Beginner Solar Power Questions (for full-time boondocking)
Jonathan C said
03:26 AM Jun 3, 2016
Hello lovely people!
I am new to RV life in general and am planning to jump right into boondocking. I've been doing a lot of research online, and I've learned enough to understand that I have barely learned anything at all. There's a lot of technical knowledge needed to undertake figuring out my Solar Power needs; therefore, I come throwing myself at the feet of you way-more-knowledgeable RVers in hopes of figuring at least some of this out. Even having one of my questions answered with a firm assurance would be an immense help.
Special deep-cycle, high capacity house batteries provide 12-volt DC power. These batteries are not the chassis 12-volt batteries. Power is also provided by a DC converter that operates when the motor home main electrical cord is plugged into 120-volt AC power source. The house batteries are charged by the motor home engine alternator, the converter when it is operating, or the generator (if equipped).
NOTE! Power for living area radios and tape decks is available from either the chassis or house batteries. A switch on the instrument panel allows you to select the power source. If you use the radio, tape decks, or other 12-volt DC equipment for long periods of time when the motor home engine is not running, either battery may be discharged.
Batteries
Your motor home has two battery systems. One system supplies 12-volt DC power to start the vehicle engine and generator. The other system supplies 12-volt DC power to the house living area.
Battery Disconnect
Some accessories or equipment such as clocks, radios or the refrigerator may draw small amounts of current even when turned OFF. A relay-operated disconnect system allows you to disconnect either the chassis battery or the coach battery or both. Disconnecting the batteries will help reduce the likelihood of battery discharge over long storage periods.
WARNING! Disconnect the 120-volt shore cord and the negative terminal from the coach battery/ies before working on either electrical system. If you work on the electrical systems with the power cord connected, you may be shocked, electrocuted, or severely burned.
Coach Fuses & Circuit Breakers
The 120-volt circuit breakers and 12-volt fuses are located in the same compartment. These devices interrupt the power if the circuit is overloaded.
The 120-volt circuit breakers include a 30-amp main breaker and several smaller breakers for individual circuits. If a circuit breaker is tripped, look for an overload on the circuit, then reset it by turning the breaker OFF and then turning it ON. Do not try to reset a breaker the second time without locating the overload problem.
The 12-volt fuses protect individual circuits. If the circuit is overloaded, it will blow the fuse and the fuse must be replaced. Check the circuit for an overload and replace the fuse with the same type or amperage rating.
WARNING! Do not install 12-volt fuses or 120-volt breakers with amperage ratings greater than that specified on the device or label. Doing so constitutes a fire hazard.
Battery Charging
Both sets of batteries will be kept charged by the chassis engine alternator and charging system while you are driving. The DC power converter will charge the coach battery when plugged into 120-volt AC service. The batteries can also be charged by the generator. If the battery needs to be charged from a different charging source, please follow these safety guidelines:
Leaving a charger connected to a battery for an extended period of time can shorten battery life.
Do not smoke near batteries being charged or which have been recently charged. Please note that batteries are being charged while you drive, and while you are connected to 120-volt AC power through the converter/charger circuit.
Do not break live circuits at the terminals of the battery. Use care when connecting or disconnecting booster leads or cables. Attaching booster cables, and poor connections are a common cause of electrical arcs which can cause explosion.
Check and adjust the electrolyte level before charging. Fill each cell to the indicator with distilled water.
Always remove all vent caps before charging the battery.
Do not charge the battery at a rate that causes the electrolyte to spew out.
WARNING! Remove rings, metal watchbands, and other metal jewelry before working around a battery. Use caution when using metal tools. If a tool contacts a battery terminal or metal connected to it, a short circuit could occur which could cause personal injury, explosion or fire.
WARNING! Do not allow battery electrolyte to contact skin, eyes, fabrics, or painted surfaces. The electrolyte is a sulphuric acid solution which could cause serious personal injury or property damage. Wear eye protection when working with batteries.
WARNING! Never expose the battery to open flame or electric spark. Chemical action in the battery generates hydrogen gas which is flammable and explosive. Do not allow battery electrolyte (acid) to contact skin, eyes, fabrics, or painted surfaces.
Solar Panel
The solar charging panel installed on the roof of your motor home is designed to "trickle-charge" your battery system. It is not intended to be a fast charger. It also cannot supply large amounts of current to operate 12-volt DC electrical equipment. When the sky is clear and under bright sun, the solar panel will help keep your batteries "topped-up." Do not try to operate 12-volt DC appliances with the output of the solar panel. A light on the air conditioner indicates when the solar panel is operating.
The panel can be expanded with optional expansion panels. Contact your dealer for more information on these optional panels.
Selecting a Replacement Battery
When the battery requires replacement, always choose a battery with the same physical and electrical characteristics as the original equipment. Your dealer or an authorized Fleetwood Service Center can advise you on proper battery selection.
Auxiliary Start System
You can use the Auxiliary Start System to start the motor home engine with the coach battery if the chassis battery is discharged. The Auxiliary Start System has no effect on the vehicle except to aid in starting the motor home engine. If the vehicle alternator is operating properly, the batteries will be charged while driving.
120-Volt System
This system provides grounded 120-volt AC electrical service for appliances such as air conditioners, TV, microwave ovens, etc. This system includes:
the generator
the main electrical power cord ("shore cord")
the DC inverter
Your motor home is equipped with a heavy duty, 30-amp power cord. It is commonly called the "shore cord." This cord is used to connect to external 120-volt AC service. The cord and connector is molded together to form a weatherproof cable assembly. Do not cut or alter the cable in any way. Do not remove the ground pin in the cable connector, or defeat the ground circuit in the motor home.
To connect the power cord to external service, push the plug straight into the receptacle.
WARNING! Do not operate the 120-volt electrical system without a proper ground. Electrocution or severe electrical shock could result.
WARNING! Switch off the 30-amp main breakers located in the 120-volt AC load center (breaker panel) before you insert or remove the 3D-amp power plug. Be sure to insert or remove the plug straight into or out of the receptacle. The neutral and both 120-volt pins should make contact at the same time to avoid excessive voltage on one leg of the circuit that could damage 120-volt appliances.
Power Converter
The converter will automatically supply 12-volt DC power when your motor home is operating on 120-volt from the generator or a public utility. It will also charge the coach battery.
Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter
Bathroom, galley, and patio 120-volt electrical outlets are protected by a Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter (GFCI). This device is intended to protect you against the hazards of electrical shocks possible when using electrical appliances in the bathroom or galley or in damp areas. Should a circuit or appliance (electric shaver, hair dryer, etc.) develop a potential shock hazard, the GFCI device is designed to disconnect the outlet (and other outlets on the same circuit), limiting your exposure time.
WARNING! Do not install 12-volt fuses or 120-volt breakers with amperage ratings greater than that specified on the device or label. Doing so constitutes a fire hazard.
Generator
Your motor home may be equipped with a gasoline- or diesel-powered generator. It will provide complete electrical self-containment when regular public utility AC power is unavailable, or use of the inverter is not practical. Controls are located at the generator and at a remote control panel located on the instrument panel.
With the generator operating, power is available at all of the 120-volt power outlets in the motor home, just as if the main power cord were connected to an external source. The generator is also connected to the power converter, and will supply 12-volt DC power as well.
Electronic Climate Control System
The dual air conditioners are controlled by the Electronic Climate Control system. This system allows both automatic and manual control of the rooftop air conditioners and the furnace(s) in your motor home.
The system will automatically control the air conditioner temperature, and when in the AUTOMATIC mode, it will control the fan speed to provide the necessary cooling at the quietest fan speed.
The system also monitors the current being drawn by all the electrical appliances in the motor home. Since the air conditioners draw a large amount of current, the climate control system may turn them off to prevent circuit overload. Once the system turns them off, it will keep them off as long as required, and then automatically return them to normal operation.
The system is designed to operate from 120-volt, 30-amp AC service ONLY. Connection of the motor home to any other power source will cause improper operation of the system. If only 20-amp service is available, current load management must be done manually by the owner and only one air conditioner can be operated at anyone time.
Air Conditioners
The roof-mounted air conditioners can operate only when the motor home is connected to 120-volt AC power from either a public utility or the generator. Be sure to turn the air conditioner circuit breaker ON.
Entertainment Equipment
If additional equipment requiring 12-volt power is installed in the motor home. Obtain the 12-volt source from a properly fused battery circuit. Consult an authorized Fleetwood dealer before adding any additional equipment to your motor home.
Miscellaneous Appliances
You may have additional appliances in your unit which operate only when connected to 120-volt power from either a public utility or the generator.
In some cases, appliance selector switches are provided on the galley to allow you to select combinations of appliances and remain within the power capacity of the electrical system.
Exterior Sealants
Roof sealant: Schnee-Moorehead #5504 or LaSalle-Deitch #MS-102
Inside the spoiler, I've put a bunch of information about my 1999 Fleetwood Southwind Storm RV that I felt was even remotely relevant to the installation of a Solar Power system. Hopefully it'll serve as a good reference in answering my questions. I also included a link to the owner's manual for the RV in case anyone wanted to read it for whatever reason.
Planned Usage
I plan to be living in this RV with two other people working on our computer software business. As such, ideally, we will want to be relying mostly on Solar Power for our electronics which includes:
Desktop Computer (Power Brick Info: AC Input: 100-240V~, 2A 50-60Hz DC Output: 19V --- 7.1A)
Desktop Computer (Power Supply Unit Info: 900W Continuous Power, 12V AC Input: 100-240V ±10% 47-63Hz More Info I Cannot Decipher: +3.3V@25A, +5V@25A, +12V1@40A, +12V2@40A, +12V3@40A, +12V4@40A, -12V@0.5A, +5VSB@3.0A Link to PSU Product:HCG-900)
2x LED Monitors
3x Smartphone Charging
2x Kindle Fire Charging
Potential Additions:
Another LED Monitor
Raspberry Pi Model B+ which uses a microUSB Cable: Minimum of 2A (10W)
A wireless router for local area network usage
Ideally, we would still be able to use our computers for a few hours (at least) after the sun goes down. Other appliances, such as air conditioning or the microwave, we're fine using the generator for.
Here is what I think I learned during my research: (Please please please feel free to correct any mistakes! I am the opposite of an expert on this. )
The Solar Panel that already comes with the RV is only for trickle charging and is basically useless
The coach battery does not want to be drained below 50% of its charge
We probably want to replace the coach battery with a new one not from 1999, and it should be AGM
I'm actually not sure about the 40A MPPT as some notes in the owner's manual leads me to believe that I want a 30A Charge Controller instead, but I don't know. I do know that from researching, I would want MPPT over PWM for efficiency's sake.
If I do need a 30A Charge Controller, I'm not sure of which one to get
I also don't know if 400W is enough
I am also fairly certain everybody has been saying that Monocrystalline is better than Polycrystalline
On Renogy's website, I can get a MT-5 Tracer Meter, which is good, maybe? Any tool that can give us additional information about our setup to allow better self-maintenance is absolutely ideal.
Another thing that is good to have (?) in the Solar Panels are bypass diodes (particularly living in the Pacific Northwest, there is a lot of shade everywhere)
We might need an inverter to go along with the Solar Panel kit, and if we do, we want a 2000W or 3000W true sine wave inverter
There is some hesitation here as some notes in the owner's manual leads me to believe there is already an inverter that is installed and being used by the RV.
I'm not sure if I need to match the Solar Panel Kit's ideal Wh per day with the W of the inverter.
I'm also actually not sure at all what W we need on our inverter, should we need one.
I actually am not sure that it will fit on the curved roof of the RV, in which case, I'm not sure what adjustable solar panel mount to get so that we can target the sunlight better.
Here is what I am currently aware of that I need to know: (Feel free to bring up anything that I should be aware of or should know that I'm totally blanking on)
What kind of Solar Panels should I get?
How many Watts do I need from the Solar Panels?
What amperage do I need from the Charge Controller? PWM or MPPT?
Do I need an inverter?
I realize this one is probably only answerable by me digging into the electrical system to see if there is already an inverter, and if there is already an inverter, checking to see if it's suitable for our needs or not.
If I need an inverter, what kind of inverter do I need?
What kind of (AGM?) battery do I need?
How many batteries do I need to support our electronics for at least a few hours after the sun has gone down?
Should there be any kind of fuse or breaker installed in-between the battery, solar panels, charge controller, and/or inverter? (Don't know what I'm talking about here. I remember reading other people discussing this or something similar, but I can't find the webpage anymore. Just want to make sure I'm covering my safety bases here.)
What kind of wiring do I need?
Is it possible to utilize the current RV's Solar Panel installation to add additional Solar Panels to? (In effect, bypassing the need to drill new tunnels through the RV's roof)
I'm sure I'm forgetting something, but by now it's way past my bedtime
Hey, if you've read this far, thanks! If you can't answer all the questions, but are willing to chime in for specific questions, please do! Any knowledge I can take away from this is a net positive for me! And don't worry, I won't hold you responsible for any issues caused by any of your recommendations. I will be researching again, but with clearer direction, after receiving any help from you all!
Thank you for your time and patience! This has been an exhausting research experience thus far , but I'm enjoying every minute of it!
Sincerely, Jonathan C
Rickl said
07:20 AM Jun 3, 2016
Very in depth and good questions. I'm sure many will contribute but if I may suggest, contacting AM Solar may be a good starting point to get the bulk of your questions answered. Also they have a very informative website that may answer a lot of your questions. Good luck.
Bill and Linda said
07:42 AM Jun 3, 2016
Recommend getting your favorite beverage and start digesting these:
This older write-up from Howard has a bit more a story to it and provides some overview:
What you need is totally based on how much your going to boondock and how much power you will use. Both write-ups assume one will use / need 120 volts which means an inverter.
Amedia1 said
08:00 AM Feb 3, 2017
Hi Jonathan,
I would recommend you to call or email to elitesynergysolutions.com . This company are good involved in this field and know the stuff perfectly. You can ask them any questions related to solar panels. They can also recommend you to buy or to choose the right for your RV.
Good luck
Danny and Cheryl said
10:46 AM Feb 3, 2017
IMHO you need a Honda 2000 and forget the solar stuff. you will save lots of money this way
Neil and Connie said
01:21 PM Feb 3, 2017
The other responses are great…but there are a couple of other things you need to figure out before you even start to consider solar.
1. What is the amp hour capacity, type, and age of the existing house batteries…these are the ones that power things in the house as opposed to the starting battery that cranks the starter on the engine.
2. Do you already have a generator?
3. What's your budget for doing solar.
Bottom line…solar is a lifestyle choice. Even if you boondock 6 months out of every year it will be a long time before you break even on the cost of installation of solar, a bigger AGM battery if necessary, inverter, and all the labor to install it. If you're planning on being in RV parks mostly and just occasional boondocking…the suggested Honda 2K generator is a much more economical option. Given you've purchased a 1999 model RV…I'm suspecting budget is a concern and solar might not be within it.
The suggestion of elitesynergysolutions.com I wonder about…a quick look at their site and it looks like they're mostly doing residential or fixed building installations rather than RV. There are a bunch of good RV solar installers depending on where you are in the country.
You need to first learn a bunch more about what you already have…what your energy requirements are…and what you need to provide them. An energy audit on the coach is another thing needing doing that helps answer the second of these questions. With knowing what you really have already and how much power draw you need available…then you can take a look at the budget and go from there.
Solar ain't cheap…we already had the big AGM battery bank, solar pre-wiring to the roof, the big inverter, and the appropriate monitoring instrumentation in our New Horizons from the factory and it was still several thousand bucks for the 8 panels we bought, solar controller, and labor to put them all in. As I said…it's a lifestyle and budgetary choice…lots of folks think they'll get into solar and never have to pay for parking again…while that may be at least possible if you're out west there's still the problem of fresh water and dumping black/gray tanks that isn't easy if you're out in the middle of BLM land in the prairie. Best to figure out what you have and need and compare that to your budget. Not trying to talk you out of it…but as a new RVer you need to figure out a whole bunch of stuff before you throw money at solar which might not help solve your needs.
I would start with the links Bill recommended…and get a whole bunch smarter about both RV electrical systems, solar, and what you have already before doing anything else. There's lots of expertise here on the forum once you've done some of the basic educational reading to help you figure out what you need to meet your requirements.
LarryW21 said
10:30 AM Feb 5, 2017
"IMHO you need a Honda 2000 and forget the solar stuff. you will save lots of money this way"
Danny, saving money isn't why I have solar. It's a lifestyle, it's easier than hauling out the generator, checking the fuel and oil, running it for an hour+, letting it cool, and putting it away,....AND it lets you enjoy a quiet afternoon parked next to me.
Neil and Connie said
08:43 AM Feb 6, 2017
Larry…definitely true. Solar is a lifestyle but you pay for it and my impression from the OP was that budget was a serious consideration. Given that the recommendation for the Honda isn't really out of order. Given the OP's newness to both RVing and the forum as based on this being his first post and the post's content…I personally don't think he really knows enough yet to determine whether solar is appropriate for the situation or affordable.
Nothing wrong with being new…we were there 5 years back…and he's trying to learn before doing anything…all admirable. But…and it's a big but…as I said budget appears to be a serious consideration and I personally would likely not recommend solar until he (a) knows more and (b) has figured out that RVing is gonna work for him…no sense spending a bunch of money now to find out the lifestyle doesn't fit in a year.
The post subject…beginner and full-time boondocking…tells me that he doesn't know what he's getting into yet, that budget is definitely an issue, and probably has no idea how hard full-time boondocking is. I'm not knocking either of beginner or full-time boondocking…just trying to help the new guy like folks here and elsewhere helped us in the past 5 years. Heck, I'm still asking people things…looked for some info on Antelope Canyon just the other day…no use reinventing the wheel.
-- Edited by Neil and Connie on Monday 6th of February 2017 08:46:52 AM
-- Edited by Neil and Connie on Monday 6th of February 2017 08:50:31 AM
BiggarView said
09:54 AM Feb 6, 2017
We are still a couple of years away from our FT start and by no means are we solar experts though we have solar under active investigation. I agree with all of Neil & Connie's points and potentially the idea of a modest generator (the Honda 2000) as well.
IMHO, solar is not a lifestyle choice, however boondocking (or otherwise being off the grid) is. Solar is just a means to an end. Budget constraints vs other power creation options is what will drive decision making. Solar will cost a lot upfront, but will save later... to a point. Sooner or later you'll need new batteries (not cheap). Gennies can be expensive upfront also, or not, depending on what you buy, but now you have to pay the going rate for fuel, currently it is relatively affordable... but who's to say what it will cost next month or next year. A genny will need periodic maintenance. In the long run they will both end up costing roughly the same (which is to say a lot) so it boils down to your comfort zone when it comes to certain intangibles, like peace and quiet, flexibility to meet your power consumption needs, how environmentally minded you are, how mechanically inclined you are, etc.
For us we have money in our budget to do a fairly large solar install, just in case we decide we'll want or need that much. Our priorities may change and we could go a different way but we have the benefit of time on our side at this point. YMMV, as they say.
FWIW, Brian
Bill and Linda said
10:28 AM Feb 6, 2017
Neil and Connie wrote:
Solar is a lifestyle but you pay for it and my impression from the OP was that budget was a serious consideration.
-- Edited by Neil and Connie on Monday 6th of February 2017 08:46:52 AM
-- Edited by Neil and Connie on Monday 6th of February 2017 08:50:31 AM
This is a slightly older thread but since its been revived with a few newer posts a comment from my perspective. Unless one is going off-grid as a specific, personal life style, do not think of solar as a way to save money. One will be very disappointed. Indeed, with enough solar one can live off-grid. But the second I hear "budget" and "solar" in the same sentence I know this is going to be difficult.
For most, not all, solar is just to supplement power needs for a few days along with a generator. Even with a small generator it can be difficult for "most" to break even on power costs. Naturally if one doesn't use hardly ANY 120 volt equipment it can be done. But that will get "old" pretty fast, IMO.
Again, if boondocking is for "fun" that's one thing. Just want to make sure anyone reading the thread understands solar; how little power one can actually produce in a day with the typical RV installation due to space limitations. And the expensive batteries (number) required especially with a residential refrigerator. The OP, I believe, is being realistic in what he wants to power. Great, realistic questions
We have solar, a generator and enjoy boondocking very much - as long as the weather doesn't require much air-conditioning although our generator can run both AC units. But that gets expensive real fast on a per hour basis.
Just some perspective comments for those reading along. Indeed, do your homework.
Bill
carolinakids said
01:42 PM Feb 6, 2017
The 2000 Honda's want run long on a tank of fuel. Solar gives us a freedom like no other. Generators are a pain unless they are on board types and have a fun tank or run on propane. Just my opinion.
Neil and Connie said
11:16 AM Feb 7, 2017
carolinakids wrote:
The 2000 Honda's want run long on a tank of fuel. Solar gives us a freedom like no other. Generators are a pain unless they are on board types and have a fun tank or run on propane. Just my opinion.
Mine runs about 6-8 hours on a tank…and it never runs more than a couple of hours per day to get the bulk charging done then switch over to solar for the float portion…unless there's no sun. A 5 gallon of fuel lasts 10 days at least for us…and one can always fill it while you're out at the local bar having a brewski.
If we didn't have the residential fridge then we could easily make it with no generator usage…but I like the extra space since it allows us to keep lots of infrequently used ingredients in there…an RV fridge just wouldn't have the space we need.
Bill and Linda said
02:53 PM Feb 7, 2017
Neil and Connie wrote:
carolinakids wrote:
The 2000 Honda's want run long on a tank of fuel. Solar gives us a freedom like no other. Generators are a pain unless they are on board types and have a fun tank or run on propane. Just my opinion.
Mine runs about 6-8 hours on a tank…and it never runs more than a couple of hours per day to get the bulk charging done then switch over to solar for the float portion…unless there's no sun. A 5 gallon of fuel lasts 10 days at least for us…and one can always fill it while you're out at the local bar having a brewski.
If we didn't have the residential fridge then we could easily make it with no generator usage…but I like the extra space since it allows us to keep lots of infrequently used ingredients in there…an RV fridge just wouldn't have the space we need.
Listen up! This is a very big deal as Neil is a great cook! Almost as good as Linda. "Ask me how I know this." :)
Neil and Connie said
09:17 AM Feb 9, 2017
Bill and Linda wrote:
Listen up! This is a very big deal as Neil is a great cook! Almost as good as Linda. "Ask me how I know this." :)
Trust me…I'm better you're just biased.
carolinakids said
06:09 AM Feb 17, 2017
We really like the Honda's for needed power but, its a pain in the rear (to me) dealing with them after having solar installed. For one thing our Honda's were powering a 30 ft. f/w with one a/c and if we fired up the microwave they tripped out. Next, the Honda's only runs 1 hr under load so every hour on the hour we had to refill until we bought an extra gas canister. Now I have another piece to store somewhere and it has to go outside account of the fumes. With the solar we pull up to a spot, break out the smart phone find the path of the sun and try to turn RV (sunshine) that directions. If theres no sunshine then the Honda's go into service. But as soon as sun comes out off they go. We love the solar. My solar installer is from Wyoming in the summer and Arizona area in the winter. If you want to talk to him look up https://wyominggypsysmobilehomesteading.wordpress.com/ and https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCcwsCAkv49OJcxW66c1iBng/featured
-- Edited by carolinakids on Friday 17th of February 2017 06:11:08 AM
Old_Man said
12:46 PM Feb 19, 2018
I would suggest reading everything you can about the topic, determine what you need based on your own energy assessment. I determined I wanted 400ah of lithium iron; not ion, batteries. I will build my own, using 3.2vdc 50ah cells which look like this...eight of the buggers. But it costs less to build your own. I'll source them directly from China. ALL lithium battery packs, everywhere in he world, use cells from China. Why should I pay Battle Born's ridiculous prices? FWIW, my solar installer looks at me when I shave. He's really quite a weenie.
Typical LiFePo4 3.2v 50AH battery module.
-- Edited by Old_Man on Monday 19th of February 2018 12:51:04 PM
-- Edited by Old_Man on Monday 19th of February 2018 12:53:14 PM
Terry and Jo said
02:35 PM Feb 19, 2018
I'm not knowledgeable about solar, so I will simply note that this thread was originated 2 years ago and was last posted to one year ago. For the benefit of anyone that is considering solar, keep in mind that some information here might be out of date. Thus, be sure and verify any information located in this thread to insure that it is still valid information.
Not being knowledgeable, I obviously don't know if new technology has replaced information posted before.
Terry
LarryW21 said
03:36 PM Feb 19, 2018
Not much has changed in the last two years regarding RV solar IMO except prices for MPPT controllers seem to be down a little.
Old_Man said
03:42 PM Feb 19, 2018
LarryW21 wrote:
Not much has changed in the last two years regarding RV solar IMO except prices for MPPT controllers seem to be down a little.
Look at panel prices in China.
BiggarView said
06:44 AM Feb 20, 2018
Old_Man wrote:
...I determined I wanted 400ah of lithium iron; not ion, batteries. I will build my own, using 3.2vdc 50ah cells which look like this...eight of the buggers. But it costs less to build your own.
400AH of 3.2VDC using 50AH batteries wired in parallel... yes.... but only 100AH of 12.8VDC which is approximate RV DC voltage. (4 wired in series then those 4 wired in parallel with another set of 4 wired like the first 4). You're gonna need 24 more of those batteries to build a 400AH 12.8VDC battery bank.
-- Edited by BiggarView on Tuesday 20th of February 2018 10:14:59 AM
mycroft8 said
09:22 AM Feb 20, 2018
It is possible to go from 3.2VDC to 120VAC; but power losses will be higher than if starting from 12VDC. Also, most RV's will have a 12VDC electrical system for some lights, slide motors, etc.
If you are going to max solar, there are arguments to go for as high a voltage as possible; say 24VDC or 48VDC, to minimize conversion losses. I have seen papers on car design, saying that the automotive industry needs to migrate away from 12VDC electrical to 24VDC or 48VDC; again to minimize losses.
Old_Man said
09:38 AM Feb 20, 2018
mycroft8 wrote:
It is possible to go from 3.2VDC to 120VAC; but power losses will be higher than if starting from 12VDC. Also, most RV's will have a 12VDC electrical system for some lights, slide motors, etc.
If you are going to max solar, there are arguments to go for as high a voltage as possible; say 24VDC or 48VDC, to minimize conversion losses. I have seen papers on car design, saying that the automotive industry needs to migrate away from 12VDC electrical to 24VDC or 48VDC; again to minimize losses.
Individual cells will be wired together to create a 12vdc pack. Still working out the battery management system I need to wire in. Obviously need something.
LarryW21 said
10:00 AM Feb 20, 2018
“If you are going to max solar, there are arguments to go for as high a voltage as possible; say 24VDC or 48VDC, to minimize conversion losses.”
I disagree, mycroft8. You can use smaller wire but wire doesn’t cost that much. Show me a study that says my 12 volt nominal solar system is less efficient than if I sent 24 volts nominal to my controller. Then we get to shading issues on panels in series...I’m a forest camper.
Old_Man said
01:43 PM Feb 21, 2018
LarryW21 wrote:
“If you are going to max solar, there are arguments to go for as high a voltage as possible; say 24VDC or 48VDC, to minimize conversion losses.”
I disagree, mycroft8. You can use smaller wire but wire doesn’t cost that much. Show me a study that says my 12 volt nominal solar system is less efficient than if I sent 24 volts nominal to my controller. Then we get to shading issues on panels in series...I’m a forest camper.
Hello lovely people!
I am new to RV life in general and am planning to jump right into boondocking.
I've been doing a lot of research online, and I've learned enough to understand that I have barely learned anything at all. 
There's a lot of technical knowledge needed to undertake figuring out my Solar Power needs; therefore, I come throwing myself at the feet of you way-more-knowledgeable RVers in hopes of figuring at least some of this out. 
Even having one of my questions answered with a firm assurance would be an immense help. 
Special deep-cycle, high capacity house batteries provide 12-volt DC power. These batteries are not the chassis 12-volt batteries. Power is also provided by a DC converter that operates when the motor home main electrical cord is plugged into 120-volt AC power source. The house batteries are charged by the motor home engine alternator, the converter when it is operating, or the generator (if equipped).
NOTE! Power for living area radios and tape decks is available from either the chassis or house batteries. A switch on the instrument panel allows you to select the power source. If you use the radio, tape decks, or other 12-volt DC equipment for long periods of time when the motor home engine is not running, either battery may be discharged.
Some accessories or equipment such as clocks, radios or the refrigerator may draw small amounts of current even when turned OFF. A relay-operated disconnect system allows you to disconnect either the chassis battery or the coach battery or both. Disconnecting the batteries will help reduce the likelihood of battery discharge over long storage periods.
WARNING! Disconnect the 120-volt shore cord and the negative terminal from the coach battery/ies before working on either electrical system. If you work on the electrical systems with the power cord connected, you may be shocked, electrocuted, or severely burned.
The 120-volt circuit breakers and 12-volt fuses are located in the same compartment. These devices interrupt the power if the circuit is overloaded.
The 120-volt circuit breakers include a 30-amp main breaker and several smaller breakers for individual circuits. If a circuit breaker is tripped, look for an overload on the circuit, then reset it by turning the breaker OFF and then turning it ON. Do not try to reset a breaker the second time without locating the overload problem.
The 12-volt fuses protect individual circuits. If the circuit is overloaded, it will blow the fuse and the fuse must be replaced. Check the circuit for an overload and replace the fuse with the same type or amperage rating.
WARNING! Do not install 12-volt fuses or 120-volt breakers with amperage ratings greater than that specified on the device or label. Doing so constitutes a fire hazard.
Both sets of batteries will be kept charged by the chassis engine alternator and charging system while you are driving. The DC power converter will charge the coach battery when plugged into 120-volt AC service. The batteries can also be charged by the generator. If the battery needs to be charged from a different charging source, please follow these safety guidelines:
WARNING! Remove rings, metal watchbands, and other metal jewelry before working around a battery. Use caution when using metal tools. If a tool contacts a battery terminal or metal connected to it, a short circuit could occur which could cause personal injury, explosion or fire.
WARNING! Do not allow battery electrolyte to contact skin, eyes, fabrics, or painted surfaces. The electrolyte is a sulphuric acid solution which could cause serious personal injury or property damage. Wear eye protection when working with batteries.
WARNING! Never expose the battery to open flame or electric spark. Chemical action in the battery generates hydrogen gas which is flammable and explosive. Do not allow battery electrolyte (acid) to contact skin, eyes, fabrics, or painted surfaces.
The solar charging panel installed on the roof of your motor home is designed to "trickle-charge" your battery system. It is not intended to be a fast charger. It also cannot supply large amounts of current to operate 12-volt DC electrical equipment. When the sky is clear and under bright sun, the solar panel will help keep your batteries "topped-up." Do not try to operate 12-volt DC appliances with the output of the solar panel. A light on the air conditioner indicates when the solar panel is operating.
The panel can be expanded with optional expansion panels. Contact your dealer for more information on these optional panels.
This system provides grounded 120-volt AC electrical service for appliances such as air conditioners, TV, microwave ovens, etc. This system includes:
Your motor home is equipped with a heavy duty, 30-amp power cord. It is commonly called the "shore cord." This cord is used to connect to external 120-volt AC service. The cord and connector is molded together to form a weatherproof cable assembly. Do not cut or alter the cable in any way. Do not remove the ground pin in the cable connector, or defeat the ground circuit in the motor home.
To connect the power cord to external service, push the plug straight into the receptacle.
WARNING! Do not operate the 120-volt electrical system without a proper ground. Electrocution or severe electrical shock could result.
WARNING! Switch off the 30-amp main breakers located in the 120-volt AC load center (breaker panel) before you insert or remove the 3D-amp power plug. Be sure to insert or remove the plug straight into or out of the receptacle. The neutral and both 120-volt pins should make contact at the same time to avoid excessive voltage on one leg of the circuit that could damage 120-volt appliances.
Bathroom, galley, and patio 120-volt electrical outlets are protected by a Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter (GFCI). This device is intended to protect you against the hazards of electrical shocks possible when using electrical appliances in the bathroom or galley or in damp areas. Should a circuit or appliance (electric shaver, hair dryer, etc.) develop a potential shock hazard, the GFCI device is designed to disconnect the outlet (and other outlets on the same circuit), limiting your exposure time.
WARNING! Do not install 12-volt fuses or 120-volt breakers with amperage ratings greater than that specified on the device or label. Doing so constitutes a fire hazard.
Your motor home may be equipped with a gasoline- or diesel-powered generator. It will provide complete electrical self-containment when regular public utility AC power is unavailable, or use of the inverter is not practical. Controls are located at the generator and at a remote control panel located on the instrument panel.
With the generator operating, power is available at all of the 120-volt power outlets in the motor home, just as if the main power cord were connected to an external source. The generator is also connected to the power converter, and will supply 12-volt DC power as well.
The dual air conditioners are controlled by the Electronic Climate Control system. This system allows both automatic and manual control of the rooftop air conditioners and the furnace(s) in your motor home.
The system will automatically control the air conditioner temperature, and when in the AUTOMATIC mode, it will control the fan speed to provide the necessary cooling at the quietest fan speed.
The system also monitors the current being drawn by all the electrical appliances in the motor home. Since the air conditioners draw a large amount of current, the climate control system may turn them off to prevent circuit overload. Once the system turns them off, it will keep them off as long as required, and then automatically return them to normal operation.
The system is designed to operate from 120-volt, 30-amp AC service ONLY. Connection of the motor home to any other power source will cause improper operation of the system. If only 20-amp service is available, current load management must be done manually by the owner and only one air conditioner can be operated at anyone time.
You may have additional appliances in your unit which operate only when connected to 120-volt power from either a public utility or the generator.
In some cases, appliance selector switches are provided on the galley to allow you to select combinations of appliances and remain within the power capacity of the electrical system.
Roof sealant: Schnee-Moorehead #5504 or LaSalle-Deitch #MS-102
Inside the spoiler, I've put a bunch of information about my 1999 Fleetwood Southwind Storm RV that I felt was even remotely relevant to the installation of a Solar Power system.
Hopefully it'll serve as a good reference in answering my questions. 
I also included a link to the owner's manual for the RV in case anyone wanted to read it for whatever reason. 
Planned Usage
I plan to be living in this RV with two other people working on our computer software business. As such, ideally, we will want to be relying mostly on Solar Power for our electronics which includes:
Ideally, we would still be able to use our computers for a few hours (at least) after the sun goes down. Other appliances, such as air conditioning or the microwave, we're fine using the generator for.
Here is what I think I learned during my research:
)
(Please please please feel free to correct any mistakes! I am the opposite of an expert on this.
Here is what I am currently aware of that I need to know:
(Feel free to bring up anything that I should be aware of or should know that I'm totally blanking on)
Hey, if you've read this far, thanks!
If you can't answer all the questions, but are willing to chime in for specific questions, please do! Any knowledge I can take away from this is a net positive for me! And don't worry, I won't hold you responsible for any issues caused by any of your recommendations. I will be researching again, but with clearer direction, after receiving any help from you all!
Thank you for your time and patience! This has been an exhausting research experience thus far
, but I'm enjoying every minute of it! 
Sincerely,
Jonathan C
Recommend getting your favorite beverage and start digesting these:
This older write-up from Howard has a bit more a story to it and provides some overview:
http://www.rv-dreams.com/our-rv-electrical.html
This one gets into the meat of it:
http://www.jackdanmayer.com/rv_electrical_and_solar.htm
What you need is totally based on how much your going to boondock and how much power you will use. Both write-ups assume one will use / need 120 volts which means an inverter.
I would recommend you to call or email to elitesynergysolutions.com . This company are good involved in this field and know the stuff perfectly. You can ask them any questions related to solar panels. They can also recommend you to buy or to choose the right for your RV.
Good luck
The other responses are great…but there are a couple of other things you need to figure out before you even start to consider solar.
1. What is the amp hour capacity, type, and age of the existing house batteries…these are the ones that power things in the house as opposed to the starting battery that cranks the starter on the engine.
2. Do you already have a generator?
3. What's your budget for doing solar.
Bottom line…solar is a lifestyle choice. Even if you boondock 6 months out of every year it will be a long time before you break even on the cost of installation of solar, a bigger AGM battery if necessary, inverter, and all the labor to install it. If you're planning on being in RV parks mostly and just occasional boondocking…the suggested Honda 2K generator is a much more economical option. Given you've purchased a 1999 model RV…I'm suspecting budget is a concern and solar might not be within it.
The suggestion of elitesynergysolutions.com I wonder about…a quick look at their site and it looks like they're mostly doing residential or fixed building installations rather than RV. There are a bunch of good RV solar installers depending on where you are in the country.
You need to first learn a bunch more about what you already have…what your energy requirements are…and what you need to provide them. An energy audit on the coach is another thing needing doing that helps answer the second of these questions. With knowing what you really have already and how much power draw you need available…then you can take a look at the budget and go from there.
Solar ain't cheap…we already had the big AGM battery bank, solar pre-wiring to the roof, the big inverter, and the appropriate monitoring instrumentation in our New Horizons from the factory and it was still several thousand bucks for the 8 panels we bought, solar controller, and labor to put them all in. As I said…it's a lifestyle and budgetary choice…lots of folks think they'll get into solar and never have to pay for parking again…while that may be at least possible if you're out west there's still the problem of fresh water and dumping black/gray tanks that isn't easy if you're out in the middle of BLM land in the prairie. Best to figure out what you have and need and compare that to your budget. Not trying to talk you out of it…but as a new RVer you need to figure out a whole bunch of stuff before you throw money at solar which might not help solve your needs.
I would start with the links Bill recommended…and get a whole bunch smarter about both RV electrical systems, solar, and what you have already before doing anything else. There's lots of expertise here on the forum once you've done some of the basic educational reading to help you figure out what you need to meet your requirements.
Danny, saving money isn't why I have solar. It's a lifestyle, it's easier than hauling out the generator, checking the fuel and oil, running it for an hour+, letting it cool, and putting it away,....AND it lets you enjoy a quiet afternoon parked next to me.
Larry…definitely true. Solar is a lifestyle but you pay for it and my impression from the OP was that budget was a serious consideration. Given that the recommendation for the Honda isn't really out of order. Given the OP's newness to both RVing and the forum as based on this being his first post and the post's content…I personally don't think he really knows enough yet to determine whether solar is appropriate for the situation or affordable.
Nothing wrong with being new…we were there 5 years back…and he's trying to learn before doing anything…all admirable. But…and it's a big but…as I said budget appears to be a serious consideration and I personally would likely not recommend solar until he (a) knows more and (b) has figured out that RVing is gonna work for him…no sense spending a bunch of money now to find out the lifestyle doesn't fit in a year.
The post subject…beginner and full-time boondocking…tells me that he doesn't know what he's getting into yet, that budget is definitely an issue, and probably has no idea how hard full-time boondocking is. I'm not knocking either of beginner or full-time boondocking…just trying to help the new guy like folks here and elsewhere helped us in the past 5 years. Heck, I'm still asking people things…looked for some info on Antelope Canyon just the other day…no use reinventing the wheel.
-- Edited by Neil and Connie on Monday 6th of February 2017 08:46:52 AM
-- Edited by Neil and Connie on Monday 6th of February 2017 08:50:31 AM
We are still a couple of years away from our FT start and by no means are we solar experts though we have solar under active investigation. I agree with all of Neil & Connie's points and potentially the idea of a modest generator (the Honda 2000) as well.
IMHO, solar is not a lifestyle choice, however boondocking (or otherwise being off the grid) is. Solar is just a means to an end. Budget constraints vs other power creation options is what will drive decision making. Solar will cost a lot upfront, but will save later... to a point. Sooner or later you'll need new batteries (not cheap). Gennies can be expensive upfront also, or not, depending on what you buy, but now you have to pay the going rate for fuel, currently it is relatively affordable... but who's to say what it will cost next month or next year. A genny will need periodic maintenance. In the long run they will both end up costing roughly the same (which is to say a lot) so it boils down to your comfort zone when it comes to certain intangibles, like peace and quiet, flexibility to meet your power consumption needs, how environmentally minded you are, how mechanically inclined you are, etc.
For us we have money in our budget to do a fairly large solar install, just in case we decide we'll want or need that much. Our priorities may change and we could go a different way but we have the benefit of time on our side at this point. YMMV, as they say.
FWIW, Brian
This is a slightly older thread but since its been revived with a few newer posts a comment from my perspective. Unless one is going off-grid as a specific, personal life style, do not think of solar as a way to save money. One will be very disappointed. Indeed, with enough solar one can live off-grid. But the second I hear "budget" and "solar" in the same sentence I know this is going to be difficult.
For most, not all, solar is just to supplement power needs for a few days along with a generator. Even with a small generator it can be difficult for "most" to break even on power costs. Naturally if one doesn't use hardly ANY 120 volt equipment it can be done. But that will get "old" pretty fast, IMO.
Again, if boondocking is for "fun" that's one thing. Just want to make sure anyone reading the thread understands solar; how little power one can actually produce in a day with the typical RV installation due to space limitations. And the expensive batteries (number) required especially with a residential refrigerator. The OP, I believe, is being realistic in what he wants to power. Great, realistic questions
We have solar, a generator and enjoy boondocking very much - as long as the weather doesn't require much air-conditioning although our generator can run both AC units. But that gets expensive real fast on a per hour basis.
Just some perspective comments for those reading along. Indeed, do your homework.
Bill
Mine runs about 6-8 hours on a tank…and it never runs more than a couple of hours per day to get the bulk charging done then switch over to solar for the float portion…unless there's no sun. A 5 gallon of fuel lasts 10 days at least for us…and one can always fill it while you're out at the local bar having a brewski.
If we didn't have the residential fridge then we could easily make it with no generator usage…but I like the extra space since it allows us to keep lots of infrequently used ingredients in there…an RV fridge just wouldn't have the space we need.
Listen up! This is a very big deal as Neil is a great cook! Almost as good as Linda. "Ask me how I know this." :)
Trust me…I'm better you're just biased.
We really like the Honda's for needed power but, its a pain in the rear (to me) dealing with them after having solar installed. For one thing our Honda's were powering a 30 ft. f/w with one a/c and if we fired up the microwave they tripped out. Next, the Honda's only runs 1 hr under load so every hour on the hour we had to refill until we bought an extra gas canister. Now I have another piece to store somewhere and it has to go outside account of the fumes. With the solar we pull up to a spot, break out the smart phone find the path of the sun and try to turn RV (sunshine) that directions. If theres no sunshine then the Honda's go into service. But as soon as sun comes out off they go. We love the solar. My solar installer is from Wyoming in the summer and Arizona area in the winter. If you want to talk to him look up https://wyominggypsysmobilehomesteading.wordpress.com/ and https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCcwsCAkv49OJcxW66c1iBng/featured
-- Edited by carolinakids on Friday 17th of February 2017 06:11:08 AM
I would suggest reading everything you can about the topic, determine what you need based on your own energy assessment. I determined I wanted 400ah of lithium iron; not ion, batteries. I will build my own, using 3.2vdc 50ah cells which look like this...eight of the buggers. But it costs less to build your own. I'll source them directly from China. ALL lithium battery packs, everywhere in he world, use cells from China. Why should I pay Battle Born's ridiculous prices? FWIW, my solar installer looks at me when I shave. He's really quite a weenie.
Typical LiFePo4 3.2v 50AH battery module.
-- Edited by Old_Man on Monday 19th of February 2018 12:51:04 PM
-- Edited by Old_Man on Monday 19th of February 2018 12:53:14 PM
I'm not knowledgeable about solar, so I will simply note that this thread was originated 2 years ago and was last posted to one year ago. For the benefit of anyone that is considering solar, keep in mind that some information here might be out of date. Thus, be sure and verify any information located in this thread to insure that it is still valid information.
Not being knowledgeable, I obviously don't know if new technology has replaced information posted before.
Terry
Look at panel prices in China.
400AH of 3.2VDC using 50AH batteries wired in parallel... yes.... but only 100AH of 12.8VDC which is approximate RV DC voltage. (4 wired in series then those 4 wired in parallel with another set of 4 wired like the first 4). You're gonna need 24 more of those batteries to build a 400AH 12.8VDC battery bank.
-- Edited by BiggarView on Tuesday 20th of February 2018 10:14:59 AM
It is possible to go from 3.2VDC to 120VAC; but power losses will be higher than if starting from 12VDC. Also, most RV's will have a 12VDC electrical system for some lights, slide motors, etc.
If you are going to max solar, there are arguments to go for as high a voltage as possible; say 24VDC or 48VDC, to minimize conversion losses. I have seen papers on car design, saying that the automotive industry needs to migrate away from 12VDC electrical to 24VDC or 48VDC; again to minimize losses.
Individual cells will be wired together to create a 12vdc pack. Still working out the battery management system I need to wire in. Obviously need something.
I disagree, mycroft8. You can use smaller wire but wire doesn’t cost that much. Show me a study that says my 12 volt nominal solar system is less efficient than if I sent 24 volts nominal to my controller. Then we get to shading issues on panels in series...I’m a forest camper.
I'm confused, 24vdc panels? They will be.