Looking for a truck to haul the 5er. Many have duallys, are they really better than regular wheels? We know nothing about this kind of stuff. Took months to pick out the rig we wanted. Now what to buy to pull it. We're going with the Keystone Avalanche. Any help appreciated!!!
Terry and Jo said
08:40 PM Mar 30, 2015
Duallys give at least two advantages, especially with 36-foot and longer trailers. They give a lot more stability in turns and maneuvering and should one rear tire go low in air or have a blowout, one still has the extra tire to do the job while traveling to a service center at a slower speed to avoid overheating.
Terry
Cummins12V98 said
03:15 AM Mar 31, 2015
Towing with a Dually is a very relaxing experience. Weather is hardly noticed. Any of the newer Diesel Dually's will serve you well.
PD CFK said
05:28 AM Mar 31, 2015
Dually just seems safer. We love our Dually! pk
Dog Folks said
06:44 AM Mar 31, 2015
Drive one while towing and you will be a fan. I never was a fan of dual wheels until then.
Won't have a tow vehicle without them now.
Cowdog353 said
06:45 AM Mar 31, 2015
Stability! That's it in a word.
I really like the duals vs the single wheel.
Jim
Bill and Linda said
10:14 AM Mar 31, 2015
Gary and Linda wrote:
Looking for a truck to haul the 5er. Many have duallys, are they really better than regular wheels?
Yes! This is a long discussion and a lot of facts to back up that statement of "yes;" but unless the 5er weighs less than something like 14,000lbs, get a dually for all the reasons indicated and a lot more. I'd have a dually to pull a 5er regardless due to the increased stability not to mention safety.
Bill
Neil and Connie said
02:40 PM Apr 1, 2015
Dualley yes. Hauler bed as well if your weights allow for one as Schreiber than the pickup bed. Get more truck then you think you need.
-- Edited by Neil and Connie on Wednesday 1st of April 2015 02:40:48 PM
The Bear II said
08:58 AM Apr 2, 2015
I have towed the same 15000 lb 5th wheel with 2 single rear wheel trucks and 2 duallies....
The duallies feel more stable when towing, panic braking, tight maneuvering and especially on curvy mountain roads.
I would not go back to towing with a single rear wheel truck.
trimixdiving said
07:06 PM Apr 2, 2015
I agree. I have towed with both and the dually is much better. It just feels more substantial and stable. It is more difficult to find parking and drive thru windows takes a little practice. The only real downside is driving on slushy or roads narrowed by snow banks.
VanMar said
10:49 AM Apr 4, 2015
I have a personal experience with the flat-tire-in-the-rain scenario. DRWs made the difference between changing it on the side of the road or at a rest stop.
I've never towed a fifth wheel with an SRW but after belonging to this forum for a couple of years, I decided to listen to the seasoned RVers here and get a DRW...glad I did.
Since joining this forum almost three years ago, I became more aware of the fivers I would meet on the highway. This is only what I observed, but it looks like the majority are pulled by SRWs, either 3/4 or one ton. Most of them are probably doing it trouble free, too. We will always have a dually.
Vance
Bill and Linda said
02:17 PM Apr 4, 2015
Dual Wheel safety story number whatever -
Had a rock cut the inside tire of the dually coming down I-17 into Phoenix with the fiver connected.Stopped at the Sunset Point rest stop.Always check the tires and lugs when we stop – found the inner totally flat.Even though the now single outer tire was quite overloaded I never noticed a problem coming down the mountain.Changed the tire and went on. A non-event.
Duals are a very good thing and totally worth the extra expense and very small inconvenience some describe even with a modest size fiver.
RodandVal said
08:19 AM Apr 25, 2015
I am a newbie to this forum. We will be semi full timing next year. I presently have a 2014 F250 diesel and was not really wanting to upgrade to a dually to tow the 5th wheel we are wanting to buy. I have been searching and searching trying to find an answer to my dilemma. I think I have found it in this: http://www.automatedsafetyhitch.com/. This works perfectly I think! For about 11 thousand dollars I will have a hitch that I can remove anytime and nothing will be in the bed of my pickup. We can still use the F-250 or even something smaller if we desired and still tow a 16K or 18K trailer! And more safely than a dually I might add. Having the 5th on its own tow axle rated at 6K or the upgrade to 8K I think is just fantastic! Check this out folks. This I am sure is what I will be using!
el Rojo and Pam said
08:38 AM Apr 25, 2015
I believe this would be considered a double tow, not legal in every state.
RodandVal said
09:26 AM Apr 25, 2015
Yes it is legal in every state! Check out all the website. The inventor states that it does not require a license. This attaches via 3 points onto a special receiver hitch you put on in place of your factory receiver. It becomes an integral part of your tow vehicle. Since it is an attachment it is legal.
-- Edited by RodandVal on Saturday 25th of April 2015 09:27:43 AM
-- Edited by RodandVal on Saturday 25th of April 2015 09:29:37 AM
-- Edited by RodandVal on Saturday 25th of April 2015 09:34:06 AM
BiggarView said
10:36 AM Apr 25, 2015
No, you won't be overloading the truck axles, but, you might find the F250 challenged by the total weight it would be towing if you are looking at 16K-18K for the trailer plus the device to hook it up to. Remember you'll be pulling/towing it as well.
Brian
RodandVal said
12:41 PM Apr 25, 2015
Yes, I most likely will be exceeding the towing capacity according to Ford specs. However, I will NOT be overloaded. I have used my F250 on the farm pulling 40,000+ wagons of grain to town. Albeit in low range and only 25 to 30 miles an hour with the wagons having full brakes and lighting. I know the capacity of my truck for towing and Ford really under rates these babies! Having an additional axle rated at 6000 lbs with large disc brakes will definitely increase my towing capacity giving me 10 wheels with brakes. I would much rather go this route than be the person who has a large 5th wheel sitting in his pickup bed knowing full well he has exceeded both his vehicles weight carrying capacity plus its towing capacity. And there are many many many of these on the roads.
RodandVal said
12:56 PM Apr 25, 2015
For those persons who think that driving a dually with a flat tire while still carrying the fiver is fine to get to a repair shop just remember this: You have compromised the integrity of the good tire by exceeding its rated load capacity and now to be safe you must replace both tires otherwise you risk a blowout sometime in the future while driving at highway speeds.
bjoyce said
01:38 PM Apr 25, 2015
Believe it or not, there are mountains in many states. We have taken a 10% grade in California and 8% in North Carolina. Going between Cloudcroft NM and Alamogordo NM is 16 miles of 6% grade. I would not recommend these roads with an overloaded vehicle.
BiggarView said
02:20 PM Apr 25, 2015
RodandVal, any time you exceed the CGVWR of the truck, you are asking for trouble. While the ASHS setup may make it safer to tow certain 5ers up to the trucks rated tow capacity compared to a more tradional fiver in the bed arrangement, if your truck is rated to tow 15K, trying to tow 1600lbs for the ASHS and 16K-18K for a trailer is bound to break something sooner rather than later, or put you in a situation you may not be able to get out of. Why push your luck when your life may be on the line or that of others.
Still, you seem to have already made up your mind for your particular situation. I'd caution you to reconsider such a plan for the details you have suggested.
I noticed in one of the videos from the ASH website that the truck was scrubbing large quantities of rubber while manuevering a larger trailer in a tight backing turn. I can't imagine that being good for the tire sidewalls or treadlife. Bad enough to have some scrubbing on the trailer why add the truck tires to the equation?
Bill's right about steep grades. Too heavy a trailer will have the tail wagging the dog in an emergency.
40k+ grain carts from farm to town had to be relatively short flat runs, even then, most certainly a strain on mechanicals for you truck.
Why would Ford (or anybody for that matter) underate their trucks on purpose? Surely they have done their own tow testing and would assign the highest competetive rating they could and avoid lawsuits by not overrating them.
While you can certainly accomplish the things you say, your comments sound more like bravado and ignore the inherent risks of overtaxing the tow vehicle or its components.
Again, the ASHS seems like an valid alternative for towing 5ers upto the rated weight allowed for the truck involved, but not an excuse to exceed it in any application.
JMHO, Brian
-- Edited by biggaRView on Sunday 26th of April 2015 06:02:10 AM
RodandVal said
02:23 PM Apr 25, 2015
I have done mountains many times towing bumper pulls AKA Travel Trailers. Presently have a 2015 Blackstone 280RKSB 34 ft. bumper pull. A premium travel trailer but alas the manufacturers don't seem to want to put as heavy a frame under them as they do 5th wheels so we have to step up 5th wheels to get the amount of slides and options we want as full timers. When I got this trailer last summer it was to last us several years but unbeknownst to me my shoulder was about to give out and now needing to have a reverse shoulder replacement I am giving up and retiring.
So doing mountains will definitely not be a problem when using the fiver on the Automated Safety Hitch! As I stated earlier I will be gaining an additional pair of disc brakes integrated into the system. With the diesel having engine braking and the tow category on the transmission there is plenty of braking in addition to the brakes!
RodandVal said
02:31 PM Apr 25, 2015
Brian I watched all the videos several times and never saw the tire scrubbing you describe. Have you ever watched the tires on a tandem axle trailer which includes all fivers and most tt as the trailer is turning either going forward or backing? They scrub extremely hard and I mean EXTREMELY hard. Does this mean that those trailers should be considered unsafe? This machine is designed to steer while making sharp forward turns. Backing scrubbing will be only minimal.
BiggarView said
02:41 PM Apr 25, 2015
I'm not suggesting it (tirescrubbing) was unsafe, only that it would reduce tire life through abuse. Having worked in an intermodal railyard for many years I have seen many examples of such abuse, and tire failures were and are a common occurance from tight turning of trailers at such facilities. I suspect RVs (TV and trailer setups) would not be subject to such extreme wear and tear as that but nonetheless, tire abuse is tire abuse any way you cause it to happen.
-- Edited by biggaRView on Saturday 25th of April 2015 02:47:16 PM
Terry and Jo said
02:45 PM Apr 25, 2015
This system has been "touted" by a few people here on the forums before. However, none of them had ever actually used one. The truck manufacturers list weight capacities on trucks for a reason, and to exceed the GCVW of the truck is asking for trouble. Also, keep in mind that in addition to the weight of the trailer, one would also be adding the weight of the AHS to the weight that the truck would be pulling. So, if the trailer is already putting your F250 overweight, the AHS would just be adding to it.
Personally, in all the RV's I've seen over the years, I've never seen one with the AHS attached to it.
As a former professional truck driver, I would never want to overload a truck. I think you would be better off to take the money for the AHS and trade up to a heavier, more capable truck.
As for hauling heavy loads on the farm, I've done that as well. I seriously doubt you'd want to travel with an RV at 25 to 30 mph, and I'm sure the other drivers on the road wouldn't appreciate you doing that either.
Terry
-- Edited by Terry and Jo on Saturday 25th of April 2015 02:46:20 PM
RodandVal said
03:01 PM Apr 25, 2015
I agree with you Terry about overloading the truck. But you must realize this system increases the towing capacity of the truck just like the 5th wheel hitch tractor -trailer hauling companies use to tow in tandem. Are their tractors rated from the factory to be pulling the extra load? No but they can since the trailer adds the additional tires for the extra load and braking capabilities needed.
You state that you have never seen one of these in use. They have only been in production for a few years. Advertising the use of these seems to be a short coming of the company, most likely the reason they are in only limited use. The inventor has a long history of making safety improvements in the aeronautical industry and wants to contribute to the safety of towing trailers. I think this meets all the necessary requirements and also can save a person the unnecessary expense of having to purchase a HDT truck.
BiggarView said
03:16 PM Apr 25, 2015
Terry's right.... engines, trannies, chassis, drivetrains are designed to tow a certain weight and exceeding it through trickery (I would be tempted to say even ASH would not tell you to exceed truck MFR tow ratings) is asking for mechanical trouble to say the least.
-- Edited by biggaRView on Saturday 25th of April 2015 03:57:20 PM
RodandVal said
03:54 PM Apr 25, 2015
Do as you wish Brian. The inventor touts the idea he wishes to help with towing safety. Have you really watched all the videos, including the interview with him? The man is very sincere and only uses the best American steel with full welds, no spot welds. The units come with a 3 year warranty. How many 5th's or TT come with a 3 year warranty?
-- Edited by RodandVal on Saturday 25th of April 2015 04:13:23 PM
Howard said
04:09 PM Apr 25, 2015
Well, this conversation has gotten off-topic. But I'll throw in my two cents on both the dually and the automated safety hitch.
Yes, on a dually for full-timers due to stability and extra capacity of the rear axle and extra stopping capability of four tires as opposed to two. Understanding the multiple purposes of a truck for those that aren't full-timers, I'm not quite as adamant as long as the combination is safely driven for short periods and not on steep downgrades. Typically, SRW trucks are overloaded on their rear axle and their rear tires when towing something as heavy as a typical full-timer fifth wheel. Having weighed RVs for three years, it was quite common for SRW trucks to be overloaded.
As for the automated safety hitch, it does help with the overloaded SRW issue, but it creates more practical problems for the full-timer. I HAVE had one demonstrated for me and I was not impressed. I ran the guy doing the demo through all kinds of practical situations in an "uncontrolled" environment. Afterward, I talked to the designer of the product at length about what I witnessed. I videoed the demonstration and it wasn't pretty. It caused ruts and skid marks in tight turns and the demonstrator had trouble hitching and unhitching from it. It was the one time that I chose NOT to post a review, photos, and the videos because it would have had such a negative effect on the guy's business (I just left it that I was unimpressed and couldn't recommend it). Of course, he blamed everything on the person doing the demo for not demonstrating it properly (the guy he specifically sent to me).
In addition to creating extra length on the vehicle combination, it creates a hassle in leveling the RV front to back, it does NOT make parking in a campsite easier, it creates an extra level of service and maintenance, and it adds the inconvenience of what to do with it once you are parked and need to get it out of the way (many campsites won't accommodate it AND the truck).
It may make towing safer from a pure engineering standpoint (and I'm not even sure about that), but my fear is it will have the opposite effect and encourage people without enough truck to tow trailers much larger than they should be towing. As a former attorney, I can tell you that I'd be all over that in a lawsuit.
"Sir, what was your incentive to use Automated Safety Hitch in your trailer towing configuration? Answer: 'They told me I could tow a bigger trailer than my truck's owners manual said I could - I wouldn't have to go out and buy a bigger truck.' Thank you. No further questions."
There are many reasons this product has not caught on in the RV world, not the least of which is that potential liability issue. He has offered numerous incentives and commissions to people like us to help promote the product. I think it is far more suited to the horse industry and to some commercial applications, but I wouldn't have one as a full-time RVer and no amount of aeronautical engineering speak would convince me otherwise. Just my not-so-humble opinion on this one.
RodandVal said
04:20 PM Apr 25, 2015
I thank you Howard for your candid thoughts. It will make me rethink the idea of purchasing. The only remark you made that I have issue with is the problem of placement of the unit after unhooking at the park. Why could it not just remain under the front of the 5th? Other than that I really do thank you. His videos made it look very impressive and a viable solution for me. Thanks again
Howard said
09:10 PM Apr 25, 2015
RodandVal,
If you disconnect the automated safety hitch and push it up under the fifth wheel, then it's in the way and you can't access your front compartments. If you leave it hooked up to the fifth wheel, you can see that it will stick out two or three feet in the front, and often that is just enough to keep you from being able to park your truck in a campsite. Often, in order to get your truck to fit in a campsite, you have to back the tailgate right up to the kingpin. It's not a huge deal, but it will be an issue from time to time.
Also, if you leave it hitched up, how do you level front to back if the front needs to go up or down several inches? If you need to go up very far, you'll have to disconnect it. If you need to go down, you have to either disconnect and move it or deflate the tires.
I too thought this product was intriguing, but having seen it in person and having considered some of the practical aspects of using it, and having been contacted multiple times under the premise of "This product will allow people to tow bigger trailers safely with lesser trucks", I just can't get behind it. Now you may buy one and love it, but we won't be recommending this option for our RVing friends.
RodandVal said
06:12 AM Apr 26, 2015
The better half and I have talked it over. The only way I can satisfy myself either way is to make a trip to Texas and have a hands on experience. Then I will know if I want to pursue it any farther or let it stay at the factory.
cheryls-other-half said
08:00 AM Apr 27, 2015
Mitch Chimes in:
RodandVal wrote:
The better half and I have talked it over. The only way I can satisfy myself either way is to make a trip to Texas and have a hands on experience. Then I will know if I want to pursue it any farther or let it stay at the factory.
As someone to whom a computer is much easier to diagnose and maintain then a car/Truck/Dually, and
who has NEVER ever ever changed a tire, or oil in anything that has a motor: (note those are big boots!)
I can tell you that in 8 months of being full-time on the road that:
I can tell you I've see WAY too many Ford 150's/250's (and even F350's) pulling rigs that are WAY too heavy for them.
I can say that buying TOO much truck instead of too LITTLE truck is a much better idea.
Most people using a F-250 are NOT going to be happy in the long run.
The idea of buying a trailer and THEN buying the truck is ok, but don't think that using your current truck will work.
I am SO so Grateful that my current F-550 with a hauler body can carry my trailer and then some, with capacity to spare.
(at the Spring Educational rally), and just had dinner with someone with a F-450 who (and I quote anonymously)
"I am so jealous of your F-550. I wish my truck wasn't so underpowered"
Just remember. As the original question was asked, is a Dually a must?
my answer:
"Depends on
what you are going to tow
how heavy a load you are going to tow
how long you are going to tow it,
whether you will ever be on the road, or just occasionally changing campgrounds.
Do you want the security of the extra stability/safety they offer"
My bottom line advice? BUY Too much truck, you WON'T be sorry!
(the proof? I wish I had a HDT that could I could load a smart-car on-to.. That's more then I have!)
hmmm
Jack Mayer said
11:50 AM Apr 27, 2015
I recently had an opportunity to do some in-person observation of the Automated Safety hitch that Howard refers to, including riding in a vehicle using it and pulling a 42' very heavy trailer. Like Howard, I decided to just leave well enough alone and not comment on it further. I will say that it impressed me in several ways:
1) the stopping distance was noticeably reduced.
2) the turning radius was GREATLY reduced when the device freewheels. Making a U turn was AMAZING. Turning around on a 4-lane road with a median from the left lane was not only possible but simple. It does skid the trailer tires doing such a sharp turn, just as it would if you did a pivot with a standard truck. But you can DO the turn, which would otherwise be impossible.
Other than that I was not impressed with the complexities of the device, and the fact that you have to unlock the wheels to make a turn. I'm also not convinced of its stability at highway speeds based on some interactions I've had with people driving with it. But that is word of mouth, not personal experience.
IMO one is FAR better off buying the right truck.
My opinion is to search out the right truck AFTER you find your trailer. Saving money is not a good reason to buy this device. Buy the right truck. IMO.
TRAILERKING said
12:30 PM Apr 27, 2015
Basically turns the unit into a "B-Train"......sort of.
Along with something like that will come "User Error" and "User Neglect"......opening a whole other can'o'worms. Just like some don't even know how to properly set up and operate a tow dolly or even a tow bar.
MarkS said
12:49 PM Apr 27, 2015
IMO Jack is dead center on this one. The right truck is the way to go. Having sufficient capacity could easily be the difference between safely towing and finding yourself in a dangerous situation. Based on my experience, you can safely move your new fifth wheel a few miles with an under rated truck as long as you are aware and go slow. But towing long distances you are far more likely to find yourself in emergency situations that your combination cannot safely handle. Trucks are typically rated for the weight they can safely handle.
An example is, a typical semi tractor is rated at 80,000 pounds GCVW. One of our drivers picked up a load the other day and weighed in at 123,000 and change. He moved it without incident, in fact said it handled fine. Had he crossed a DOT scale the word "fine" would have taken on an entirely different meaning. A very expensive meaning. My point is, even though he was way over the rated GCVW, he moved the vehicle about 50 miles without problems. The boss promptly reminded him that smart phones have a calculator than can accurately do addition and we aren't the post office...because it fits it doesn't necessarily ship.
All that for this...when a toddler rides his trike into your path, you need to be rated for the GCVW of your rig. You will at some point need the stopping power afforded by sufficient rating. Also, when descending a mountain, you need to be able to manage speed. I play a little game when I traverse the Grapevine here in California. I am not allowed to touch my brakes. I have to manage my speed with gears and jake. I give myself demerits if I use my brakes. I keep my speed below 40 on the long downhill stretches without using my brakes. It is a thrill to watch the 43' toy haulers being pulled by a 2500 going down the hill at 55+. The associated body bags are not quite as thrilling.
Always remember, you can descend a hill many times too slowly. You only get one chance to come down too fast.
Sushidog said
06:26 PM Apr 28, 2015
cheryls-other-half wrote:
(at the Spring Educational rally), and just had dinner with someone with a F-450 who (and I quote anonymously)
"I am so jealous of your F-550. I wish my truck wasn't so underpowered"
I thought the 6.7l V-8 diesel found in an F-550 was the same engine (maybe with slightly different tuning) used is the F-250 and up? Thus it would produce the same power. True the F-550 is a more capable TV, with a lower final gear ratio, sturdier frame, etc. but as far as engine and transmission (power), an F-450 and an F-550 are identical.
Someone please correct me if I am wrong.
I bought my F-250 for towing a large travel trailer (well within the manufacturer's specs), not a heavy fiver. Indeed, I would not be happy with it towing a FT sized fiver (though Ford says it's rated for 15,900 lbs.) This is far too much for any SRW truck, IMHO.
Of course if I had a Smart car, and a tow dolly I would be set!
Chip
Terry and Jo said
12:49 PM Apr 29, 2015
Chip,
While it is not in Mitch's signature, their F550 is a 2005 model, thus it has a different engine, and it may also have a different transmission and differential.
Back when we were researching for a tow vehicle (2008-2009), what I found with regards to the F550 and the F450 was that the F450 was rated higher with regards to weights. That is why we went with a F450. Size-wise, the two different models were very similar, but I can't remember exactly what it was about the F550 that made it less capable than the F450. It "might" have been that I was looking at a cab/chassis model of the F550 instead of one with the pickup bed.
Terry
Sushidog said
03:10 PM Apr 29, 2015
Thanks Terry and Joe, that makes sense.
Yep comparing the 2005 6.0l (325 hp and to 570 lb/ft tq) to the 2008-9 6.4l (like I have) with its 350 hp and 650 lb/ft tq motor is a pretty big power difference, regardless which platform you choose. Compared to a 2015, 6.7l (with 440 hp and a massive 860 lb/ft of torque) is night and day. It's amazing how much more power these new motors now make. I'd love to be able to afford one - maybe in a few more years - but by then the new 2020 models will be out with about 600hp and 1,000+ lb/ft of tq, right?
That new F-450 with 5,450 lbs of payload capacity and 31,200 lbs of towing capacity sure is sweet, but at over $50k even for a stripped down base model (and over $60k for a decked out model) I'll just have to drool. You can get a good, used HDT truck with much more capability for far less.
If they'd only improve the motor's efficiency along with the power output, but it seems this progression is not linear, with the old 7.3 taking top honors and my 6.4 being the worst of the bunch as far as efficiency goes. Still, I typically get in the 20-21 mpg range with it (not towing of course) combined city/hwy mpg - not too shoddy in my book. Bottom line is it can tow what I want it to, and it's what I can afford, so that makes it even better. I feel very fortunate. A truck that will pull 40k lbs, with a thousand ft/lb torque that gets 25 mpg sounds great, but if it's way out of my budget what difference does it make, as I'll never be able to own one.
Chip
Bill and Linda said
03:59 PM Apr 29, 2015
MarkS wrote:
Also, when descending a mountain, you need to be able to manage speed. I play a little game when I traverse the Grapevine here in California. I am not allowed to touch my brakes. I have to manage my speed with gears and jake. I give myself demerits if I use my brakes. I keep my speed below 40 on the long downhill stretches without using my brakes. It is a thrill to watch the 43' toy haulers being pulled by a 2500 going down the hill at 55+. The associated body bags are not quite as thrilling.
Always remember, you can descend a hill many times too slowly. You only get one chance to come down too fast.
Mark:
I thought I was the only one who played this game of not using brakes.I do the same and if I have to touch the brakes I know I didn’t “get a hold of it” with the transmission / exhaust brake, “correctly.”That includes Eisenhower and I-17 going into Phoenix which, as Jack says, seems to never quit.But you do have to have the proper equipment and technique to play this game which tends to form good driving habits.
dssamp said
02:11 PM Feb 11, 2016
My truck is a 2015 F350, 6.7 4.30 gears, 4x4, King Ranch. I ordered the heavy tow package, which requires the 4.30 gears. Has the push button bread system which is awesome. Currently have a Lance TC, 1172 weighs in around 5200 when loaded. The is basically a 2008 F450 Tow Boss with changes
In 2015 Ford changed the injection system and turbo. Power is 460 HP and 860 FT Lb Torque. Also comes with a wider front end for some awesome turning. Average 10-12 with the Truck Camper and a 22' Ranger Reata, 15-18 unloaded.
The cab chassi style trucks are de-rated in the HP/Tq output and still have the older injectors/system and turbo
Just info...
Cummins12V98 said
05:58 AM Feb 12, 2016
"Has the push button bread system which is awesome"
Please explain what this is?
CJSX2fromCT said
07:29 AM Feb 12, 2016
"Has the push button bread system which is awesome"
I'll take a warm fresh loaf of rye plz...... nothing beats it with butter melting all over......mmmmmmmm
Terry and Jo said
08:43 AM Feb 12, 2016
Funny...
...does the bread come out of the glove box or the console?
Terry
(Sorry, I just couldn't resist.)
BiggarView said
10:05 AM Feb 12, 2016
Terry and Jo wrote:
Funny...
...does the bread come out of the glove box or the console?
Terry
(Sorry, I just couldn't resist.)
I thought bread came out of an ATM.... Just "knead" to make that clear. Wonder if that will get a rise. D'OH!
-- Edited by BiggarView on Friday 12th of February 2016 10:07:26 AM
Looking for a truck to haul the 5er. Many have duallys, are they really better than regular wheels? We know nothing about this kind of stuff. Took months to pick out the rig we wanted. Now what to buy to pull it. We're going with the Keystone Avalanche. Any help appreciated!!!
Duallys give at least two advantages, especially with 36-foot and longer trailers. They give a lot more stability in turns and maneuvering and should one rear tire go low in air or have a blowout, one still has the extra tire to do the job while traveling to a service center at a slower speed to avoid overheating.
Terry
Won't have a tow vehicle without them now.
I really like the duals vs the single wheel.
Jim
Yes! This is a long discussion and a lot of facts to back up that statement of "yes;" but unless the 5er weighs less than something like 14,000lbs, get a dually for all the reasons indicated and a lot more. I'd have a dually to pull a 5er regardless due to the increased stability not to mention safety.
Bill
Dualley yes. Hauler bed as well if your weights allow for one as Schreiber than the pickup bed. Get more truck then you think you need.
-- Edited by Neil and Connie on Wednesday 1st of April 2015 02:40:48 PM
The duallies feel more stable when towing, panic braking, tight maneuvering and especially on curvy mountain roads.
I would not go back to towing with a single rear wheel truck.
I agree. I have towed with both and the dually is much better. It just feels more substantial and stable. It is more difficult to find parking and drive thru windows takes a little practice. The only real downside is driving on slushy or roads narrowed by snow banks.
I have a personal experience with the flat-tire-in-the-rain scenario. DRWs made the difference between changing it on the side of the road or at a rest stop.
I've never towed a fifth wheel with an SRW but after belonging to this forum for a couple of years, I decided to listen to the seasoned RVers here and get a DRW...glad I did.
Since joining this forum almost three years ago, I became more aware of the fivers I would meet on the highway. This is only what I observed, but it looks like the majority are pulled by SRWs, either 3/4 or one ton. Most of them are probably doing it trouble free, too. We will always have a dually.
Vance
Dual Wheel safety story number whatever -
Had a rock cut the inside tire of the dually coming down I-17 into Phoenix with the fiver connected. Stopped at the Sunset Point rest stop. Always check the tires and lugs when we stop – found the inner totally flat. Even though the now single outer tire was quite overloaded I never noticed a problem coming down the mountain. Changed the tire and went on. A non-event.
Duals are a very good thing and totally worth the extra expense and very small inconvenience some describe even with a modest size fiver.
I am a newbie to this forum. We will be semi full timing next year. I presently have a 2014 F250 diesel and was not really wanting to upgrade to a dually to tow the 5th wheel we are wanting to buy. I have been searching and searching trying to find an answer to my dilemma. I think I have found it in this: http://www.automatedsafetyhitch.com/. This works perfectly I think! For about 11 thousand dollars I will have a hitch that I can remove anytime and nothing will be in the bed of my pickup. We can still use the F-250 or even something smaller if we desired and still tow a 16K or 18K trailer! And more safely than a dually I might add. Having the 5th on its own tow axle rated at 6K or the upgrade to 8K I think is just fantastic! Check this out folks. This I am sure is what I will be using!
Yes it is legal in every state! Check out all the website. The inventor states that it does not require a license. This attaches via 3 points onto a special receiver hitch you put on in place of your factory receiver. It becomes an integral part of your tow vehicle. Since it is an attachment it is legal.
-- Edited by RodandVal on Saturday 25th of April 2015 09:27:43 AM
-- Edited by RodandVal on Saturday 25th of April 2015 09:29:37 AM
-- Edited by RodandVal on Saturday 25th of April 2015 09:34:06 AM
No, you won't be overloading the truck axles, but, you might find the F250 challenged by the total weight it would be towing if you are looking at 16K-18K for the trailer plus the device to hook it up to. Remember you'll be pulling/towing it as well.
Brian
Yes, I most likely will be exceeding the towing capacity according to Ford specs. However, I will NOT be overloaded. I have used my F250 on the farm pulling 40,000+ wagons of grain to town. Albeit in low range and only 25 to 30 miles an hour with the wagons having full brakes and lighting. I know the capacity of my truck for towing and Ford really under rates these babies! Having an additional axle rated at 6000 lbs with large disc brakes will definitely increase my towing capacity giving me 10 wheels with brakes. I would much rather go this route than be the person who has a large 5th wheel sitting in his pickup bed knowing full well he has exceeded both his vehicles weight carrying capacity plus its towing capacity. And there are many many many of these on the roads.
For those persons who think that driving a dually with a flat tire while still carrying the fiver is fine to get to a repair shop just remember this: You have compromised the integrity of the good tire by exceeding its rated load capacity and now to be safe you must replace both tires otherwise you risk a blowout sometime in the future while driving at highway speeds.
RodandVal, any time you exceed the CGVWR of the truck, you are asking for trouble. While the ASHS setup may make it safer to tow certain 5ers up to the trucks rated tow capacity compared to a more tradional fiver in the bed arrangement, if your truck is rated to tow 15K, trying to tow 1600lbs for the ASHS and 16K-18K for a trailer is bound to break something sooner rather than later, or put you in a situation you may not be able to get out of. Why push your luck when your life may be on the line or that of others.
Still, you seem to have already made up your mind for your particular situation. I'd caution you to reconsider such a plan for the details you have suggested.
I noticed in one of the videos from the ASH website that the truck was scrubbing large quantities of rubber while manuevering a larger trailer in a tight backing turn. I can't imagine that being good for the tire sidewalls or treadlife. Bad enough to have some scrubbing on the trailer why add the truck tires to the equation?
Bill's right about steep grades. Too heavy a trailer will have the tail wagging the dog in an emergency.
40k+ grain carts from farm to town had to be relatively short flat runs, even then, most certainly a strain on mechanicals for you truck.
Why would Ford (or anybody for that matter) underate their trucks on purpose? Surely they have done their own tow testing and would assign the highest competetive rating they could and avoid lawsuits by not overrating them.
While you can certainly accomplish the things you say, your comments sound more like bravado and ignore the inherent risks of overtaxing the tow vehicle or its components.
Again, the ASHS seems like an valid alternative for towing 5ers upto the rated weight allowed for the truck involved, but not an excuse to exceed it in any application.
JMHO, Brian
-- Edited by biggaRView on Sunday 26th of April 2015 06:02:10 AM
I have done mountains many times towing bumper pulls AKA Travel Trailers. Presently have a 2015 Blackstone 280RKSB 34 ft. bumper pull. A premium travel trailer but alas the manufacturers don't seem to want to put as heavy a frame under them as they do 5th wheels so we have to step up 5th wheels to get the amount of slides and options we want as full timers. When I got this trailer last summer it was to last us several years but unbeknownst to me my shoulder was about to give out and now needing to have a reverse shoulder replacement I am giving up and retiring.
So doing mountains will definitely not be a problem when using the fiver on the Automated Safety Hitch! As I stated earlier I will be gaining an additional pair of disc brakes integrated into the system. With the diesel having engine braking and the tow category on the transmission there is plenty of braking in addition to the brakes!
Brian I watched all the videos several times and never saw the tire scrubbing you describe. Have you ever watched the tires on a tandem axle trailer which includes all fivers and most tt as the trailer is turning either going forward or backing? They scrub extremely hard and I mean EXTREMELY hard. Does this mean that those trailers should be considered unsafe? This machine is designed to steer while making sharp forward turns. Backing scrubbing will be only minimal.
I'm not suggesting it (tirescrubbing) was unsafe, only that it would reduce tire life through abuse. Having worked in an intermodal railyard for many years I have seen many examples of such abuse, and tire failures were and are a common occurance from tight turning of trailers at such facilities. I suspect RVs (TV and trailer setups) would not be subject to such extreme wear and tear as that but nonetheless, tire abuse is tire abuse any way you cause it to happen.
-- Edited by biggaRView on Saturday 25th of April 2015 02:47:16 PM
This system has been "touted" by a few people here on the forums before. However, none of them had ever actually used one. The truck manufacturers list weight capacities on trucks for a reason, and to exceed the GCVW of the truck is asking for trouble. Also, keep in mind that in addition to the weight of the trailer, one would also be adding the weight of the AHS to the weight that the truck would be pulling. So, if the trailer is already putting your F250 overweight, the AHS would just be adding to it.
Personally, in all the RV's I've seen over the years, I've never seen one with the AHS attached to it.
As a former professional truck driver, I would never want to overload a truck. I think you would be better off to take the money for the AHS and trade up to a heavier, more capable truck.
As for hauling heavy loads on the farm, I've done that as well. I seriously doubt you'd want to travel with an RV at 25 to 30 mph, and I'm sure the other drivers on the road wouldn't appreciate you doing that either.
Terry
-- Edited by Terry and Jo on Saturday 25th of April 2015 02:46:20 PM
You state that you have never seen one of these in use. They have only been in production for a few years. Advertising the use of these seems to be a short coming of the company, most likely the reason they are in only limited use. The inventor has a long history of making safety improvements in the aeronautical industry and wants to contribute to the safety of towing trailers. I think this meets all the necessary requirements and also can save a person the unnecessary expense of having to purchase a HDT truck.
Terry's right.... engines, trannies, chassis, drivetrains are designed to tow a certain weight and exceeding it through trickery (I would be tempted to say even ASH would not tell you to exceed truck MFR tow ratings) is asking for mechanical trouble to say the least.
-- Edited by biggaRView on Saturday 25th of April 2015 03:57:20 PM
Do as you wish Brian. The inventor touts the idea he wishes to help with towing safety. Have you really watched all the videos, including the interview with him? The man is very sincere and only uses the best American steel with full welds, no spot welds. The units come with a 3 year warranty. How many 5th's or TT come with a 3 year warranty?
-- Edited by RodandVal on Saturday 25th of April 2015 04:13:23 PM
Well, this conversation has gotten off-topic. But I'll throw in my two cents on both the dually and the automated safety hitch.
Yes, on a dually for full-timers due to stability and extra capacity of the rear axle and extra stopping capability of four tires as opposed to two. Understanding the multiple purposes of a truck for those that aren't full-timers, I'm not quite as adamant as long as the combination is safely driven for short periods and not on steep downgrades. Typically, SRW trucks are overloaded on their rear axle and their rear tires when towing something as heavy as a typical full-timer fifth wheel. Having weighed RVs for three years, it was quite common for SRW trucks to be overloaded.
As for the automated safety hitch, it does help with the overloaded SRW issue, but it creates more practical problems for the full-timer. I HAVE had one demonstrated for me and I was not impressed. I ran the guy doing the demo through all kinds of practical situations in an "uncontrolled" environment. Afterward, I talked to the designer of the product at length about what I witnessed. I videoed the demonstration and it wasn't pretty. It caused ruts and skid marks in tight turns and the demonstrator had trouble hitching and unhitching from it. It was the one time that I chose NOT to post a review, photos, and the videos because it would have had such a negative effect on the guy's business (I just left it that I was unimpressed and couldn't recommend it). Of course, he blamed everything on the person doing the demo for not demonstrating it properly (the guy he specifically sent to me).
In addition to creating extra length on the vehicle combination, it creates a hassle in leveling the RV front to back, it does NOT make parking in a campsite easier, it creates an extra level of service and maintenance, and it adds the inconvenience of what to do with it once you are parked and need to get it out of the way (many campsites won't accommodate it AND the truck).
It may make towing safer from a pure engineering standpoint (and I'm not even sure about that), but my fear is it will have the opposite effect and encourage people without enough truck to tow trailers much larger than they should be towing. As a former attorney, I can tell you that I'd be all over that in a lawsuit.
"Sir, what was your incentive to use Automated Safety Hitch in your trailer towing configuration? Answer: 'They told me I could tow a bigger trailer than my truck's owners manual said I could - I wouldn't have to go out and buy a bigger truck.' Thank you. No further questions."
There are many reasons this product has not caught on in the RV world, not the least of which is that potential liability issue. He has offered numerous incentives and commissions to people like us to help promote the product. I think it is far more suited to the horse industry and to some commercial applications, but I wouldn't have one as a full-time RVer and no amount of aeronautical engineering speak would convince me otherwise. Just my not-so-humble opinion on this one.
RodandVal,
If you disconnect the automated safety hitch and push it up under the fifth wheel, then it's in the way and you can't access your front compartments. If you leave it hooked up to the fifth wheel, you can see that it will stick out two or three feet in the front, and often that is just enough to keep you from being able to park your truck in a campsite. Often, in order to get your truck to fit in a campsite, you have to back the tailgate right up to the kingpin. It's not a huge deal, but it will be an issue from time to time.
Also, if you leave it hitched up, how do you level front to back if the front needs to go up or down several inches? If you need to go up very far, you'll have to disconnect it. If you need to go down, you have to either disconnect and move it or deflate the tires.
I too thought this product was intriguing, but having seen it in person and having considered some of the practical aspects of using it, and having been contacted multiple times under the premise of "This product will allow people to tow bigger trailers safely with lesser trucks", I just can't get behind it. Now you may buy one and love it, but we won't be recommending this option for our RVing friends.
As someone to whom a computer is much easier to diagnose and maintain then a car/Truck/Dually, and
who has NEVER ever ever changed a tire, or oil in anything that has a motor: (note those are big boots!)
I can tell you that in 8 months of being full-time on the road that:
The idea of buying a trailer and THEN buying the truck is ok, but don't think that using your current truck will work.
I am SO so Grateful that my current F-550 with a hauler body can carry my trailer and then some, with capacity to spare.
(at the Spring Educational rally), and just had dinner with someone with a F-450 who (and I quote anonymously)
"I am so jealous of your F-550. I wish my truck wasn't so underpowered"
Just remember. As the original question was asked, is a Dually a must?
my answer:
"Depends on
1) the stopping distance was noticeably reduced.
2) the turning radius was GREATLY reduced when the device freewheels. Making a U turn was AMAZING. Turning around on a 4-lane road with a median from the left lane was not only possible but simple. It does skid the trailer tires doing such a sharp turn, just as it would if you did a pivot with a standard truck. But you can DO the turn, which would otherwise be impossible.
Other than that I was not impressed with the complexities of the device, and the fact that you have to unlock the wheels to make a turn. I'm also not convinced of its stability at highway speeds based on some interactions I've had with people driving with it. But that is word of mouth, not personal experience.
IMO one is FAR better off buying the right truck.
My opinion is to search out the right truck AFTER you find your trailer. Saving money is not a good reason to buy this device. Buy the right truck. IMO.
Along with something like that will come "User Error" and "User Neglect"......opening a whole other can'o'worms. Just like some don't even know how to properly set up and operate a tow dolly or even a tow bar.
An example is, a typical semi tractor is rated at 80,000 pounds GCVW. One of our drivers picked up a load the other day and weighed in at 123,000 and change. He moved it without incident, in fact said it handled fine. Had he crossed a DOT scale the word "fine" would have taken on an entirely different meaning. A very expensive meaning. My point is, even though he was way over the rated GCVW, he moved the vehicle about 50 miles without problems. The boss promptly reminded him that smart phones have a calculator than can accurately do addition and we aren't the post office...because it fits it doesn't necessarily ship.
All that for this...when a toddler rides his trike into your path, you need to be rated for the GCVW of your rig. You will at some point need the stopping power afforded by sufficient rating. Also, when descending a mountain, you need to be able to manage speed. I play a little game when I traverse the Grapevine here in California. I am not allowed to touch my brakes. I have to manage my speed with gears and jake. I give myself demerits if I use my brakes. I keep my speed below 40 on the long downhill stretches without using my brakes. It is a thrill to watch the 43' toy haulers being pulled by a 2500 going down the hill at 55+. The associated body bags are not quite as thrilling.
Always remember, you can descend a hill many times too slowly. You only get one chance to come down too fast.
Chip,
While it is not in Mitch's signature, their F550 is a 2005 model, thus it has a different engine, and it may also have a different transmission and differential.
Back when we were researching for a tow vehicle (2008-2009), what I found with regards to the F550 and the F450 was that the F450 was rated higher with regards to weights. That is why we went with a F450. Size-wise, the two different models were very similar, but I can't remember exactly what it was about the F550 that made it less capable than the F450. It "might" have been that I was looking at a cab/chassis model of the F550 instead of one with the pickup bed.
Terry
Yep comparing the 2005 6.0l (325 hp and to 570 lb/ft tq) to the 2008-9 6.4l (like I have) with its 350 hp and 650 lb/ft tq motor is a pretty big power difference, regardless which platform you choose. Compared to a 2015, 6.7l (with 440 hp and a massive 860 lb/ft of torque) is night and day. It's amazing how much more power these new motors now make. I'd love to be able to afford one - maybe in a few more years - but by then the new 2020 models will be out with about 600hp and 1,000+ lb/ft of tq, right?
That new F-450 with 5,450 lbs of payload capacity and 31,200 lbs of towing capacity sure is sweet, but at over $50k even for a stripped down base model (and over $60k for a decked out model) I'll just have to drool. You can get a good, used HDT truck with much more capability for far less.
If they'd only improve the motor's efficiency along with the power output, but it seems this progression is not linear, with the old 7.3 taking top honors and my 6.4 being the worst of the bunch as far as efficiency goes. Still, I typically get in the 20-21 mpg range with it (not towing of course) combined city/hwy mpg - not too shoddy in my book. Bottom line is it can tow what I want it to, and it's what I can afford, so that makes it even better. I feel very fortunate. A truck that will pull 40k lbs, with a thousand ft/lb torque that gets 25 mpg sounds great, but if it's way out of my budget what difference does it make, as I'll never be able to own one.
Chip
Mark:
I thought I was the only one who played this game of not using brakes. I do the same and if I have to touch the brakes I know I didn’t “get a hold of it” with the transmission / exhaust brake, “correctly.” That includes Eisenhower and I-17 going into Phoenix which, as Jack says, seems to never quit. But you do have to have the proper equipment and technique to play this game which tends to form good driving habits.
In 2015 Ford changed the injection system and turbo. Power is 460 HP and 860 FT Lb Torque. Also comes with a wider front end for some awesome turning. Average 10-12 with the Truck Camper and a 22' Ranger Reata, 15-18 unloaded.
The cab chassi style trucks are de-rated in the HP/Tq output and still have the older injectors/system and turbo
Just info...
Please explain what this is?
I'll take a warm fresh loaf of rye plz...... nothing beats it with butter melting all over......mmmmmmmm
Funny...
...does the bread come out of the glove box or the console?
Terry
(Sorry, I just couldn't resist.)
I thought bread came out of an ATM....
Just "knead" to make that clear. Wonder if that will get a rise. D'OH!
-- Edited by BiggarView on Friday 12th of February 2016 10:07:26 AM