Howdy y'all from Myrtle Beach.

Here's the question.

Recently we upgraded 85% of the lights in our rig from halogen to LED's.

Before we did this we had the 10W G4 base halogen's in the3.5in sockets, without a problem.

All of a sudden (I'd say after 2 weeks of having led's in), we kept popping one fuse. (#7)

on that fuse are:

dining room table light (3 wedge bulbs)

recliner led lights  (3 10W 3.5 in sockets

2 (not yet changed)  reading lights (twist socket).

3 10W 3.5in sockets by tv

3 10W 3.5 in sockets by stove

and a 1 bulb (now led) wedge base in a utility light shape by counter.

NOW for the good stuff.

isolated the problem to the 3 sockets by stove

(isolated by using over 15 fuses until I found that just turning the SWITCH for these 3 lights (even with no bulbs in them)

will burn out the fuse.

I have not yet taken the switch off, to test.  (someone mentioned it sounded like it wasn't grounded...)

At the fuse box, I do see a wire attached next to the fuse, but I haven't taken the cover off yet)

ideas?  tips?

I  went thru all the fuses, because I started with all the other lights, and kept blowing when 3 halogen were back in the fixture, then 2, etc...

Cheers and Merry Xmas to all!

(and Happy Chanakuah/Kwanza too!)

Mitch

The Junkman wrote:

---

Are any of those on dimmer switches? Are the Led's dimable ?

I bought some for some display cases I had.. Because It was on a dimmer, I needed different led lights..just a thought..

---

 thanks for the suggestions folks.

1) The LEDs that were not working were NOT on a dimmer.  and the ones on the dimmer switch Are working ok (so far!?)

2) I mentioned that the bulbs I bought were  "side-mounted pins" on a circle disc.  These were sized for the 4.5 inch large 20w  (12v) light, but did fit in the 3.5 inch fixture too.

I can't imagine that the wattage on these (led vs halogen ) could be the problem.   At any rate:

The sockets for the 3 bulbs were now empty, and were still blowing the circuit when the switch went on.

To ME that sounds like problem is in the SWITCH!

...and not doing anything until I have a 20pack of 20A fuses! (I know better now!)

cheryls-other-half wrote:

---

The Junkman wrote:

---

Are any of those on dimmer switches? Are the Led's dimable ?

I bought some for some display cases I had.. Because It was on a dimmer, I needed different led lights..just a thought..

---

 thanks for the suggestions folks.

 

1) The LEDs that were not working were NOT on a dimmer.  and the ones on the dimmer switch Are working ok (so far!?)

 2) I mentioned that the bulbs I bought were  "side-mounted pins" on a circle disc.  These were sized for the 4.5 inch large 20w  (12v) light, but did fit in the 3.5 inch fixture too.

I can't imagine that the wattage on these (led vs halogen ) could be the problem.   At any rate:

The sockets for the 3 bulbs were now empty, and were still blowing the circuit when the switch went on.

To ME that sounds like problem is in the SWITCH!

 ...and not doing anything until I have a 20pack of 20A fuses! (I know better now!)

  

---

Mitch, based on experience with the type of “pin mount” lights (bulbs) you are using, I suspect that when you put in one of the LED lamps you somehow pushed one of the female connections back against either the case or somehow to the other leg of the wire.  Simply put, one of those light fixtures is now shorted and when you turn on the switch that completes the connection and hence a blown fuse.  Seen this before.

I suggest you remove each fixture and look for a short.  You can test with an ohm meter without blowing a fuse each time. Keep the switch off naturally when using the ohm meter across the pins.

Bill

Bill and Linda wrote:

---

Mitch, based on experience with the type of “pin mount” lights (bulbs) you are using, I suspect that when you put in one of the LED lamps you somehow pushed one of the female connections back against either the case or somehow to the other leg of the wire.  Simply put, one of those light fixtures is now shorted and when you turn on the switch that completes the connection and hence a blown fuse.  Seen this before.

 

I suggest you remove each fixture and look for a short.  You can test with an ohm meter without blowing a fuse each time. Keep the switch off naturally when using the ohm meter across the pins.

 

Bill

---

 Yes, like I said earlier........................Do as Bill says. I'm almost certain this may be a problem. I doubt it is a problem with the switch but you are the one there doing the troubleshooting.

Gives me something useful to do in the house tomorrow.

 ..so i should start by

running meter across to check for a short.

and then removing fixture, and dis-assembling wires  to see if one is pushed out?

I have to find wire I can push into the pins , as the probes on my meter is too big!

cheryls-other-half wrote:

---

Gives me something useful to do in the house tomorrow.

 

 ..so i should start by

running meter across to check for a short.

and then removing fixture, and dis-assembling wires  to see if one is pushed out?

 

I have to find wire I can push into the pins , as the probes on my meter is too big!

-- Edited by cheryls-other-half on Monday 22nd of December 2014 02:46:15 PM

---

No......poking the multi-meter test probes into the socket will not check for a short. If you can even visually look into the socket where the bulb pushes into and see if you can see anything dissimilar. If not getting any where with that, the best way to check if the socket/fixture is shorted is to remove it from the circuit. With the fixture removed and unhooked from the wiring, use your multi-meter and check for continuity with the bulb removed. There should be none. If there is continuity then you have a short within the fixture/socket.  If the fixtures check out OK then do another test. While the fixtures are still out of the circuit, make sure the wires coming out of the wall are not touching each other, then turn on the switch. See if it popped the fuse. If it did then there is a problem from the switch/wiring up to the fixture. You can also check for continuity between the two fixture wires coming out of the wall(with the switch off). There should be no continuity with the switch off. If there is, then there is a short in that wire run.

But again I would do the test with the fixtures first and rule that out.

I'm not an electrician, although I've worked with it a good bit over the years.  If one were to use a couple of short pieces of wire cut off from a paper clip to insert into the pin sockets of the fixture, wouldn't that allow one to quickly check for continuity (thus a short if it did have continuity) without having to remove each fixture.  I'd think that would let one to narrow down the options, should one have continuity, thus saving the time to remove every fixture.

On the other hand, maybe even a paper clip is too big of a wire?  All that said, if one doesn't get continuity at one of the fixtures, then one would still have to remove each one.

Terry

Mitch Snips... and gives current status (ugh) of the mess.

TRAILERKING wrote:

No......poking the multi-meter test probes into the socket will not check for a short.

If you can even visually look into the socket where the bulb pushes into and see if you can see anything dissimilar.

---> Nothing with that 

If not getting any where with that, the best way to check if the socket/fixture is shorted is to remove it from the circuit.

----> did that, took each of three fixtures out of circuit one at a time, still blew.

 With the fixture removed and unhooked from the wiring, use your multi-meter and check for continuity with the bulb removed. There should be none.

----> Went one better  took each fixture to a different 12V power, and tested, each fixture Tested OK (TOK) with both halogen and leds.

If there is continuity then you have a short within the fixture/socket.  If the fixtures check out OK then do another test.

While the fixtures are still out of the circuit, make sure the wires coming out of the wall are not touching each other, then turn on the switch. See if it popped the fuse.

----> Yeah, did look like a couple of the wires were touching on back of switch.  Removed and replaced the (TWO-Gang/double switch)***

----> Even with nothing connected when switch was thrown, still popped fuse.

If it did then there is a problem from the switch/wiring up to the fixture.

You can also check for continuity between the two fixture wires coming out of the wall(with the switch off).

----> Did disconnect the curio wiring.  hope that may be part of problem

---->  Also tested the fixture at THIS location (where 12V was, without the switch, and it DID work..)

 

There should be no continuity with the switch off. If there is, then there is a short in that wire run.

But again I would do the test with the fixtures first and rule that out.

---

*** Yes, I forgot to mention it was a dual gang switch, one to my kitchen spots and one to my curio cabinet lights (rarely used)

OK: Status:

Had to wait till my 25 pack of fuses came in.

----> So.  All fixtures seem to work.

I think I will try taping the curio wires with electrical tape, and see if the switch works with just that.

(and leave other switch for later if it works (I hope...I hope..)

(don't I have better things to do Christmas Eve (even if I AM celebrating the last day of Chanakuah?)

Cheers and happy family time to all..

mitch

OK. Current Status.

Discovered SOMETHING was shorted in switch.

Disconnected the kitchen spots, and the curio lights, connected the oven spot back to the other (common circuit) and left it alone until I had some "ME" time.

Have a fresh pack of Q25 20Amp fuses (click HERE if you want to get a box from amazon--I might make enough for beer money-HAH!)

At any rate, I have a question.

Below is a picture of a 120V circuit I took from the internet, showing two switches.

I have made some comments, and hope someone can confirm the correct settings  You may have to open picture in a new tab!

(linky here too: )

Looking at your diagram in a new tab. It will work. Just make sure your polarity ls correct. ( LED lighting need the positive and negative connections to be correct to work) You can check your polarity with a DVM where it comes into the switch, or where the lights are connected to the wire.  It does not matter what the polarity is going through the switch as long as it is correct at the LED's

Aha.  Got the diagram to display.  Some additional notes and questions

OK.

The additions.   Switches are 12V variety, one has 3 position, replacement has 2 position, one marked load, and one marked positive.

So... I would think that connecting one wire from V(minus)

Voltage in  (neg) ---> directly to light and curio fixtures  to fixture Black (Pos) wire

Voltage in (pos) ---> to the two  switches (bottom/load) side (marked load/neg)

From fixture lights (Neg) ---> positive wire on switch.

NOW for the strange reactions..

When I connect it like that, the spotlights went on, but switch didnt work at all.

(I  did not connect the curio lights, as they are currently dis-assembled, but that should have no impact..)

SO why is it that the switches seem to not be working?? 

Ideas? Stupid ass-u-m-tions on my part?

I need to know.

----------------------------------------------

rv-vagabond wrote:

---

Looking at your diagram in a new tab. It will work. Just make sure your polarity ls correct. ( LED lighting need the positive and negative connections to be correct to work) You can check your polarity with a DVM where it comes into the switch, or where the lights are connected to the wire.  It does not matter what the polarity is going through the switch as long as it is correct at the LED's

-- Edited by rv-vagabond on Tuesday 6th of January 2015 08:39:46 AM

---

I can not get your new diagram, see your new notes. Can not even open it in a new tab .

I suggest that you disconnect the wires to the switch that powers the lght which came on. Does the light stay on? Then you have another power source to the light from somewhere else other the the switch you just removed. If te light does not come on, ohm out the switch. should be zero ohms with the switch on, infinite ohms with the switch off.

Mitch Quips...

bjoyce wrote:

---

Yesterday we finished the multi-year plan of moving from fluorescent to LED and ran into a problem. The last two were wired together on one circuit and when I changed one, I could not get the LED to work reliably. I asked for help and the guy who helped also had the same problem. Then he turned off the fluorescent and the LED worked reliably. When we replaced both, everything worked. He said sometimes LEDs will not mix with other electronics. So, "Recently we upgraded 85% of the lights in our rig from halogen to LED's." might be related to your problem.

---

 ooh Bill you're so funny!

will try to post image again here. link after this attempt... (removed as it didn't work!

apparently, after 24 years on the www, and 10 years online before that, I am TOO STUPID to figure out how to correctly post an image.

(yes hosted somewhere, I understand that!!!)

oh, and this is a link to the diagram.., the html  is manually here... https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B67VaA2DcAKCMzk1c3JNS3kwbEE/view?usp=sharing

No, this circuit had only LED's on it.  Good catch though.  For others reading, if you put a LED into an (originally) Halogen socket, it may not work BECAUSE polarity matters on most LED lights.

So if it doesn't work, simply pull out, and put it back in the  other direction.

BTW, there is at LEAST one manufacturer who's LED's are NOT polarity dependent. don't remember name off top of my head.

PS What did you wind up doing for the fluorescent?

Replacing the entire tube, with a strip?  replacing the full fixture?  I haven't decided on my answer yet, and still am not sure...

-- Edited by cheryls-other-half on Friday 9th of January 2015 04:00:27 PM

Edit by moderator: Activated link.  Terry

We tried a couple different methods to replace the fluorescents and decided to replace the entire fixtures with Thin-lite Premium LED replacement fixtures - http://www.solarseller.com/thin_lite_led_lighting_low_voltage_dc_12_and_24_volt.htm (ours are LED742P and LED746P).  We like that they look just like the old ones, but have two settings.  The cheaper route is to put in LED strips and rewire, if you are handy with electric work.  I am not.  The replacement tubes ended up costing about the same money as replacing the dual tube fixtures.  Of our 9 fixtures, two have replacement tubes and 7 are the Premium LED fixtures.  For bulbs, I buy the closest lumen match.  I  have not replaced the three halogen recessed lights, since we rarely turn them on.  The bathroom vanity is still incandescent since it uses 4 clear bulbs and LEDs would look wrong. 

cheryls-other-half wrote:

---

Voltage in  (neg) ---> directly to light and curio fixtures  to fixture Black (Pos) wire

Voltage in (pos) ---> to the two  switches (bottom/load) side (marked load/neg)

From fixture lights (Neg) ---> positive wire on switch.

Connect the positive voltage in to the positive position on the switch, and the wire from the light fixture to the load side of the switch. (the lights are the load)