I feel reasonably confident that the truck that I want to purchase can more than adequately tow the fifth wheel I'm interested in ordering. I've talked with a few of you and feel like I have a pretty good understanding of TV/5er weight calculations for safe towing. However, having never owned a fifth wheel before, there is one portion of this calculation that those of you with experience can assist me with: Pin Weight. I am looking at a DRV 43' Manhattan fifth wheel model and I have several dealer websites with listed pin weights of 3100-3200 lbs. I know that each situation is different from the next and that I won't truly know for my own situation until I load it with our belongings, but I'm hoping that you can give me some ideas of what your dry pin weights to loaded pin weights (in relation to your overall rig: 32' 16K GVWR, 38' 19K GVWR, 44' 24K GVWR, etc) are so I can attempt to glean some guideline as to how to guesstimate what the difference between dry pin weight to loaded pin weight might be.
Glenn West said
12:33 PM May 10, 2016
I know DRV is doing some questionable pin weights now. They are bring the ratio down to 17%ish. This is not wise and many share my thoughts on this. Need a good pin weight to prevent the back end from "wiggling". One can run possibly a long time before it happens but if it starts this you can't stop it without adequate pin weight. If you search the net you will find people with the Full House DRV they are having lots of problems with towing stability. They are building longer heavier 5thers and lighting pin so they can be towed with a LDT. jfyi
Neil and Connie said
01:00 PM May 10, 2016
Our New Horizons 39 footer weighed in at 21,575 loaded with a pin of 5450 when H&L weighed us in Colorado Springs in May of 13. We've added solar panels since then…figure 30 pounds apiece for a total of about 250…4 are in the front so they're almost all pin weight and the other 4 are mostly axle weight. My guess is that we're still under 22K total and maybe 5,700 pin weight. Weight was with about 20-30 gallons fresh and black/gray empty. Pin weight ratio about 25% of total.
We've actually added very little weight or stuff since we hit the road in July of 12…I'm going to get weighed again this week as part of picking up our new RAM truck…it won't be wheel by wheel since Pilot's scales don't do that…but will get a better idea of what our current weight is.
Our weight as delivered was 18,400…so we've added about 3200 pounds of 'stuff' and still have excess CCC. Don't know what the pin weight was as delivered but I'm assuming the ratio didn't vary much…at 25% it would have been 4600 pin.
3,100 pounds sounds pretty low for pin weight on a 43 foot rig.
I'll update these numbers later next week when I have our current weight.
Bill and Linda said
02:08 PM May 10, 2016
Robert:
IMO, it is very difficult to "guesstimate" something this important.
I'm with Glenn and Neil both on this one. Our 38+ NH pin weight percentage barely moved from empty - off the line weight - to loaded. I know for a fact the empty pin weight as I was the one who towed it to the scales coming off-the line. Its about 22% loaded for travel. But this is partially because we have rear storage area and I carry heavy stuff in the rear. Our previous 39' trailer had a pin percentage of 21+% loaded as well. That was a KZ Escalade. The pin percentage was actually higher until we added a heavier suspension and that changed the math percentage wise. Point is, two different class of trailer and both are over 20% which is very common - until recently.
Having said that, I would be very concerned with a 3,100lb pin on a 43 foot trailer and that number is probably with no options. The 38+ NH pin off the line was over 4,100lbs dry. If the pin on the DRV doesn't go up to at least 4,000+lbs when loaded I would be concerned.
That said, if 17% is indeed the number, as Glenn commented, with the trailer loaded it would concern me. Yes, the spec is between 15-25%. But to get a low pin weight percentage most likely means the axles are way forward. That means: 1) a lot of rear overhang "swing" during turns (one can hit something) and 2) as Glenn said, potential for tail wag due to the rear having a long "arm" over the fulcrum (the axles.) This could be an issue.
I know there are many trucks capable of towing a long and heavy trailer and people on this site will say its fine. But I am concerned with long trailers with short wheel bases and being able to control them with a Class 3 truck which includes the F-450 as to weight. Reports indicated this could be an issue even with an HDT. This has always been an issue with short wheel base travel trailers and it can be the same for 5th wheels as well if the geometry and leverage numbers get too far out of control.
My opinions.
Bill
-- Edited by Bill and Linda on Thursday 12th of May 2016 06:19:26 AM
Alie and Jims Carrilite said
05:11 PM May 10, 2016
Our Carrilite is 38' overall length weighing 19100lbs.
Our pin is 4850.
On the subject that Glenn and Bill are discussing, Most of the DRV triple axle trailers have a low pin weight %. It has been said that DRV is doing this so the larger rigs can still be towed by 3500/350 series trucks.
There is a gentleman that owns a 43 Atlanta that tows with a HDT that has stated that anything over 65mph the trailer starts to wiggle. There are also other acquaintances that have issues with low pin weights.
2 rigs that I know of that have been weighed are both in the 17% range.
kb0zke said
07:45 PM May 10, 2016
As I understand it, pin weight should be 20-25% of the coach's weight. I'd use the published gross weight as the coach's weight, then take 25% of that for a projected pin weight. That would mean that a coach with a gross weight of 24,000 (yes, there are such coaches) would have a pin weight of 4800-6000 pounds. I'd just figure on the 6000 pound weight for convenience. Add to that figure whatever will ride in the truck bed (hitch, tools, etc.) and then add that weight to the weight the truck already has on the rear axle. Go to a scale for that number. If you are within limits, fine. If not, either get a bigger truck, get rid of some of the stuff, or get a lighter coach.
Manufacturers who publish low tongue/hitch weights are doing themselves a disservice. If I buy a coach thinking that I'm going to put 4000 pounds on the rear axle and then find that it is actually 6000 and I'm overloaded, I'm not going to be a happy camper. Of course, dealers don't help when they advertise only the empty weight, but that's a rant for another evening.
Dranoel said
08:38 PM May 10, 2016
My loaded Mobile Suites is 19K. The pin weight is 4,700 lbs and my F350, while it drives fine, has maxed out the mfr specs.
-- Edited by Dranoel on Tuesday 10th of May 2016 08:39:31 PM
Bill and Linda said
08:03 AM May 11, 2016
Alie and Jims Carrilite wrote:
Our Carrilite is 38' overall length weighing 19100lbs. Our pin is 4850.
On the subject that Glenn and Bill are discussing, Most of the DRV triple axle trailers have a low pin weight %. It has been said that DRV is doing this so the larger rigs can still be towed by 3500/350 series trucks. There is a gentleman that owns a 43 Atlanta that tows with a HDT that has stated that anything over 65mph the trailer starts to wiggle. There are also other acquaintances that have issues with low pin weights. 2 rigs that I know of that have been weighed are both in the 17% range.
Jim, I appreciate that input. That is helpful as a perspective in the real world. I, for one, try not to overstate needing "enough truck" because, I am told, it will "discourage people" from getting RV they need, well at least want. There is a fine line between overstating and understating. I try to walk it. But, IMO, a 43 foot trailer with a 17% pin is just kind of troublesome to me.
Glenn West said
09:46 AM May 11, 2016
Dranoel wrote:
My loaded Mobile Suites is 19K. The pin weight is 4,700 lbs and my F350, while it drives fine, has maxed out the mfr specs.
-- Edited by Dranoel on Tuesday 10th of May 2016 08:39:31 PM
Your coach does not fall in this category. This is being done on the longer units and full house units. You have close to 25% pin weight. Yours will tow beautifully.
FastEagle said
09:43 PM May 11, 2016
Listed below is an excerpt from FMVSS 571.120. Manufacturer’s of RV trailers MUST apply this step in the trailer's final certification process. After reading that statement one must come to the conclusion that the manufacturer’s published tongue weight is in fact not a “dry” weight.
To do a double check you can get the total GAWR values from your trailer’s certification label and add them to the published tongue weight and see if the answer matches the GVWR on the certification label. Applicable dealer options will be deducted from the CCC label.
OnRV trailers, the sum of the GAWRs of all axles on the vehicle plus the vehicle manufacturer's recommended tongue weight must not be less than the GVWR, (Paragraph S10.2).
-- Edited by FastEagle on Wednesday 11th of May 2016 09:44:13 PM
-- Edited by FastEagle on Wednesday 11th of May 2016 09:48:16 PM
I feel reasonably confident that the truck that I want to purchase can more than adequately tow the fifth wheel I'm interested in ordering. I've talked with a few of you and feel like I have a pretty good understanding of TV/5er weight calculations for safe towing. However, having never owned a fifth wheel before, there is one portion of this calculation that those of you with experience can assist me with: Pin Weight. I am looking at a DRV 43' Manhattan fifth wheel model and I have several dealer websites with listed pin weights of 3100-3200 lbs. I know that each situation is different from the next and that I won't truly know for my own situation until I load it with our belongings, but I'm hoping that you can give me some ideas of what your dry pin weights to loaded pin weights (in relation to your overall rig: 32' 16K GVWR, 38' 19K GVWR, 44' 24K GVWR, etc) are so I can attempt to glean some guideline as to how to guesstimate what the difference between dry pin weight to loaded pin weight might be.
Our New Horizons 39 footer weighed in at 21,575 loaded with a pin of 5450 when H&L weighed us in Colorado Springs in May of 13. We've added solar panels since then…figure 30 pounds apiece for a total of about 250…4 are in the front so they're almost all pin weight and the other 4 are mostly axle weight. My guess is that we're still under 22K total and maybe 5,700 pin weight. Weight was with about 20-30 gallons fresh and black/gray empty. Pin weight ratio about 25% of total.
We've actually added very little weight or stuff since we hit the road in July of 12…I'm going to get weighed again this week as part of picking up our new RAM truck…it won't be wheel by wheel since Pilot's scales don't do that…but will get a better idea of what our current weight is.
Our weight as delivered was 18,400…so we've added about 3200 pounds of 'stuff' and still have excess CCC. Don't know what the pin weight was as delivered but I'm assuming the ratio didn't vary much…at 25% it would have been 4600 pin.
3,100 pounds sounds pretty low for pin weight on a 43 foot rig.
I'll update these numbers later next week when I have our current weight.
Robert:
IMO, it is very difficult to "guesstimate" something this important.
I'm with Glenn and Neil both on this one. Our 38+ NH pin weight percentage barely moved from empty - off the line weight - to loaded. I know for a fact the empty pin weight as I was the one who towed it to the scales coming off-the line. Its about 22% loaded for travel. But this is partially because we have rear storage area and I carry heavy stuff in the rear. Our previous 39' trailer had a pin percentage of 21+% loaded as well. That was a KZ Escalade. The pin percentage was actually higher until we added a heavier suspension and that changed the math percentage wise. Point is, two different class of trailer and both are over 20% which is very common - until recently.
Having said that, I would be very concerned with a 3,100lb pin on a 43 foot trailer and that number is probably with no options. The 38+ NH pin off the line was over 4,100lbs dry. If the pin on the DRV doesn't go up to at least 4,000+lbs when loaded I would be concerned.
That said, if 17% is indeed the number, as Glenn commented, with the trailer loaded it would concern me. Yes, the spec is between 15-25%. But to get a low pin weight percentage most likely means the axles are way forward. That means: 1) a lot of rear overhang "swing" during turns (one can hit something) and 2) as Glenn said, potential for tail wag due to the rear having a long "arm" over the fulcrum (the axles.) This could be an issue.
I know there are many trucks capable of towing a long and heavy trailer and people on this site will say its fine. But I am concerned with long trailers with short wheel bases and being able to control them with a Class 3 truck which includes the F-450 as to weight. Reports indicated this could be an issue even with an HDT. This has always been an issue with short wheel base travel trailers and it can be the same for 5th wheels as well if the geometry and leverage numbers get too far out of control.
My opinions.
Bill
-- Edited by Bill and Linda on Thursday 12th of May 2016 06:19:26 AM
Our pin is 4850.
On the subject that Glenn and Bill are discussing, Most of the DRV triple axle trailers have a low pin weight %. It has been said that DRV is doing this so the larger rigs can still be towed by 3500/350 series trucks.
There is a gentleman that owns a 43 Atlanta that tows with a HDT that has stated that anything over 65mph the trailer starts to wiggle. There are also other acquaintances that have issues with low pin weights.
2 rigs that I know of that have been weighed are both in the 17% range.
Manufacturers who publish low tongue/hitch weights are doing themselves a disservice. If I buy a coach thinking that I'm going to put 4000 pounds on the rear axle and then find that it is actually 6000 and I'm overloaded, I'm not going to be a happy camper. Of course, dealers don't help when they advertise only the empty weight, but that's a rant for another evening.
My loaded Mobile Suites is 19K. The pin weight is 4,700 lbs and my F350, while it drives fine, has maxed out the mfr specs.
-- Edited by Dranoel on Tuesday 10th of May 2016 08:39:31 PM
Jim, I appreciate that input. That is helpful as a perspective in the real world. I, for one, try not to overstate needing "enough truck" because, I am told, it will "discourage people" from getting RV they need, well at least want. There is a fine line between overstating and understating. I try to walk it. But, IMO, a 43 foot trailer with a 17% pin is just kind of troublesome to me.
Your coach does not fall in this category. This is being done on the longer units and full house units. You have close to 25% pin weight. Yours will tow beautifully.
Listed below is an excerpt from FMVSS 571.120. Manufacturer’s of RV trailers MUST apply this step in the trailer's final certification process. After reading that statement one must come to the conclusion that the manufacturer’s published tongue weight is in fact not a “dry” weight.
To do a double check you can get the total GAWR values from your trailer’s certification label and add them to the published tongue weight and see if the answer matches the GVWR on the certification label. Applicable dealer options will be deducted from the CCC label.
On RV trailers, the sum of the GAWRs of all axles on the vehicle plus the vehicle manufacturer's recommended tongue weight must not be less than the GVWR, (Paragraph S10.2).
-- Edited by FastEagle on Wednesday 11th of May 2016 09:44:13 PM
-- Edited by FastEagle on Wednesday 11th of May 2016 09:48:16 PM