These weights are extrapolated from a Class 8 semi and signify estimated potential design limits for each class of truck. These numbers are not to replace manufacturers towing capacities but were generated to give a rough idea of what each class of truck is capable of hauling for 5th wheel weights. Curb weights are estimates based on 4x4 crew cab trucks and GVWR are DOT limits.
Couple interesting observations are that manufactures ratings for class 1 & 2a are within these calculated numbers. Class 2b & 3 manufacture ratings are close to or exceed these numbers.
Especially for Ford & Ram, Class 4 & 5 trucks would benefit from the Class 2b & 3 more powerful engines and exhaust brakes to create future more capable towing vehicles.
Class 1 Tacoma, Colorado
Curb Weight: 3,900 lbs
GVWR: 6,000 lbs
Trailer Weight: 8,925 lbs
GCVW: 12,825 lbs
Class 2a F150 1500
Curb Weight: 5,000 lbs
GVWR: 8,500 lbs
Trailer Weight: 12,250 lbs
GCVW: 17,250 lbs
Class 2b F250 2500
Curb Weight: 7,500 lbs
GVWR: 10,000 lbs
Trailer Weight: 15,625 lbs
GCVW: 23,125 lbs
Class 3 F350, F450 Pickup, 3500
Curb Weight: 8,500 lbs
GVWR: 14,000 lbs
Trailer Weight: 20,375 lbs
GCVW: 28,875 lbs
Class 4 F450, 4500
Curb Weight: 9,500 lbs
GVWR: 16,000 lbs
Trailer Weight: 23,125 lbs
GCVW: 32,625 lbs
Class 5 F550, 5500
Curb Weight: 10,500 lbs
GVWR: 19,500 lbs
Trailer Weight: 27,375 lbs
GCVW: 37,875 lbs
Class 6 F650, C6500
Curb Weight: 12,500 lbs
GVWR: 26,000 lbs
Trailer Weight: 35,375 lbs
GCVW: 47,875 lbs
Class 7 F750, C7500, Freightliner
Curb Weight: 15,000 lbs
GVWR: 33,000 lbs
Trailer Weight: 44,250 lbs
GCVW: 59,250 lbs
Class 8 C8500, Semi Tractor
Curb Weight: 20,000 lbs
GVWR: >33,000 lbs
Trailer Weight: 50,000 lbs
GCVW: 70,000 lbs
-- Edited by ahull on Wednesday 2nd of March 2016 10:05:04 AM
MarkS said
02:42 AM Feb 24, 2016
The GCVW of a class 8 is 80k pounds. Very few class 8 tractors will weigh 20k. A heavy one is about 18k.
nineback said
05:59 AM Feb 24, 2016
A 2016 Ram 3500 dually can have these specs which meet the SAE J2807 standard for measuring towing capacity.
Curb Weight: 8,319 lbs
GVWR: 14,000 lbs
Trailer Weight: 30,310 lbs
GCVW: 39,100 lbs
Bill and Linda said
08:52 AM Feb 24, 2016
The listing of ratings is good and does a nice job of showing there are clear differences between class III and class IV trucks – regardless of the badge on the side.
For those doing research and noting the above listing, where one runs into trouble with trailer tow ratings is not what the truck can tow including meeting the SAE J2807 standard, it is also what the truck’s rear axle can carry.This is where all the “I can tow this much” numbers fail as the defining point for truck selection.
The class III trucks, the F-450 pickup and the RAM 3500HD lack the rear axle capacity for many big 5ers due to the RV 5th wheel’s pin weight especially with aux fuel tanks and the sometime required hauler bed, not to mention tools and generators, etc..
The towing demonstrations and certifications are done with gooseneck trailers with pin weights at the bottom end (15% of the trailer weight) of the allowable pin weight and naturally without one pound of extra weight in the truck. One will never be able to find a 5th wheel RV that weighs, for example 26,000lbs and a pin weight of 3,900lbs, loaded for travel.Or a 30,000lb 5er with a pin weight of 4,500lbs.
At the top end, these towing numbers for 5th wheel RV’s in the real world are simply not achievable if one wants to stay within all the ratings of the tow vehicle.
As has been said about many of the newer Class III trucks, “They can tow it, but they can’t carry it.”
Do consider all the ratings when selecting a tow vehicle.
Thanks, Andy for the listing.
Cummins12V98 said
04:02 AM Feb 25, 2016
Class 3 F350, F450 Pickup, 3500
Curb Weight: 8,500 lbs
GVWR: 14,000 lbs
Trailer Weight: 20,375 lbs
GCVW: 28,875 lbs
My RAM 3500 Cummins/Aisin 4.10 is SAE rated at 37,800# GCVWR you will never tow that combined weight with a 5th wheel and still be within the 9,750# rear axle rating..
I do tow a combined 32,500# and within front and rear axle ratings.
The 14K GVWR is just a number to keep truck in it's Class 3 rating and has nothing to with capabilities or limitations.
The RAM 3500 is in reality a class 4 truck.
Glenn West said
04:10 PM Feb 25, 2016
Weights don't concern us much. Check signature. It is one sweet ride too
Cummins12V98 said
03:49 PM Feb 26, 2016
Glenn West wrote:
Weights don't concern us much. Check signature. It is one sweet ride too
Show off!
Glenn West said
04:27 PM Feb 26, 2016
515 hp too. Yes, showoff
Alie and Jims Carrilite said
07:24 PM Feb 26, 2016
Plus we can get a fresh hot bag of popcorn made while sitting in traffic ... Thanks to Microwave and inverter..
MarkS said
08:51 PM Feb 26, 2016
And a cold drink thanks to the refrigerator and a 21" HDTV. But no auto transmission here. 530 hp Cummins 15L 13 speed remote door locks and thermostatic environmental control HVAC. A toilet for convenience. Oh yeah, and it's paid for...
ahull said
11:37 PM Feb 26, 2016
MarkS wrote:
The GCVW of a class 8 is 80k pounds. Very few class 8 tractors will weigh 20k. A heavy one is about 18k.
Mark - You are correct that Class 8 GCVW is 80k pounds without permits but most semi's run 75k lbs or under. I did purposely select 70k for a couple of reasons that follow but the formula accounts for these adjustments and is still accurate see #5 below.
1.) Class 8 tractor's don't actually have a GVWR .... it is listed as >33k lbs and using steer & tandem axle limits it is 46k lbs. More axles could make this number higher for example concrete trucks with tag axles.
2.) Getting to 80k max is pretty difficult for an 18 wheeler without going over axle ratings so I also wanted the numbers to run more realistic.
3.) The formula takes into consideration the mass of the tow vehicle and class weight. The trailer weight is calculated in two different methods and averaged so changing the empty weight doesn't significantly impact the final results.
4.) Here are some resources I used to come up with these numbers but I don't have any personal experience with semi tractor trailer weights. I found tractors range 16k lbs to 21k lbs and empty trailers 12k to +20k with typical loads around 30k to 45k lbs.
Trailer Weight: 45,500 lbs (Theoretical 5th Wheel Max Weight)
GCVW: 63,500 lbs
Andy
ahull said
12:37 AM Feb 27, 2016
Cummins12V98 wrote:
Class 3 F350, F450 Pickup, 3500
Curb Weight: 8,500 lbs
GVWR: 14,000 lbs
Trailer Weight: 20,375 lbs
GCVW: 28,875 lbs
My RAM 3500 Cummins/Aisin 4.10 is SAE rated at 37,800# GCVWR you will never tow that combined weight with a 5th wheel and still be within the 9,750# rear axle rating..
I do tow a combined 32,500# and within front and rear axle ratings.
The 14K GVWR is just a number to keep truck in it's Class 3 rating and has nothing to with capabilities or limitations.
The RAM 3500 is in reality a class 4 truck.
Cummins12V98 - It appears that the manufacturers are saying here is a Class 3 truck but then with a wink are saying go ahead and treat your truck as a class 4 or 5 vehicle. A GCVW of 37,800 lbs of your 3500 is really in the Class 5 range but as you said .... you run out of axle before you get there.
With these Class 3 super trucks there really isn't a market for class 4 F450/4500 trucks. But on the other hand F350/3500/F450 Pickup are not class 4 or 5 trucks because the manufactures do limit the curb weight to keep it reasonably in the Class 3 range. There is somewhere around 1,000 to 2,000 lbs or more curb weight shaved off these trucks when compared to a Class 4 or 5 truck.
That mass has to come from somewhere....frame, brakes, axles, etc. The 2017 Ford Super Duty's are getting an aluminum body and using the weight reduction to beef up the frame.....box frame for the cab and maintaining the c-channel for the bed. What more can be done ..... remove the body all together ..... convertible or dune buggy Super Duty/Ram Truck!?
Opening up the GVWR opens up the ability to add more strength in the frame, axles, brakes etc. Not to mention a heavier tow vehicle will better control a heavier trailer. I would rather get the Cummins out of the 3500 and put it in the 5500 with a GVWR of 19,500 lbs. Beef up that frame, add the Dana M110 axle, exhaust brake, and plenty of axle rating.....that to me would be a great tow vehicle.
When does it stop for the Class 3 trucks......I think already the manufactures have put a body builder on the legs of a ballerina.
Andy
Bill and Linda said
08:17 AM Feb 27, 2016
Andy:
I would submit there is a market for true class IV trucks like the commercial F-450 and RAM 4500HD's. It's in the commercial world of up fits for "boom trucks," mobile tire repair operations, light duty dump trucks, etc., where rear axle and bed weight capacity is required as well as de-rated engines that allow severe service 365 and still operate reliably. These trucks are specifically designed - purpose built. So there is a specific requirement for true Class IV trucks and due to specific design a Class V is not necessary.
The 3500HD / F-450 / etc. class trucks still do not have the rear axles (actual useable capacity) to handle these commercial loads and the high HP and torque engines are actually more than is needed in almost all heavy duty commercial operation. And simply put, they won't hold up in those operations like the de-rated engines will. De-rating is a normal design method for longevity and reliability. The "super pickups" sole purpose is for the private market for which there are high profits and willing buyers. But they are not the same trucks by a long shot as the commercial trucks.
That said, the reason I choose to go to a 5500HD Class V truck was simple - I can't overload it with my trailer. When I ran the numbers the 4500HD RAM and F-450 (commercial) were marginal even with 12,000lb rear axles. So in for a penny in for a pound I went to class V. But the F-450 commercial truck has just shy of 3,000lbs more rear axle capacity than the F-450 pickup. That's a big number and for specific designs is the appropriate choice.
BTW, the reason Howard was able to add a hauler bed to his F-450 and still be within capacity is because his is a commercial F-450. Not the pickup. The older pictures you see of his truck with a pickup bed show the truck with an after-market bed that was added to the Cab and Chassis commercial F-450.
I do think all this information is quite useful to everyone making a truck selection. The real numbers, not the market brochures which at best are only half the facts.
So, IMO, there is a specific need for the true Class IV trucks. But with rear axle capacities of the Chevy, Ford and RAM "pickups" they just can't be treated having the same capability as the F-450/4500HD RAM commercial trucks, especially with high pin weights, etc. of our 5th wheels. There is a huge market for these commercial class IV trucks - just not in our RV universe.
ahull said
10:19 AM Mar 1, 2016
Bill – Another great discussion as usual……thanks. I agree with you that there is an application for Class 4 trucks when it comes to commercial applications and the true GVWR of 16,000 lbs or 16,500 lbs. is needed. For this forum targeted to full-timers hauling 5th wheel trailers IMO there is no reason to go with a Class 4 truck.
A class 3 truck with maxed axle ratings will be over the GVWR and going to a class 4 truck only gains you a few hundred pounds in GVWR. A class 4 truck with maxed axle ratings will be way over GVWR rating and only at a class 5 truck does the axle ratings and GVWR ratings start to even out.
Class 3 Truck 2015-2016 model years
F450 Pickup/F350/3500 (GVWR 14,000)
Front GAWR: 5,940 lbs (Ram is 6,000 lbs)
Rear GAWR: 9,650 lbs (Ram is 9,750 lbs) (F450 is 9,100 lbs)
Total : 15,590 lbs (Ram is 15,750)
Class 4 Truck
Commercial F450/4500 (GVWR 16,500)
Front GAWR: 7,000 lbs (Ram is 7,250 lbs)
Rear GAWR: 12,000 lbs
Total : 19,000 lbs (Ram is 19,250 lbs)
Class 5 Truck
F550/5500 (GVWR 19,500)
Front GAWR: 7,000 lbs (Ram is 7,250 lbs)
Rear GAWR: 14,706 lbs (Ram is 13,500 lbs)
Total : 21,706 lbs (Ram is 20,750 lbs)
De-tuning the engine will aid in reliability and longevity but this is my point. The class 4 & 5 trucks have stronger frames, axles, springs, & brakes yet a de-tuned engine without an exhaust brake (Cummins has an exhaust brake) this seems backwards to me. The engine power & exhaust brake are the selling points of the class 3 truck and because it has more power it is more capable in hauling a heavier trailer. The difference of going up a steep grade at 30 mph vs. highway speeds and going down a steep grade with smoking brakes/blown engine vs. having an exhaust brake assist.
I can see Ford not having the history to know if the engine/transmission is capable of handling the power over time in commercial applications but the Cummins? The 5.9 Cummins was designed for 400 hp & 1000 ft lbs of torque in marine applications and was always detuned for Ram Heavy Duty trucks because the transmission was not designed to handle that power. Now we have a 6.7 that is stronger than the 5.9 and an AISIN transmission….what gives?
If I could have purchased a commercial Class 4 F450/F550 or 4500/5500 with the full power & exhaust brake of the class 3 engines I would have done so not only for the extra axle rating but the overall improved package frame, brakes, springs, GVWR etc. For me personally that market was completely closed because of the de-tuned engine. Howard just added an exhaust brake to his commercial Class 4 F450 now that the engine is out of warranty and loves it. For me (hauling a trailer <20k lbs) the choice was to go with the class 3 F450 Pickup rear axle weight rating of 9,100 lbs. The class 3 F450 Pickup has the axles and brakes from the commercial class 4 F450 Cab & Chassis but not the rear axle weight rating of 12,000lbs.. The total package is more important to me then a big engine or big axle weight rating.
The true class 4 & 5 medium duty truck market for the big 3 is lacking (less so for RAM but still lacking) and the light duty class 3 trucks are over marketed with overly powerful engines and towing numbers that don’t add up.
Andy
-- Edited by ahull on Wednesday 2nd of March 2016 06:48:11 AM
-- Edited by ahull on Wednesday 2nd of March 2016 07:26:56 AM
Bill and Linda said
12:42 PM Mar 1, 2016
Andy,
I do enjoy your posts but I do recommend you clarify which F-450 your referring to each time. Many see F-450, with the ratings you listed, and mistakenly think that's the F-450 pickup. Those numbers are for the commercial F-450. But the pickup only has a 9,100lb RAWR and a 14,000lb GVWR. This is where many are mistaken when they read posts or see "Howard has an F-450." True, but "which F-450?"
IMO, the F-450 pickup should have a badge different from the F-450 commercial truck. Have no idea what that would be but I know the marketing people wouldn't like it.
Yes, Howard did put an exhaust brake on his commercial F-450. I, and others, had recommended that addition for sometime and I'm glad the results are as good as I expected. His experience is one reason why I have encouraged truck buyers to consider an exhaust brake for any truck used for towing. Either OEM or after market. But one way or another I consider it to be a "must have" item and is one reason I chose the RAM5500HD as opposed to the F-550 which does not have an OEM exhaust brake. "Tow-haul" is not the same as an exhaust brake. Helpful, yes. But not in the same class of electiveness for braking. Howard's experience can testify to this fact, IMO.
Not knocking a product or brand. Ratings and equipment are what they are and as your doing a good job of getting down into the weedsI thought I would slog along with you.
Your comments about power and the Cummins are quite true. I agree. I too wish it (and the Ford for that matter) wasn't detuned and with the Aisin "-69" transmission it would be just fine as it is in the RAM 3500HD pickup. But the fact is most commercial operations don't want all that HP. Ford's detuning is "worse" (i.e. lower HP and torque) than the RAM's. So there you go. It is what it is.
I will note the Cummins in the commercial trucks with the Aisin have a completely different torque curve made for towing. (It's also different if you get a manual transmission BTW.) Torque ramps to 750 ft. lbs. by ~1,400 RPM and holds that flat @ 750 till around 2,500 when HP "takes over." That's a nice range for towing heavy loads. The HP curve increase matches the torque top out point and continues on to just about 3,000 RPM. So some thought has gone into the re-calibrations for their max tow package which includes additional heat absorption elements, etc.
But all that said, other than an HDT, if you have a heavy trailer with a 5,000lb pin, plus hauler bed, aux fuel and cargo you have little choice but go true MDT or you will seriously overload a rating.
All good discussion.
Bill
ahull said
07:25 AM Mar 2, 2016
Bill,
Very confusing with the class 3 F450 pickup vs the commercial class 4 F450 .... I did make some clarifications to try to be more clear and hopefully that helps. I blame it on Ford....what were they thinking!
Great information on the Cummins torque vs. horsepower remapping.
Bill and Linda wrote:
Andy,
..........
Yes, Howard did put an exhaust brake on his commercial F-450. I, and others, had recommended that addition for sometime and I'm glad the results are as good as I expected. His experience is one reason why I have encouraged truck buyers to consider an exhaust brake for any truck used for towing. Either OEM or after market. But one way or another I consider it to be a "must have" item and is one reason I chose the RAM5500HD as opposed to the F-550 which does not have an OEM exhaust brake. "Tow-haul" is not the same as an exhaust brake. Helpful, yes. But not in the same class of electiveness for braking. Howard's experience can testify to this fact, IMO.
...........
Bill
Also want to add for those that don't know what Bill is referencing .....Howard a few years ago blew up the engine in his commercial F450 truck coming down a steep mountain hill. His commercial F450 came with tow/haul mode but did not come from the factory with an exhaust brake. In Howard's case tow/haul mode was not strong enough to slow his rig, tow/haul mode didn't shift to a higher gear to decrease the rpms and the engine decided to let loose.
Here is a list of truck classes and calculated trailer weights based on these formulas
Trailer Weight = ((Curb Weight * 2.5)+(GVW-Curb Weight+GVW))/2
GCVW = Curb Weight + Trailer Weight
These weights are extrapolated from a Class 8 semi and signify estimated potential design limits for each class of truck. These numbers are not to replace manufacturers towing capacities but were generated to give a rough idea of what each class of truck is capable of hauling for 5th wheel weights. Curb weights are estimates based on 4x4 crew cab trucks and GVWR are DOT limits.
Couple interesting observations are that manufactures ratings for class 1 & 2a are within these calculated numbers. Class 2b & 3 manufacture ratings are close to or exceed these numbers.
Especially for Ford & Ram, Class 4 & 5 trucks would benefit from the Class 2b & 3 more powerful engines and exhaust brakes to create future more capable towing vehicles.
Class 1 Tacoma, Colorado
Curb Weight: 3,900 lbs
GVWR: 6,000 lbs
Trailer Weight: 8,925 lbs
GCVW: 12,825 lbs
Class 2a F150 1500
Curb Weight: 5,000 lbs
GVWR: 8,500 lbs
Trailer Weight: 12,250 lbs
GCVW: 17,250 lbs
Class 2b F250 2500
Curb Weight: 7,500 lbs
GVWR: 10,000 lbs
Trailer Weight: 15,625 lbs
GCVW: 23,125 lbs
Class 3 F350, F450 Pickup, 3500
Curb Weight: 8,500 lbs
GVWR: 14,000 lbs
Trailer Weight: 20,375 lbs
GCVW: 28,875 lbs
Class 4 F450, 4500
Curb Weight: 9,500 lbs
GVWR: 16,000 lbs
Trailer Weight: 23,125 lbs
GCVW: 32,625 lbs
Class 5 F550, 5500
Curb Weight: 10,500 lbs
GVWR: 19,500 lbs
Trailer Weight: 27,375 lbs
GCVW: 37,875 lbs
Class 6 F650, C6500
Curb Weight: 12,500 lbs
GVWR: 26,000 lbs
Trailer Weight: 35,375 lbs
GCVW: 47,875 lbs
Class 7 F750, C7500, Freightliner
Curb Weight: 15,000 lbs
GVWR: 33,000 lbs
Trailer Weight: 44,250 lbs
GCVW: 59,250 lbs
Class 8 C8500, Semi Tractor
Curb Weight: 20,000 lbs
GVWR: >33,000 lbs
Trailer Weight: 50,000 lbs
GCVW: 70,000 lbs
-- Edited by ahull on Wednesday 2nd of March 2016 10:05:04 AM
Curb Weight: 8,319 lbs
GVWR: 14,000 lbs
Trailer Weight: 30,310 lbs
GCVW: 39,100 lbs
The listing of ratings is good and does a nice job of showing there are clear differences between class III and class IV trucks – regardless of the badge on the side.
For those doing research and noting the above listing, where one runs into trouble with trailer tow ratings is not what the truck can tow including meeting the SAE J2807 standard, it is also what the truck’s rear axle can carry. This is where all the “I can tow this much” numbers fail as the defining point for truck selection.
The class III trucks, the F-450 pickup and the RAM 3500HD lack the rear axle capacity for many big 5ers due to the RV 5th wheel’s pin weight especially with aux fuel tanks and the sometime required hauler bed, not to mention tools and generators, etc..
The towing demonstrations and certifications are done with gooseneck trailers with pin weights at the bottom end (15% of the trailer weight) of the allowable pin weight and naturally without one pound of extra weight in the truck. One will never be able to find a 5th wheel RV that weighs, for example 26,000lbs and a pin weight of 3,900lbs, loaded for travel. Or a 30,000lb 5er with a pin weight of 4,500lbs.
At the top end, these towing numbers for 5th wheel RV’s in the real world are simply not achievable if one wants to stay within all the ratings of the tow vehicle.
As has been said about many of the newer Class III trucks, “They can tow it, but they can’t carry it.”
Do consider all the ratings when selecting a tow vehicle.
Thanks, Andy for the listing.
Curb Weight: 8,500 lbs
GVWR: 14,000 lbs
Trailer Weight: 20,375 lbs
GCVW: 28,875 lbs
My RAM 3500 Cummins/Aisin 4.10 is SAE rated at 37,800# GCVWR you will never tow that combined weight with a 5th wheel and still be within the 9,750# rear axle rating..
I do tow a combined 32,500# and within front and rear axle ratings.
The 14K GVWR is just a number to keep truck in it's Class 3 rating and has nothing to with capabilities or limitations.
The RAM 3500 is in reality a class 4 truck.
Show off!
Plus we can get a fresh hot bag of popcorn made while sitting in traffic
... Thanks to Microwave and inverter..
Mark - You are correct that Class 8 GCVW is 80k pounds without permits but most semi's run 75k lbs or under. I did purposely select 70k for a couple of reasons that follow but the formula accounts for these adjustments and is still accurate see #5 below.
1.) Class 8 tractor's don't actually have a GVWR .... it is listed as >33k lbs and using steer & tandem axle limits it is 46k lbs. More axles could make this number higher for example concrete trucks with tag axles.
2.) Getting to 80k max is pretty difficult for an 18 wheeler without going over axle ratings so I also wanted the numbers to run more realistic.
3.) The formula takes into consideration the mass of the tow vehicle and class weight. The trailer weight is calculated in two different methods and averaged so changing the empty weight doesn't significantly impact the final results.
4.) Here are some resources I used to come up with these numbers but I don't have any personal experience with semi tractor trailer weights. I found tractors range 16k lbs to 21k lbs and empty trailers 12k to +20k with typical loads around 30k to 45k lbs.
https://www.celadontrucking.com/cms400min/celadon2013/pdfs/combined-weight-chart.pdf
http://www.thetruckersreport.com/facts-about-trucks/
http://ops.fhwa.dot.gov/Freight/sw/overview/index.htm
http://www.lifeasatrucker.com/weight-distribution.html
5.) Using Class 8 tandem axle ratings limits
Steer = 12,000 lbs
Tractor tandem = 34,000 lbs
Trailer Tandem = 34,000 lbs
Using the above axle weight limits, curb weight of 18,000 lbs, and the same formula .... seems right.
Class 8 C8500, Semi Tractor (Tandem axle Semi)
Curb Weight: 18,000 lbs
GVWR: 46,000 lbs (Steer + Tandem -> 12,000 + 34,000)
Trailer Weight: 59,500 lbs
GCVW: 77,500 lbs
6.) Using Class 8 single axle ratings limits. HDT are usually converted to singles to class them as an RV.....here are those numbers.
Steer = 12,000 lbs
Tractor Single = 20,000 lbs
Using the above axle weight limits, curb weight of 18,000 lbs, and the same formula.
Class 8 HDT Full-Timer Conversion (Single axle Semi)
Curb Weight: 18,000 lbs
GVWR: 32,000 lbs (Steer + Rear -> 12,000 + 20,000)
Trailer Weight: 45,500 lbs (Theoretical 5th Wheel Max Weight)
GCVW: 63,500 lbs
Andy
Cummins12V98 - It appears that the manufacturers are saying here is a Class 3 truck but then with a wink are saying go ahead and treat your truck as a class 4 or 5 vehicle. A GCVW of 37,800 lbs of your 3500 is really in the Class 5 range but as you said .... you run out of axle before you get there.
With these Class 3 super trucks there really isn't a market for class 4 F450/4500 trucks. But on the other hand F350/3500/F450 Pickup are not class 4 or 5 trucks because the manufactures do limit the curb weight to keep it reasonably in the Class 3 range. There is somewhere around 1,000 to 2,000 lbs or more curb weight shaved off these trucks when compared to a Class 4 or 5 truck.
That mass has to come from somewhere....frame, brakes, axles, etc. The 2017 Ford Super Duty's are getting an aluminum body and using the weight reduction to beef up the frame.....box frame for the cab and maintaining the c-channel for the bed. What more can be done ..... remove the body all together ..... convertible or dune buggy Super Duty/Ram Truck!?
Opening up the GVWR opens up the ability to add more strength in the frame, axles, brakes etc. Not to mention a heavier tow vehicle will better control a heavier trailer. I would rather get the Cummins out of the 3500 and put it in the 5500 with a GVWR of 19,500 lbs. Beef up that frame, add the Dana M110 axle, exhaust brake, and plenty of axle rating.....that to me would be a great tow vehicle.
When does it stop for the Class 3 trucks......I think already the manufactures have put a body builder on the legs of a ballerina.
Andy
Andy:
I would submit there is a market for true class IV trucks like the commercial F-450 and RAM 4500HD's. It's in the commercial world of up fits for "boom trucks," mobile tire repair operations, light duty dump trucks, etc., where rear axle and bed weight capacity is required as well as de-rated engines that allow severe service 365 and still operate reliably. These trucks are specifically designed - purpose built. So there is a specific requirement for true Class IV trucks and due to specific design a Class V is not necessary.
The 3500HD / F-450 / etc. class trucks still do not have the rear axles (actual useable capacity) to handle these commercial loads and the high HP and torque engines are actually more than is needed in almost all heavy duty commercial operation. And simply put, they won't hold up in those operations like the de-rated engines will. De-rating is a normal design method for longevity and reliability. The "super pickups" sole purpose is for the private market for which there are high profits and willing buyers. But they are not the same trucks by a long shot as the commercial trucks.
That said, the reason I choose to go to a 5500HD Class V truck was simple - I can't overload it with my trailer. When I ran the numbers the 4500HD RAM and F-450 (commercial) were marginal even with 12,000lb rear axles. So in for a penny in for a pound I went to class V. But the F-450 commercial truck has just shy of 3,000lbs more rear axle capacity than the F-450 pickup. That's a big number and for specific designs is the appropriate choice.
BTW, the reason Howard was able to add a hauler bed to his F-450 and still be within capacity is because his is a commercial F-450. Not the pickup. The older pictures you see of his truck with a pickup bed show the truck with an after-market bed that was added to the Cab and Chassis commercial F-450.
I do think all this information is quite useful to everyone making a truck selection. The real numbers, not the market brochures which at best are only half the facts.
So, IMO, there is a specific need for the true Class IV trucks. But with rear axle capacities of the Chevy, Ford and RAM "pickups" they just can't be treated having the same capability as the F-450/4500HD RAM commercial trucks, especially with high pin weights, etc. of our 5th wheels. There is a huge market for these commercial class IV trucks - just not in our RV universe.
Bill – Another great discussion as usual……thanks. I agree with you that there is an application for Class 4 trucks when it comes to commercial applications and the true GVWR of 16,000 lbs or 16,500 lbs. is needed. For this forum targeted to full-timers hauling 5th wheel trailers IMO there is no reason to go with a Class 4 truck.
A class 3 truck with maxed axle ratings will be over the GVWR and going to a class 4 truck only gains you a few hundred pounds in GVWR. A class 4 truck with maxed axle ratings will be way over GVWR rating and only at a class 5 truck does the axle ratings and GVWR ratings start to even out.
Class 3 Truck 2015-2016 model years
F450 Pickup/F350/3500 (GVWR 14,000)
Front GAWR: 5,940 lbs (Ram is 6,000 lbs)
Rear GAWR: 9,650 lbs (Ram is 9,750 lbs) (F450 is 9,100 lbs)
Total : 15,590 lbs (Ram is 15,750)
Class 4 Truck
Commercial F450/4500 (GVWR 16,500)
Front GAWR: 7,000 lbs (Ram is 7,250 lbs)
Rear GAWR: 12,000 lbs
Total : 19,000 lbs (Ram is 19,250 lbs)
Class 5 Truck
F550/5500 (GVWR 19,500)
Front GAWR: 7,000 lbs (Ram is 7,250 lbs)
Rear GAWR: 14,706 lbs (Ram is 13,500 lbs)
Total : 21,706 lbs (Ram is 20,750 lbs)
De-tuning the engine will aid in reliability and longevity but this is my point. The class 4 & 5 trucks have stronger frames, axles, springs, & brakes yet a de-tuned engine without an exhaust brake (Cummins has an exhaust brake) this seems backwards to me. The engine power & exhaust brake are the selling points of the class 3 truck and because it has more power it is more capable in hauling a heavier trailer. The difference of going up a steep grade at 30 mph vs. highway speeds and going down a steep grade with smoking brakes/blown engine vs. having an exhaust brake assist.
I can see Ford not having the history to know if the engine/transmission is capable of handling the power over time in commercial applications but the Cummins? The 5.9 Cummins was designed for 400 hp & 1000 ft lbs of torque in marine applications and was always detuned for Ram Heavy Duty trucks because the transmission was not designed to handle that power. Now we have a 6.7 that is stronger than the 5.9 and an AISIN transmission….what gives?
If I could have purchased a commercial Class 4 F450/F550 or 4500/5500 with the full power & exhaust brake of the class 3 engines I would have done so not only for the extra axle rating but the overall improved package frame, brakes, springs, GVWR etc. For me personally that market was completely closed because of the de-tuned engine. Howard just added an exhaust brake to his commercial Class 4 F450 now that the engine is out of warranty and loves it. For me (hauling a trailer <20k lbs) the choice was to go with the class 3 F450 Pickup rear axle weight rating of 9,100 lbs. The class 3 F450 Pickup has the axles and brakes from the commercial class 4 F450 Cab & Chassis but not the rear axle weight rating of 12,000lbs.. The total package is more important to me then a big engine or big axle weight rating.
The true class 4 & 5 medium duty truck market for the big 3 is lacking (less so for RAM but still lacking) and the light duty class 3 trucks are over marketed with overly powerful engines and towing numbers that don’t add up.
Andy
-- Edited by ahull on Wednesday 2nd of March 2016 06:48:11 AM
-- Edited by ahull on Wednesday 2nd of March 2016 07:26:56 AM
Andy,
I do enjoy your posts but I do recommend you clarify which F-450 your referring to each time. Many see F-450, with the ratings you listed, and mistakenly think that's the F-450 pickup. Those numbers are for the commercial F-450. But the pickup only has a 9,100lb RAWR and a 14,000lb GVWR. This is where many are mistaken when they read posts or see "Howard has an F-450." True, but "which F-450?"
IMO, the F-450 pickup should have a badge different from the F-450 commercial truck. Have no idea what that would be but I know the marketing people wouldn't like it.
Yes, Howard did put an exhaust brake on his commercial F-450. I, and others, had recommended that addition for sometime and I'm glad the results are as good as I expected. His experience is one reason why I have encouraged truck buyers to consider an exhaust brake for any truck used for towing. Either OEM or after market. But one way or another I consider it to be a "must have" item and is one reason I chose the RAM5500HD as opposed to the F-550 which does not have an OEM exhaust brake. "Tow-haul" is not the same as an exhaust brake. Helpful, yes. But not in the same class of electiveness for braking. Howard's experience can testify to this fact, IMO.
Not knocking a product or brand. Ratings and equipment are what they are and as your doing a good job of getting down into the weedsI thought I would slog along with you.
Your comments about power and the Cummins are quite true. I agree. I too wish it (and the Ford for that matter) wasn't detuned and with the Aisin "-69" transmission it would be just fine as it is in the RAM 3500HD pickup. But the fact is most commercial operations don't want all that HP. Ford's detuning is "worse" (i.e. lower HP and torque) than the RAM's. So there you go. It is what it is.
I will note the Cummins in the commercial trucks with the Aisin have a completely different torque curve made for towing. (It's also different if you get a manual transmission BTW.) Torque ramps to 750 ft. lbs. by ~1,400 RPM and holds that flat @ 750 till around 2,500 when HP "takes over." That's a nice range for towing heavy loads. The HP curve increase matches the torque top out point and continues on to just about 3,000 RPM. So some thought has gone into the re-calibrations for their max tow package which includes additional heat absorption elements, etc.
But all that said, other than an HDT, if you have a heavy trailer with a 5,000lb pin, plus hauler bed, aux fuel and cargo you have little choice but go true MDT or you will seriously overload a rating.
All good discussion.
Bill
Bill,
Very confusing with the class 3 F450 pickup vs the commercial class 4 F450 .... I did make some clarifications to try to be more clear and hopefully that helps. I blame it on Ford....what were they thinking!
Great information on the Cummins torque vs. horsepower remapping.
Also want to add for those that don't know what Bill is referencing .....Howard a few years ago blew up the engine in his commercial F450 truck coming down a steep mountain hill. His commercial F450 came with tow/haul mode but did not come from the factory with an exhaust brake. In Howard's case tow/haul mode was not strong enough to slow his rig, tow/haul mode didn't shift to a higher gear to decrease the rpms and the engine decided to let loose.
Andy