The guys at www.tfltruck.com recently announced the gold hitch award for the Heavy Duty trucks and the winner is the Chevy 3500. They run the trucks up the Ike Gauntlet with a new rating system towing a goose-neck trailer 21,400 lbs. They work pretty hard to get the tongue weight right and keep within specs.
The Ford was absent this year so it was between the Ram 3500 & the Chevy 3500. Even though the RAM has a bunch more torque & better rear axle rating (RAM 4.10 vs. Chevy 3.73) the Chevy did better down hill with grade shifting & 10 seconds faster going up. The theory is power is reduced to the RAM under the conditions it was run....maybe matching power to the load?
Pretty interesting comparison that shows the capability of these trucks.
10 seconds over 10 minutes can be made up with higher humidity and wind conditions. Different gear ratios will perform differently at different speeds.
As far as braking, the proper way to descend a grade is lock the trans in the gear you would have came up the hill in and set cruise. Example, on a 6% grade I typically select 4th gear TH and EB on full and set cruise to 55. I may or may not need to touch the brakes if I do I just get back to 55 and set cruise again. GM's computer kicks down the trans sooner than the RAM does and it works well but that does NOT mean their EB will hold the load better.
GM rates their HP and TQ differently than RAM and Ford. They have always done better than one would think if only looking at numbers.
How did both trucks do with trans, cooling and brake temps? That would be nice to know.
Fact still remains the RAM is SAE rated to tow MUCH more weight than the GM.
GM is a nice truck it would be my second choice for sure!
Bill and Linda said
10:50 AM Mar 16, 2016
I will not enter into the "my truck is best" discussion. But I will comment on the trans and engine cooling temps. Pulling a trailer exactly the same weight over west coast mountains, up I-17 from Phoenix to Flagstaff and up around Alaska where there are 10% grades, the GM never even began to have temperature rise in the engine or transmission. The top temperature I've seen on the Allison was about 185-190 - backing a trailer up a hill - not pulling up a mountain. Most of the time the trans runs 75 degrees over outside temps ~150 or less on the readout. The engine runs as 205-210. If it rises more than 15 degrees the fan goes into high gear and down it comes immediately. One can see the temp gauge dropping. Even at 115 degrees outside temp I've never seen the GM "heat up" pulling a 21.5K trailer.
As to braking, the GM's biggest advantage (if you want to allow that word) is the high RPM limit of the Duramax over the Cummins (and the Ford Power Stroke). The braking "red line" on the Duramax is 4,800 RPM. (Not a typo.) According to the RAM Commercial guys at the factory the RAM's top braking RPM is ~3,400. Higher RPM equals more effective engine braking. That said, I consider the engine brake on the RAM to be superior to the GM but the high engine RPM allowed by the GM sort of makes up for that. I've pulled now with both the same trailer and weight.
You will notice in my sig I now own a RAM. So none of this is "Fan Boy" talk. Just facts from long experience with the GM product. But, for my trailer and what we are now doing the RAM 5500HD was a better long term choice as the trailer can simply overload the rear axle of the GM and RAM 3500HD trucks including the F-450 (pickup.) It's almost always the rear axle rating that runs out before the tow rating. (The OEM's do that on purpose as has been long discussed on this forum.)
Just sayin'..... 10 seconds uphill better... is a non starter as an important distinction. In the big scheme of things is 10 seconds going to be deal breaker? Only if you have money on a short race.
Now, talk about towing capability and safety and reliability... those are higher priorities... by far.... IMHO.
ahull said
03:38 PM Mar 16, 2016
BiggarView wrote:
Just sayin'..... 10 seconds uphill better... is a non starter as an important distinction. In the big scheme of things is 10 seconds going to be deal breaker? Only if you have money on a short race.
Now, talk about towing capability and safety and reliability... those are higher priorities... by far.... IMHO.
I do think this shows a real world towing capability .... the 2015 Ford F350 hauled a similar trailer with a similar time last year. So to me there is little different in the weight hauling capabilities of the big three and I don't think any of them stand out. Really comes down to personal preference and a due diligence to make sure you stay within your towing weights/ratings.
A higher priority is safety & reliability but that is harder to quantify. From personal experience reliability is part design but more owner abuse/use. The biggest problem I have seen with diesel trucks is the use of tuners.....I personally would stay away from them and never buy a truck that had/has one installed.
Andy
BiggarView said
04:13 PM Mar 16, 2016
Keeping away from tuners... for the vast majority of us should be a no-brainer as it's probably above our pay grade. I prefer the KISS principle in this instance and keeping a potential tow vehicle mechanically in factory configuration is the way to go for me. Less to mess with or have unexpected things to contend with. YMMV as they say especially if you know what you are doing. I am tech curious about these innovations but I don't think I would go as far as actually installing such goodies on my engine. Been there done that in my younger days when testosterone was a bigger influence in my decision making... I consider myself "seasoned" in my judgement these days. (Yep still prone to mistakes though.)
I agree safety and reliablility are harder to quantify and that most trucks in most applications are more or less equal so it does indeed come down to personal preference. The axiom of finding your trailer then selecting the truck for the job, each according to specs and need is just plain common sense. If there is more than one candidate... heh, you get to choose.... it's all good.
Glenn West said
03:42 PM Mar 20, 2016
Chevy doesn't have air ride suspension. Dodge does. Nuff said.
CJSX2fromCT said
05:25 AM Mar 21, 2016
Chevy doesn't have air ride suspension. Dodge does
So install it.... took me about an hour to do....
Glenn West said
03:04 PM Mar 22, 2016
You didn't install air ride suspension in 1 hour. You might very well have installed air bags. Dodge has the option of true air ride. No stacked spring pack. Large air bags instead. Has a leveling valve and on board air.
Cummins12V98 said
10:55 AM Mar 23, 2016
Glenn West wrote:
You didn't install air ride suspension in 1 hour. You might very well have installed air bags. Dodge has the option of true air ride. No stacked spring pack. Large air bags instead. Has a leveling valve and on board air.
Glen is correct. The system is awesome. Truck has 9,580# sitting on rear tires ion pic. Truck looks the same running solo.
Bill and Linda said
02:22 PM Mar 24, 2016
Cummins12V98 wrote:
Glenn West wrote:
You didn't install air ride suspension in 1 hour. You might very well have installed air bags. Dodge has the option of true air ride. No stacked spring pack. Large air bags instead. Has a leveling valve and on board air.
Glen is correct. The system is awesome. Truck has 9,580# sitting on rear tires ion pic. Truck looks the same running solo.
This is a lighter duty version of the Link air-ride we have on the RAM 5500HD which is rated at 13,500lbs RAWR. There is no question this is a fine system. True air-ride - no leaf or coil-over springs. These are more expensive but an excellent choice, IMO, for those pulling heavy pin weights to better protect truck and trailer or simply wanting a better ride. It does have more moving parts - compressor, etc. which naturally can fail. But IMO one should consider true air-ride - OEM if available - or after market if not - either is fine - if the budget can accommodate it.
Do recall, installing air-ride or air-bags or "helper springs" does NOT increase the rear axle rating or trucks capacity regardless of the after-market specifications. Only the original manufacture, RAM, Ford or GM can set axle ratings due to other components which are part of the equation beyond the suspension system.
Cummins12V98 said
06:24 PM Mar 24, 2016
Bill
Have you posted pics of your new truck on this site yet? I see a little Avitar pic.
Bill and Linda said
05:58 AM Mar 25, 2016
Cummins12V98 wrote:
Bill
Have you posted pics of your new truck on this site yet? I see a little Avitar p
Tom at Classy posted some - You can go here - public address. There are videos of mine and pix / videos of Neil’s as well as a couple of others I sort of was involved with. The truck is a very good match for heavy rigs IMO - especially with a hauler bed, aux tank, etc. Pretty hard to overload this truck with "most" trailers.
Curious, how much pin weight do you have on your Majestic?
Cummins12V98 said
10:28 AM Mar 26, 2016
Bill thanks for the pics! That is down right BEAUTIFUL !
Bill and Linda said
01:25 PM Mar 26, 2016
Glenn West wrote:
Curious, how much pin weight do you have on your Majestic?
About 4,850# pin when we load up. For a NH its a lighter pin and was designed that way with the generator under the rig behind the trailer's rear axle. Front AC is also moved more reward as well. I have some 2,250# of excess rear axle capacity left on the truck. So I can add about anything I want, battery expansion or cargo wise, with concern. Trailer is 2,000#'s under GVWR when loaded for travel with full water.I have lots of trailer storage space with that generator location and it is still easy to service the genny.
Bill and Linda said
01:26 PM Mar 26, 2016
Cummins12V98 wrote:
Bill thanks for the pics! That is down right BEAUTIFUL !
Thank you very much. Classy does a nice job. They've done 5 of these 5500's recently I know of. All very pretty trucks. Nice people to work with.
The guys at www.tfltruck.com recently announced the gold hitch award for the Heavy Duty trucks and the winner is the Chevy 3500. They run the trucks up the Ike Gauntlet with a new rating system towing a goose-neck trailer 21,400 lbs. They work pretty hard to get the tongue weight right and keep within specs.
The Ford was absent this year so it was between the Ram 3500 & the Chevy 3500. Even though the RAM has a bunch more torque & better rear axle rating (RAM 4.10 vs. Chevy 3.73) the Chevy did better down hill with grade shifting & 10 seconds faster going up. The theory is power is reduced to the RAM under the conditions it was run....maybe matching power to the load?
Pretty interesting comparison that shows the capability of these trucks.
Chevy 3500 - www.tfltruck.com/2016/03/2016-chevy-silverado-3500-hd-surprises-on-the-ike-gauntlet-video/
RAM 3500 - www.tfltruck.com/2016/01/2016-ram-hd-3500-uses-900-lb-ft-of-torque-to-go-up-ike-gauntlet-video/
Andy
As far as braking, the proper way to descend a grade is lock the trans in the gear you would have came up the hill in and set cruise. Example, on a 6% grade I typically select 4th gear TH and EB on full and set cruise to 55. I may or may not need to touch the brakes if I do I just get back to 55 and set cruise again. GM's computer kicks down the trans sooner than the RAM does and it works well but that does NOT mean their EB will hold the load better.
GM rates their HP and TQ differently than RAM and Ford. They have always done better than one would think if only looking at numbers.
How did both trucks do with trans, cooling and brake temps? That would be nice to know.
Fact still remains the RAM is SAE rated to tow MUCH more weight than the GM.
GM is a nice truck it would be my second choice for sure!
I will not enter into the "my truck is best" discussion. But I will comment on the trans and engine cooling temps. Pulling a trailer exactly the same weight over west coast mountains, up I-17 from Phoenix to Flagstaff and up around Alaska where there are 10% grades, the GM never even began to have temperature rise in the engine or transmission. The top temperature I've seen on the Allison was about 185-190 - backing a trailer up a hill - not pulling up a mountain. Most of the time the trans runs 75 degrees over outside temps ~150 or less on the readout. The engine runs as 205-210. If it rises more than 15 degrees the fan goes into high gear and down it comes immediately. One can see the temp gauge dropping. Even at 115 degrees outside temp I've never seen the GM "heat up" pulling a 21.5K trailer.
As to braking, the GM's biggest advantage (if you want to allow that word) is the high RPM limit of the Duramax over the Cummins (and the Ford Power Stroke). The braking "red line" on the Duramax is 4,800 RPM. (Not a typo.) According to the RAM Commercial guys at the factory the RAM's top braking RPM is ~3,400. Higher RPM equals more effective engine braking. That said, I consider the engine brake on the RAM to be superior to the GM but the high engine RPM allowed by the GM sort of makes up for that. I've pulled now with both the same trailer and weight.
You will notice in my sig I now own a RAM. So none of this is "Fan Boy" talk. Just facts from long experience with the GM product. But, for my trailer and what we are now doing the RAM 5500HD was a better long term choice as the trailer can simply overload the rear axle of the GM and RAM 3500HD trucks including the F-450 (pickup.) It's almost always the rear axle rating that runs out before the tow rating. (The OEM's do that on purpose as has been long discussed on this forum.)
https://youtu.be/_f3CAnH7WIM
This is a good comparison of frame strength too.
Just sayin'..... 10 seconds uphill better... is a non starter as an important distinction. In the big scheme of things is 10 seconds going to be deal breaker? Only if you have money on a short race.
Now, talk about towing capability and safety and reliability... those are higher priorities... by far.... IMHO.
I do think this shows a real world towing capability .... the 2015 Ford F350 hauled a similar trailer with a similar time last year. So to me there is little different in the weight hauling capabilities of the big three and I don't think any of them stand out. Really comes down to personal preference and a due diligence to make sure you stay within your towing weights/ratings.
A higher priority is safety & reliability but that is harder to quantify. From personal experience reliability is part design but more owner abuse/use. The biggest problem I have seen with diesel trucks is the use of tuners.....I personally would stay away from them and never buy a truck that had/has one installed.
Andy
Keeping away from tuners... for the vast majority of us should be a no-brainer as it's probably above our pay grade. I prefer the KISS principle in this instance and keeping a potential tow vehicle mechanically in factory configuration is the way to go for me. Less to mess with or have unexpected things to contend with. YMMV as they say especially if you know what you are doing. I am tech curious about these innovations but I don't think I would go as far as actually installing such goodies on my engine. Been there done that in my younger days when testosterone was a bigger influence in my decision making... I consider myself "seasoned" in my judgement these days. (Yep still prone to mistakes though.
)
I agree safety and reliablility are harder to quantify and that most trucks in most applications are more or less equal so it does indeed come down to personal preference. The axiom of finding your trailer then selecting the truck for the job, each according to specs and need is just plain common sense. If there is more than one candidate... heh, you get to choose....
it's all good.
So install it.... took me about an hour to do....
Glen is correct. The system is awesome. Truck has 9,580# sitting on rear tires ion pic. Truck looks the same running solo.
This is a lighter duty version of the Link air-ride we have on the RAM 5500HD which is rated at 13,500lbs RAWR. There is no question this is a fine system. True air-ride - no leaf or coil-over springs. These are more expensive but an excellent choice, IMO, for those pulling heavy pin weights to better protect truck and trailer or simply wanting a better ride. It does have more moving parts - compressor, etc. which naturally can fail. But IMO one should consider true air-ride - OEM if available - or after market if not - either is fine - if the budget can accommodate it.
Do recall, installing air-ride or air-bags or "helper springs" does NOT increase the rear axle rating or trucks capacity regardless of the after-market specifications. Only the original manufacture, RAM, Ford or GM can set axle ratings due to other components which are part of the equation beyond the suspension system.
Have you posted pics of your new truck on this site yet? I see a little Avitar pic.
Tom at Classy posted some - You can go here - public address. There are videos of mine and pix / videos of Neil’s as well as a couple of others I sort of was involved with. The truck is a very good match for heavy rigs IMO - especially with a hauler bed, aux tank, etc. Pretty hard to overload this truck with "most" trailers.
https://www.facebook.com/152873031406184/photos/pcb.1296382867055189/1296382710388538/?type=3&theater
About 4,850# pin when we load up. For a NH its a lighter pin and was designed that way with the generator under the rig behind the trailer's rear axle. Front AC is also moved more reward as well. I have some 2,250# of excess rear axle capacity left on the truck. So I can add about anything I want, battery expansion or cargo wise, with concern. Trailer is 2,000#'s under GVWR when loaded for travel with full water. I have lots of trailer storage space with that generator location and it is still easy to service the genny.
Thank you very much. Classy does a nice job. They've done 5 of these 5500's recently I know of. All very pretty trucks. Nice people to work with.