Here are my predictions for what the Big 3 are going to do for 2017 model years.
Chevy/GMC 3500
2016 was GM's year to shine and generally speaking their towing numbers are a lot more realistic than Ford or RAM.
Engine Power = No Change
Towing #'s = No Change
RAM 3500
RAM 3500 had a recent H/O bump in the engine to 900 ft lbs. and they are positioned to increase their towing numbers if they need to without any changes to the truck. I expect they will wait for Ford's numbers to come out and then up their towing #'s to match or exceed Ford's as long as the 5th wheel/gooseneck trailer weight is below 32,300 lbs.
Engine Power = No Change
Towing #'s
RAWR = No change
5th Wheel/Gooseneck = up to 32,300 lbs if needed (this might happen in 2018 model year)
GCVW = Small change to go along with 5th Wheel towing bump
Ford F350 & F450 Pickup (Class 3 trucks)
This is Ford's big year with a change to an aluminum body and common body from F150-F450. The weight saving in the frame will go to beefing up the frame where Ford is considerably weak in. It is known at this time that the cab frame will be of box construction and the bed frame will stay C-channel. I am surprised they are not adopting a full box frame construction. The C-channel construction will be beefed up with additional cross members. Since RAM upped the torque to 900 ft lbs I expect the new powerstroke will be rated at 900 ft lbs or more with a smaller bump in horsepower.
Engine Power = ~450 hp & ~900+ ft lbs torque
Towing #'s
RAWR = 9,500 - 10,000 lbs .... this number should stay under 10k lbs. (F450 might have a slight advantage to the F350 if both are rated to J2807 but should be very close)
GCVW 40,400 (F450) 35,000 (F350) by making the truck lighter I don't think these numbers will need to go up ... maybe just a touch to make marketing happy
Gooseneck towing = ~31,600 lbs. (Ford limits 5th wheel towing to 26.5 k lbs. because of the hitch)
Andy
Alie and Jims Carrilite said
03:56 PM Mar 18, 2016
So what would the price tag be for a decently appointed 3500 Ram or 350 Ford?
Glenn West said
03:56 PM Mar 18, 2016
Getting LDT more towing capacity. no mention of additional axle capacity. Death trap. One needs 20-25% pin weight to be safe. Those pin weights don't work with these trucks with high 20+ weights.
Cummins12V98 said
08:39 AM Mar 19, 2016
Alie and Jims Carrilite wrote:
So what would the price tag be for a decently appointed 3500 Ram or 350 Ford?
Most every option on my 15 RAM I ordered.
Dave and Denise said
07:46 AM Mar 26, 2016
I paid $65k out the door, includes tax and tag for a 2016 F-450 Lariat. I was just told that a 2017 would be "more". If you are looking for a F-350 with DRW and Diesel, you might want to consider moving up to the F-450. There isn't that much of a price difference once you build up the 350 to what comes standard on the 450.
ahull said
10:41 PM Jul 27, 2016
Some of the 2017 F450 specs are out.
Horsepower 440
Torque 925 ft lb
GCVW 41,800
I didn't see base weight or rear axle ratings but per J2807 to get to 41,800 the rear axle rating will need to be around 9,400 lbs. based on 2016 numbers.
Looks like my predictions were pretty close. This is a completely new truck with all aluminum body that is glued together. My personal recommendation if you are looking at the Ford is to skip this model year and wait until 2018.
Andy
Cummins12V98 said
04:19 PM Jul 28, 2016
At 9,400# that is still 350# below the current 3500 RAM Dually.
Really sad thing is they did not change their puck pattern to be larger front to back. B&W will only rate their Ford Puck hitch 20K.
Getting LDT more towing capacity. no mention of additional axle capacity. Death trap. One needs 20-25% pin weight to be safe. Those pin weights don't work with these trucks with high 20+ weights.
I think "Death Trap" is a little dramatic. It is certainly possible to overload a truck, but not all LDT's are overloaded. My RGAWR is 9,650 and my truck's RAW loaded to travel with trailer hooked up is 7,520 (my pin weight is 3,200, my trailer weighs 15,180 so 21% pin weight). I have a lot of headroom left on my rear axle (2,130 lbs). No, I can't tow a 25,000 lbs trailer ... but I didn't buy a 25,000 lbs trailer. My CGVWR is 32,100 lbs and my CGVW weight is 24,840 lbs, again, plenty of headroom (7,260). So you can see that I'm not running at the limit on any of my weights. I bought a truck and trailer combination that uses less than 80% of my truck's capacity ... 77% actually. Not everyone needs or wants an HD truck. For those do, have at it. But please don't suggest that a LDT is a "Death Trap". Now if you buy too much trailer for your truck, that is a different situation which is easily avoidable with a pocket calculator and the weight ratings of the tow vehicle and the trailer.
Bill and Linda said
11:20 AM Sep 7, 2016
ahull wrote:
Some of the 2017 F450 specs are out.
Horsepower 440
Torque 925 ft lb
GCVW 41,800
I didn't see base weight or rear axle ratings but per J2807 to get to 41,800 the rear axle rating will need to be around 9,400 lbs. based on 2016 numbers.
Looks like my predictions were pretty close. This is a completely new truck with all aluminum body that is glued together. My personal recommendation if you are looking at the Ford is to skip this model year and wait until 2018.
Andy
Completely new rear axle and frame allows 9,900lbs RAWR for "pickup" F-450 / MY2017 (Less than some version of F-350 for MY2017)
Bill and Linda said
11:23 AM Sep 7, 2016
Cummins12V98 wrote:
At 9,400# that is still 350# below the current 3500 RAM Dually.
Really sad thing is they did not change their puck pattern to be larger front to back. B&W will only rate their Ford Puck hitch 20K.
As noted to Andy's comment - 2017 F-450 "pickup" has 9,900# RAWR per Ford's published specs.
RonC said
03:20 PM Sep 7, 2016
You know, I've been reading these posts VERY closely and I can NOT figure out Cummins12V98's preferred truck brand ... I mean his screen name doesn't give me any clues, and his comments are pretty neutral. Can anybody help me with this?
-- Edited by RonC on Wednesday 7th of September 2016 03:21:47 PM
Alie and Jims Carrilite said
05:27 PM Sep 7, 2016
Ram-
Dodge originally used the Cummins 12valve 5.9 liter engine in the first generation of diesel trucks. I believe forum member Cummins12v98 had a 1998 model that he really liked.
RonC said
06:13 PM Sep 7, 2016
No kidding ... 😎 Thanks for clearing that up.
Cummins12V98 said
07:23 PM Sep 7, 2016
RonC wrote:
You know, I've been reading these posts VERY closely and I can NOT figure out Cummins12V98's preferred truck brand ... I mean his screen name doesn't give me any clues, and his comments are pretty neutral. Can anybody help me with this?
-- Edited by RonC on Wednesday 7th of September 2016 03:21:47 PM
HAAAAA, too funny!
Cummins12V98 said
07:28 PM Sep 7, 2016
Alie and Jims Carrilite wrote:
Ram- Dodge originally used the Cummins 12valve 5.9 liter engine in the first generation of diesel trucks. I believe forum member Cummins12v98 had a 1998 model that he really liked.
Yes my first Cummins came in a 98 RAM 2500 4X4 bought with around 50K from a friend and put over 300K on it then sold it to my Son when the wife wanted too large a RV to be safely pulled by the 98.
Figured the truck would fall apart but was proved to be very wrong. It still has the original tie rod ends and u joints just to mention a few.
RonC said
05:17 PM Sep 8, 2016
Awesome! Good maintenance is the "secret sauce" to truck longevity. If you take care of them, they will take care of you. I think most of us (guys anyway) have a vehicle that holds a special place in our hearts. I know you already know this, but Ram is making a very nice truck! Saw a new dually on the road today ... nice looking ride.
Glenn West said
06:53 PM Sep 10, 2016
RonC wrote:
Glenn West wrote:
Getting LDT more towing capacity. no mention of additional axle capacity. Death trap. One needs 20-25% pin weight to be safe. Those pin weights don't work with these trucks with high 20+ weights.
I think "Death Trap" is a little dramatic. It is certainly possible to overload a truck, but not all LDT's are overloaded. My RGAWR is 9,650 and my truck's RAW loaded to travel with trailer hooked up is 7,520 (my pin weight is 3,200, my trailer weighs 15,180 so 21% pin weight). I have a lot of headroom left on my rear axle (2,130 lbs). No, I can't tow a 25,000 lbs trailer ... but I didn't buy a 25,000 lbs trailer. My CGVWR is 32,100 lbs and my CGVW weight is 24,840 lbs, again, plenty of headroom (7,260). So you can see that I'm not running at the limit on any of my weights. I bought a truck and trailer combination that uses less than 80% of my truck's capacity ... 77% actually. Not everyone needs or wants an HD truck. For those do, have at it. But please don't suggest that a LDT is a "Death Trap". Now if you buy too much trailer for your truck, that is a different situation which is easily avoidable with a pocket calculator and the weight ratings of the tow vehicle and the trailer.
What I getting at people will tow a 23k 5ther with a 1 ton truck. As they up hp power people will tow even more. No one has raised the rear axle capacity.
RonC said
09:48 PM Sep 10, 2016
I agree that nobody should exceed the capacity of their truck. So what's so magical about that? Do the math, match the the truck to the load, have a nice day! No Death Traps, just people who can't (or won't) add and subtract. This is NOT rocket science, just match your towing vehicle to the load you're towing and go on down the road. This shouldn't be a "buy a truck that will cover your butt because you can't add or subtract" discussion. Armed with the right information, you (or anyone) should be able to select the appropriate tow vehicle ... which is not ALWAYS a HDT. A HDT will cover almost all situations, but only if you don't take the time to do it the right way. A HDT is a significant vehicle and there are MANY situations where it is so big that it won't work ... Some state parks are an example I can think of. What good is the ability to "haul anything" if you can't park it (fit) when you get there? The correct solution is to understand the various ratings and loads, and to PROPERLY match the truck to the load.
-- Edited by RonC on Saturday 10th of September 2016 09:54:48 PM
-- Edited by RonC on Saturday 10th of September 2016 09:56:42 PM
-- Edited by RonC on Saturday 10th of September 2016 09:57:59 PM
Glenn West said
10:20 AM Sep 11, 2016
Maybe my statement death trap was extreme. Maybe. It is true most duallys will handle the majority of 5thers on the market. But that the max 5ther wheel towing on new duallys, add 20-25% pin weight, fuel, passengers, normal carrying items, pin is exceeded. Now the major owners never see this forum. Never a truckers forum. Dealer states this truck will haul anything. I can't tell you the times I have been told a dually will haul anything and they truly believed what they saying. And now they increasing power and tow capacity! Hence my statement. Now one could get a 5500 or such to handle the pin. But I don't want that truck. My truck rides better and half the cost. Just as good mpg or better. My truck is 4' longer than a cc lb dually. Have many times parked my dually in overflow area due to it's length. So the HDT also. Same height as camper and same width as dually. If I didn't haul a Smart, I could be same length as dually. Same footprint. DRV is decreasing pin weight on their Full house units so they don't exceed the dually pin capacity. This is safe? So my apology if I have offended anyone.
RonC said
04:10 PM Sep 11, 2016
Glenn ... we're good. At some point the DOT is going to get interested in all these RV's running around. When that happens, everybody will get interested in weights and ratings. We traded a 2014 SRW F350 in on our current 2016 F350 DRW because I learned about weights and ratings (primarily from this forum) and I scaled my truck and trailer and became aware that I was overweight. Not grossly so, but overweight none the less. To use the ever popular "it towed and handled the load just fine" ... including a trip thru the Eisenhower Tunnel and long up/down grades associated with that. But once I learned about my weights and ratings, I spent the money to get legal and I firmly believe others should too. We share the road with them and it concerns me that so many might not be fully within the envelope. I'm a pilot and safety is always a big deal. I bought the wrong truck out of ignorance and fixed that once I gained the knowledge I should have had to begin with. I will say that the new pickup trucks are way more capable than just a few years ago. My DRW F350 has a GVWR of 14,000 lbs (that's getting close to class IV truck range). My RAWR is 9,650 lbs and the CGWR is 32,100 lbs. My RAW loaded to travel (without trailer) is 4,320 lbs. this leaves 5,330 available for the pin weight ... my actual pin weight is 3,200 lbs so I have 2,130 reserve capacity. These are pretty strong numbers for a class 3 pickup truck.
-- Edited by RonC on Sunday 11th of September 2016 04:20:18 PM
-- Edited by RonC on Sunday 11th of September 2016 04:38:23 PM
-- Edited by RonC on Sunday 11th of September 2016 04:39:31 PM
-- Edited by RonC on Sunday 11th of September 2016 07:24:23 PM
Cummins12V98 said
09:45 AM Sep 12, 2016
RonC it's nice to see someone when presented with facts that is not so stubborn as some!!!
RonC said
07:43 PM Sep 12, 2016
Indeed. I have learned a lot from this forum and I am very grateful for everyone's input and help. It's all good. BTW, those airbags pumped up to 55 psi leveled my rig out perfectly.😎
Here are my predictions for what the Big 3 are going to do for 2017 model years.
Chevy/GMC 3500
2016 was GM's year to shine and generally speaking their towing numbers are a lot more realistic than Ford or RAM.
Engine Power = No Change
Towing #'s = No Change
RAM 3500
RAM 3500 had a recent H/O bump in the engine to 900 ft lbs. and they are positioned to increase their towing numbers if they need to without any changes to the truck. I expect they will wait for Ford's numbers to come out and then up their towing #'s to match or exceed Ford's as long as the 5th wheel/gooseneck trailer weight is below 32,300 lbs.
Engine Power = No Change
Towing #'s
RAWR = No change
5th Wheel/Gooseneck = up to 32,300 lbs if needed (this might happen in 2018 model year)
GCVW = Small change to go along with 5th Wheel towing bump
Ford F350 & F450 Pickup (Class 3 trucks)
This is Ford's big year with a change to an aluminum body and common body from F150-F450. The weight saving in the frame will go to beefing up the frame where Ford is considerably weak in. It is known at this time that the cab frame will be of box construction and the bed frame will stay C-channel. I am surprised they are not adopting a full box frame construction. The C-channel construction will be beefed up with additional cross members. Since RAM upped the torque to 900 ft lbs I expect the new powerstroke will be rated at 900 ft lbs or more with a smaller bump in horsepower.
Engine Power = ~450 hp & ~900+ ft lbs torque
Towing #'s
RAWR = 9,500 - 10,000 lbs .... this number should stay under 10k lbs. (F450 might have a slight advantage to the F350 if both are rated to J2807 but should be very close)
GCVW 40,400 (F450) 35,000 (F350) by making the truck lighter I don't think these numbers will need to go up ... maybe just a touch to make marketing happy
Gooseneck towing = ~31,600 lbs. (Ford limits 5th wheel towing to 26.5 k lbs. because of the hitch)
Andy
Most every option on my 15 RAM I ordered.
Some of the 2017 F450 specs are out.
Horsepower 440
Torque 925 ft lb
GCVW 41,800
I didn't see base weight or rear axle ratings but per J2807 to get to 41,800 the rear axle rating will need to be around 9,400 lbs. based on 2016 numbers.
Looks like my predictions were pretty close. This is a completely new truck with all aluminum body that is glued together. My personal recommendation if you are looking at the Ford is to skip this model year and wait until 2018.
Andy
Really sad thing is they did not change their puck pattern to be larger front to back. B&W will only rate their Ford Puck hitch 20K.
youtu.be/Dzx7SL5AbE0
Andy
I think "Death Trap" is a little dramatic. It is certainly possible to overload a truck, but not all LDT's are overloaded. My RGAWR is 9,650 and my truck's RAW loaded to travel with trailer hooked up is 7,520 (my pin weight is 3,200, my trailer weighs 15,180 so 21% pin weight). I have a lot of headroom left on my rear axle (2,130 lbs). No, I can't tow a 25,000 lbs trailer ... but I didn't buy a 25,000 lbs trailer. My CGVWR is 32,100 lbs and my CGVW weight is 24,840 lbs, again, plenty of headroom (7,260). So you can see that I'm not running at the limit on any of my weights. I bought a truck and trailer combination that uses less than 80% of my truck's capacity ... 77% actually. Not everyone needs or wants an HD truck. For those do, have at it. But please don't suggest that a LDT is a "Death Trap". Now if you buy too much trailer for your truck, that is a different situation which is easily avoidable with a pocket calculator and the weight ratings of the tow vehicle and the trailer.
Completely new rear axle and frame allows 9,900lbs RAWR for "pickup" F-450 / MY2017 (Less than some version of F-350 for MY2017)
As noted to Andy's comment - 2017 F-450 "pickup" has 9,900# RAWR per Ford's published specs.
You know, I've been reading these posts VERY closely and I can NOT figure out Cummins12V98's preferred truck brand ... I mean his screen name doesn't give me any clues, and his comments are pretty neutral. Can anybody help me with this?
-- Edited by RonC on Wednesday 7th of September 2016 03:21:47 PM
Dodge originally used the Cummins 12valve 5.9 liter engine in the first generation of diesel trucks. I believe forum member Cummins12v98 had a 1998 model that he really liked.
HAAAAA, too funny!
Yes my first Cummins came in a 98 RAM 2500 4X4 bought with around 50K from a friend and put over 300K on it then sold it to my Son when the wife wanted too large a RV to be safely pulled by the 98.
Figured the truck would fall apart but was proved to be very wrong. It still has the original tie rod ends and u joints just to mention a few.
What I getting at people will tow a 23k 5ther with a 1 ton truck. As they up hp power people will tow even more. No one has raised the rear axle capacity.
I agree that nobody should exceed the capacity of their truck. So what's so magical about that? Do the math, match the the truck to the load, have a nice day! No Death Traps, just people who can't (or won't) add and subtract. This is NOT rocket science, just match your towing vehicle to the load you're towing and go on down the road. This shouldn't be a "buy a truck that will cover your butt because you can't add or subtract" discussion. Armed with the right information, you (or anyone) should be able to select the appropriate tow vehicle ... which is not ALWAYS a HDT. A HDT will cover almost all situations, but only if you don't take the time to do it the right way. A HDT is a significant vehicle and there are MANY situations where it is so big that it won't work ... Some state parks are an example I can think of. What good is the ability to "haul anything" if you can't park it (fit) when you get there? The correct solution is to understand the various ratings and loads, and to PROPERLY match the truck to the load.
-- Edited by RonC on Saturday 10th of September 2016 09:54:48 PM
-- Edited by RonC on Saturday 10th of September 2016 09:56:42 PM
-- Edited by RonC on Saturday 10th of September 2016 09:57:59 PM
Glenn ... we're good. At some point the DOT is going to get interested in all these RV's running around. When that happens, everybody will get interested in weights and ratings. We traded a 2014 SRW F350 in on our current 2016 F350 DRW because I learned about weights and ratings (primarily from this forum) and I scaled my truck and trailer and became aware that I was overweight. Not grossly so, but overweight none the less. To use the ever popular "it towed and handled the load just fine" ... including a trip thru the Eisenhower Tunnel and long up/down grades associated with that. But once I learned about my weights and ratings, I spent the money to get legal and I firmly believe others should too. We share the road with them and it concerns me that so many might not be fully within the envelope. I'm a pilot and safety is always a big deal. I bought the wrong truck out of ignorance and fixed that once I gained the knowledge I should have had to begin with. I will say that the new pickup trucks are way more capable than just a few years ago. My DRW F350 has a GVWR of 14,000 lbs (that's getting close to class IV truck range). My RAWR is 9,650 lbs and the CGWR is 32,100 lbs. My RAW loaded to travel (without trailer) is 4,320 lbs. this leaves 5,330 available for the pin weight ... my actual pin weight is 3,200 lbs so I have 2,130 reserve capacity. These are pretty strong numbers for a class 3 pickup truck.
-- Edited by RonC on Sunday 11th of September 2016 04:20:18 PM
-- Edited by RonC on Sunday 11th of September 2016 04:38:23 PM
-- Edited by RonC on Sunday 11th of September 2016 04:39:31 PM
-- Edited by RonC on Sunday 11th of September 2016 07:24:23 PM