have an issue getting my Class A non-CDL - which is needed in my state.
All of the above are just words to the wise, especially for those getting big 5ers, etc. These are not just "travel trailers" any longer.