I'm gonna tread really lightly here, as I know a lot of you are dog owners, and that you travel with your critters... That said, I really prefer not to camp next to dogs, if at all possible. I love them as much as the next guy, but my camping experiences vary from the snoozing Lab, that wouldn't bark if a squirrel tap danced on his back, to the yippie little rat dogs that bark endlessly. The former is great, the latter drives me insane. Obviously it's not the animal's fault, but rather the two legged companions.
We have never stayed in an "RV park", or resort. Just State park campgrounds. In your experiences, how much of a problem is this for you, and how did you deal with it? I've tried talking very politely to folks, and have had some success. I find it is often short lived. "Hush now fluffy, who's a good boy?" 2 hours later, back to square one. I absolutely detest involving Rangers, or park staff. It just seems it should be common courtesy. Just as I keep my stereo volume down, so you can't hear it ten feet from my rig. Expecting people to keep their animals quiet and controlled, or leave them at home does not seem unreasonable to me.
Just looking for opinions, and experiences. We have almost completely given up on in-season camping at State parks, here in Washington, due to the lack of respect from other campers. Not only dogs, but "Little Johnny" on his Dr. Seuss equipped Flamboozled tricycle riding around at all hours of the night.
Thoughts?
Regards, Kyle
TRAILERKING said
09:46 AM Sep 9, 2014
Vagabond wrote:......... "Hush now fluffy, who's a good boy?" 2 hours later, back to square one. I absolutely detest involving Rangers, or park staff. It just seems it should be common courtesy. Just as I keep my stereo volume down, so you can't hear it ten feet from my rig. Expecting people to keep their animals quiet and controlled, or leave them at home does not seem unreasonable to me.
Thoughts?
Regards, Kyle
Sounds fair to me.............
Vagabond said
10:04 AM Sep 9, 2014
TRAILERKING wrote:
Vagabond wrote:......... "Hush now fluffy, who's a good boy?" 2 hours later, back to square one. I absolutely detest involving Rangers, or park staff. It just seems it should be common courtesy. Just as I keep my stereo volume down, so you can't hear it ten feet from my rig. Expecting people to keep their animals quiet and controlled, or leave them at home does not seem unreasonable to me.
Thoughts?
Regards, Kyle
Sounds fair to me.............
We will try to get a site next door to you :)
Kyle
Russ Ranger said
11:52 AM Sep 9, 2014
I guess it all depends on your point of view......
Imagine to guy who sets up his tent in a beautiful state park..... in pulls a 40' RV.
Generator kicks on for the next 3 hours, the view is blocked by a 12' tall-40' long monster, the air conditioner drones on for the next 3 days, exhaust from the generator/furnace/hot water heater wafts into his tent and to top it off the satellite TV is blaring through the RV windows. There is no night time darkness because the RV is lit up like a lighthouse. And that outdoor TV was just what the tenter was hoping would fill his weekend.
There went his peaceful weekend..... thanks Mr. RV.
I guess it all depends on your point of view......
(For those who can't recognize a small attempt at humor, this is just my creative writing for the morning. I think I may be the guy in the RV.)
-- Edited by Russ Ranger on Tuesday 9th of September 2014 11:59:18 AM
Vagabond said
12:29 PM Sep 9, 2014
Junkman, I agree on the close proximity of others causing strife, pretty much everywhere. I sense it all around me, in my sticks, bricks, and phony "keep ahead of the Jones's" neighborhood. It looks to me like everyone is fed up, and teetering on the brink...Of something. That's for another thread, on another forum. I plan to rock the boat as little as possible, while exploring the country, but I am also an up front kind of guy. Not afraid of confrontation, but I really, really hate it. Life is too short!
Russ, I get that angle also. As an amateur astronomer, light pollution drives me nuts. I do, however, expect, and accept, a certain level of "Productive nuisance", if you will. Lights on, for the safety of those using the facility. I don't want someone falling down the stairs of their coach, just so I can catch a better glimpse of a galaxy. I don't begrudge someone running an AC unit, or generator, if they need it.
Letting rover bark in his pen, while they go out for a gourmet dinner in town, get my blood boiling. Letting little johnny run around at 10pm, making "Joyful noise", is on my major disrespect list, also.
Just trying to get a feel for how prevalent this is, in those that have been FT for awhile. Also looking for any unique ideas on how to deal with it. (Legal, of course:))
Regards, Kyle
Lucky Mike said
12:43 PM Sep 9, 2014
A simple paintball gun with laser sites...!!!!!!!! a few pepperball splatts should quite fido up!!!
All campgrounds have leash laws and tie out rules.......if the leash is not in your hand the dog is not under your control.......if the dog is in a pen it is not leashed or under your control.
I own (or should I say Blessed) with a dog , Nikki is NEVER tied out or penned....if she barks she is inside the coach and has a reason to bark to alert me.
of course alot of times I wonder why parks dont have leashes and pens for kids...(I had a couple of them too...)
Lucky Mike said
12:49 PM Sep 9, 2014
roof top sniper method!!!!!........
lindy said
01:23 PM Sep 9, 2014
Had a dog on the site next to us that barked at anything that moved. We just HAPPENED to have a sonic bark stop unit with us. I went to their side of my unit and acted like I was doing something, placed the Sonic bark stopper on my tires pointed AT their dog. While it didn't stop the barking completely it cut it by about 90%!
WestWardHo said
01:53 PM Sep 9, 2014
Lindy, that is funny.
We've been an inadvertent offender and offended. We've learned - the hard way - if we leave our pup in our 5er without the TV on, windows closed, and leave her alone she will bark. We came back after a lunch out to our state park site to find a note on our door. We were VERY apologetic and upset with ourselves but the host was correct to leave that note. We didn't do it again.
While at a very nice private park for a week in Texas a couple with 3 dogs moved in next to us. In that location we both shared a wide yard with picnic tables at either end. They were obviously a higher income couple and the lady was on crutches. They went out every day about the time we were returning. The dogs barked out the open window on our side all evening so we couldn't sit out and enjoy. They seemed like nice people and the next morning I went over and chatted with the man sitting outside mentioning he had quite a handful with his wife and three dogs. He agreed and said she usually walks the dogs. I mentioned they probably weren't aware of it but that their dogs barked the whole time they were gone. I said we'd be happy to help walk the dogs because he was outnumbered and we understood. He said they had bark collars "somewhere" but it has never happened before. I wondered about the collars but didn't say anything. Again stated we'd be happy to help. Also said we'd learned to leave the TV on and windows closed and that helped our dog.
Next day, same thing. So when they returned home I met them at their truck and said we'd had company and couldn't sit out and their dogs barked the whole time thru the window that was only open on our side. Third day same thing. The man became perturbed and the next day before they left he let all three dogs eliminate in our yard and didn't clean up. Jesse actually stepped in it.
We should have called the manager the first day, but like you we didn't want to be complainers and felt we'd handled it they way we would like someone to approach us.
So call the ranger or the manager. It's rude, inconsiderate dog or generator owners that annoy us but they are in the minority. Yesterday a woman parked right next to us brought her dog over to do his business in our yard! At least she cleaned up after it.
Sherry
Vagabond said
02:33 PM Sep 9, 2014
The paintball gun is awesome. I would likely apply it to the owner, not the dog, however :). The Bark stopper is something I hadn't heard of. That is something I will look in to! Anything I could do that was proactive, without "tipping my hand" as it were, would be great. I have had too many situations like the one Sherry related above, where friendly contact failed, or even made the situation worse. Once a complaint is made, you are known as the complainer. If things just "Happen", you can always shrug, and be sympathetic....
I may be hypersensitive to this issue, after living next door to a virtual puppy mill for years, in my old neighborhood. She had a lawyer friend, and counted on the overworked people from the county to do nothing. Finally had to turn her in to the health department, when the rat infestation got bad enough. Good people lost serious money selling their neighboring homes because of her. I fully realize it could never get that bad in an RV, as I could simply hook and go. I'd just hate to get stuck in that situation for a month, if I have pre paid somewhere.
Keep em' rolling, if nothing else it's entertainment, and I have gotten two great suggestions so far!
Regards, Kyle
Lets get moving said
03:29 PM Sep 9, 2014
Our big black dog is a squirrel dance floor ☺️ But we have a few yappy rats in the neighborhood!
SnowGypsy said
03:31 PM Sep 9, 2014
We have been camping/RVing for years and what is described is the norm. You can call me a "complainer" or anything else but we follow the rules and expect others to do the same and when they don't, we make a complaint. I have seen owners leave dogs for 10 or 12 hours, the dogs barking the entire time and you got to wonder about "potty" time in the RV although I know many units are ruined by both inside toileting and chewing. I know some use the pads but they also leave a permanent smell probably from the acids, etc. Yuck! We have what looks like a birdhouse that discourages barking for dogs with disrespectful owners and for our barker, Rinnie, we bought a citronella bark collar which works like a dream. We haul our dogs with us. Just returned from 2 nights in our pop-up at a Corp of Engineers park in KS and with winter coming soon, it was nice and everyone seemed to be respectful of others. So, park next to us, break the rules, call me what you may but you'll be reported.
cejones4210 said
04:47 PM Sep 9, 2014
lindy wrote:
Had a dog on the site next to us that barked at anything that moved. We just HAPPENED to have a sonic bark stop unit with us. I went to their side of my unit and acted like I was doing something, placed the Sonic bark stopper on my tires pointed AT their dog. While it didn't stop the barking completely it cut it by about 90%!
We have one of these also, I bought it as a preventive for our dogs at our old house. I have terriers, they tend to be alarm dogs, but I do whatever is necessary to keep their barking under control. I ended up using the bark stopper on the side of the house as our neighbor had a dog that would bark for hours and they never did a thing to stop it or bring it in the house, even though they were home.
At our campsites, we generally take the dogs with us if circumstances allow. If not, the windows are closed, the airconditioner is on or a loud fan, plus the TV is on a normal sound level and the dogs have bark collars on and are in their kennel. We have never had a complaint that the dogs barked while we were gone. We even had someone say they didn't know we had dogs until they saw us walking them.
This summer we have had a few "run-ins" with neighbors who let their dogs run around their site and then charge and bark at ours as we take them for a walk or sit outside with them. My dogs are always on a leash if outside or in their Xpen. We never leave them outside, they are only out if we are out. Campground rules are there for a reason and I expect others to follow them same as me or I will say something.
Camper Chronicles said
04:56 PM Sep 9, 2014
We've had a lot of issues this year in our seasonal site and we can't just get up and move. I can't count how many nights we've been driven inside by excess noise. We have a yappy dog next door in our sticks and bricks and a VERY noisy dog
from us at the seasonal site. Let's just say I am looking forward to BLM lands with lots of space between rigs.
-- Edited by Lee and Trace on Sunday 14th of September 2014 06:32:16 AM
MarkS said
07:05 PM Sep 9, 2014
We have two small dogs who seldom bark, unless we are playing. The last time we took the fiver out a dog did his business sort of between our coach and the neighbors. We pick up after ours and also pick up whatever else is left for us. However, it was pretty obvious that the pile left was not from ours. It was from something much larger. We got blamed for it and that was ok. I'm not going to start something over something so petty. Besides, we didn't speak Spanish. I feel pretty certain that once we are full time I will become much crankier, at least I plan to. I absolutely adore dogs. I'm not near as crazy about humans, especially young ones. I ask a gentleman once what was it that caused him to approach us and strike up a conversation. I told him I was curious. Truth be told, I wanted to know what behavior to change. He said we looked friendly and normal. Maybe I should wear a tutu or dye my hair green or learn to belch the alphabet.
Dog Folks said
07:22 PM Sep 9, 2014
Vagabond: I read your posts carefully. I understand that you "detest" involving rangers, but that is the proper course of action for continual rule breakers.
Contact the campground host, if there is one, if not, the rangers. That is their job. They are used to it.
That is the system that is in place at most parks.
With respect, if you sit in silence and do not report, then you will suffer in silence.
Vagabond said
07:52 PM Sep 9, 2014
Thanks for the reply, perhaps I should have elaborated. I will certainly contact the manager, or ranger, if needed. I surely won't sit in silence :) Wreck my day, I'll fight back at escalating levels, starting with a polite, reasonable request. I like the no-bark gizmos, and likely will pick up a couple of those to try first. If I have to "Contact the man", I usually leave the scene shortly after. I do not trust people who don't respond to reason. If I've had to go as far as calling in help, or enforcement, they are not someone I want to be around. I would worry about vandalism, and retaliation from them. THAT is something that brings out my inner sociopath. (I usually leash and collar him, it's just a better world, that way)
I only titled the thread about dogs, as an example of bad behavior, that often spirals out of hand, (in my non-rv experience) People tend to get really, really defensive, and unreasonable when you question their pets' behavior. Almost as bad as their kids. I hate to say, I'd rather deal with a party next door. At least I could shmooze my way in and drink their beer, or throw them a sack of Washington's finest, and watch them pass out in 20 minutes :)
Regards, Kyle
soos said
11:20 PM Sep 9, 2014
whats worse to me is when there is a barking dog next door and two humans constantly yelling at it to shut up. Really? If the dog doesn't stop barking after the first 5 minutes of you yelling at it, I'm pretty sure the next 10 minutes of yelling isn't going to help.
I also have an issue with off leash dogs, since we have a cat that goes out on a leash. I usually warn the dog owner that my cat is fearless and WILL go after the dog if it approaches. One guy told me he wasn't worried, as his "puppy" never goes far. Well the guy got distracted, the puppy wandered on to our site and the cat started stalking it. Once the owner noticed, he grabbed the puppy and put him inside, telling him he had been about to get his a$$ whooped.
That one was funny but I don't appreciate having to be on constant lookout for loose dogs.
SnowGypsy said
06:10 AM Sep 10, 2014
I only wish I could say that "The Junkman" is wrong. We were out to the Corp of Engineers campgrounds. We luckily set-up in a really nice area and decided to drive around the other loops. It appeared that some people were living in the back of the loops. Yard dogs, tarps up and really old rundown units. I don't understand the deal there. Over the years, we ran across more than one park with permanent residents set up in the back in rundown trailers and motorhomes that probably had not ran in years. The other issue is who lives just outside the park that is hidden by the trees, bushes and privacy fence as you can have feral cats, junkyard dogs and five-finger discount shoppers that slip into the park. In private parks, management can hesitate to act on your complaints of rule breaking, even if extreme. It is bad when you are there for a season or limited to a certain area because of your job. The RV world for those retired is different than for those that are still working, must work in order to survive. The thing is that is a toss up between RV living and S/B because both have their share of positives and negatives thus our continuing tug to both lifestyles.
Apologies for changing the tone, as this really is a very serious matter. I've been fortunate not to have experienced it yet, but then again, I only just started out and this is my first real campground, which is a resort type place. I appreciate this discussion as it will prepare me for what I can potentially expect in the future.
-- Edited by cherylbrv on Wednesday 10th of September 2014 09:15:26 AM
Hdrider said
08:52 AM Sep 10, 2014
We have been on the road 2 years and I'm happy to say we have been very lucky in the parking by barking dogs area. Only a time or two. The last being about a month ago but we were only next to them a few days. I have seen FAR more dogs running off leash than anything else.
Glenn West said
08:57 AM Sep 10, 2014
We try to stay in small mom and pop rv parks. have never had a problem in this type of park. We don't get concrete but we prefer it that way. I'm yet to see concrete done right. A 3 axles camper cannot stay on concrete and they complain about your not staying on concrete. When we do stay at resorts we just "suck it up" and get out as soon as possible. I'll drive a little farther to work to get a decent park. We have 2 small dogs. They bark when inside and they hear "danger". We acknowledge and they quit. We did have to work with them though. Our neighbors loves our dogs.
-- Edited by Glenn West on Wednesday 10th of September 2014 09:01:22 AM
Vagabond said
09:06 AM Sep 10, 2014
Cheryl, no worries. A little humor does us all good.
Soos, Junkman, and SnowGypsy all have good points. Perhaps the whole topic of the thread was a metaphor, for the general degradation of society. As Junkman said "I've never seen it this bad". It really is heartbreaking. In my sticks and bricks world, people are visibly stressed. There is crazy stuff happening all around. A lot of it is financial, and a lot of it, in my opinion, is a total lack of direction, or meaningful goals. Sadly, most of the guys I know around here are living for the next "Big game", the next expensive toy, or just the next weekend, which they often return from looking more haggard then when they left.
A good friend and I were reminiscing over a twelve pack one night last summer. We were trying to figure out if the world had really changed, or if it was just the fact that we are getting a little older, and seeing it in a different light. We both remember listening to our Dads, when we were younger, and our Grandfathers as well, talking about how "Things have gone down hill, a bit" since they were young men. My friend had a question that stopped me in my tracks. He looked at me and asked "What are you proud of America for, TODAY?" "Forget Normandy Beach, forget the Apollo program, and forget all the other great things that belong to another generation, and just answer the question." I hate to admit, I didn't have one. I was speechless.
I find myself "Pregretting" (My word, feel free to steal it) spending time in groups of people. Movie theaters with noisy people and cell phones, inconsiderate neighbors, and sooo many people feeling like they need to make a "Statement" of some kind.
I remember camping a lot when I was little, all through the 70's and 80's. We stayed in campgrounds all over the western US and southwest Canada. I really can't remember any conflicts at all. Dad had the same expectations I do, for civil behavior from other people, and he believed in setting an example. There were very few dogs camping at all, as I recall, and even the folks having drinks around the fire were quieting down by the time it got dark in the summer. If I got too excited, and got a little loud while running around, I got corrected. "Kyle, knock that off NOW! There are other people here that want peace and quiet!" My parents meant it, and if I wanted to enjoy the rest of trip, there was no doubt I had better tame it down, and fast. If I had to be told twice, I was in deep! I didn't get 20 meaningless threats of a "Time out". I got a firm smack on the butt, or spent the rest of the night in our conversion van. I learned quick, and I don't feel scarred or have PTSD from it. I am grateful to my parents for their leadership.
Hopefully things will get better. All we can do, I suppose, is try to be good stewards of ourselves, and keep our fingers crossed that others follow. Confrontation, and regulation are a symptom of degradation. They weren't as necessary just 30 years ago, in my memory.
Treat your neighbors well!
Regards, Kyle
cherylbrv said
09:18 AM Sep 10, 2014
Beautifully, wonderfully written and stated, Kyle! Thanks.
Jack Mayer said
09:42 AM Sep 10, 2014
My observation in 14+ years fulltime is that it is about the same during all those years. It is not "getting worse". You will find places that are problems. You will find problems even in high end resorts; from time-to-time. But mostly the problems occur in "weekend" campgrounds - like forest service, or "party" locations. There you will find plenty of "I'll do what I want and I don't care about YOU" people. It has been that way - in SOME places - all the time we have been fulltiming.
Overall, I think society is far more "me, me, me" oriented than it was 20 years ago. An entire generation has been (mainly) raised that way, unfortunately. Not to get too political, but my observation is that it is "mainly" brought about by a twisted "liberal" attitude. This has been infused into our government regulations, and school and life in general. It may not be that "liberal" is the proper term, but I could not come up with anything else (I may need more coffee).
Steve, as far as the dog stuff goes I could not agree more. We have a dog and despite the fact that she is friendly to all she stays on the leash except where appropriate. Meaning dog parks, the campground when closed, or offlead training in a remote area. She "works" in the office and we allow any dog that is well behaved in the office. It is not a problem. BUT, I have seen issues in other campgrounds. I normally carry pepper spray with me when walking away from parks I know (like where we work in the summer). And I've used it before. I've seen some VERY aggressive dogs either loose or out of control. I would not have believed it until it happened to me.
Barbaraok said
10:03 AM Sep 10, 2014
Jack,
The word you are looking for is permissive. Parents no longer say 'no'. I can remember when my daughter was finishing the 8th grade and they had a program and dance for them at the middle school. She insisted that she had to have a prom dress! Well her mother said "no, your Easter dress will do just fine", she cried declaring she would be the only one, etc. Sure enough, all of her friends were in their Easter dresses, and as us mothers talked we all found out we were 'the only one' to say no. The few girls who parents gave in looked so awkward and out of place and had nothing to look forward to when they did get to high school and the time was right for prom dresses. Being a parent is hard work and most today just give in.
Vagabond,
There are a lot of things that we can be proud of, but often they are controversial and not appropriate for this forum. But a couple of things to thing about - I can remember when the riverfront burned in Cleveland, before we had regulations to help keep our rivers clean. Remember the LA smog - you don't hear much about that anymore. Remember when old people died shortly after they retired because they had no money for good medical care, I do - both grandfathers died of things that would be easily taken care of today.
Things change, that is the nature of life. Stagnation isn't good.
Barb
Jack Mayer said
10:32 AM Sep 10, 2014
Thank you Barb - that is indeed the word that is appropriate.....permissive.
Cindi said
11:27 AM Sep 10, 2014
I am highly allergic to animals and prefer some space between me and dogs. I do go to my seasonal campsite with my 3, 4 and 5 year old great grandsons almost every weekend. The 5 year old is also allergic to cats and dogs. We have the camper next door with the little dogs who "yap" continually anytime they are outside in their pen. Last weekend we had a camper across the road with a dog that charged us barking every time we left the RV. It was leashed but on a very long lead that allowed it across the road. Scared the heck out of us every time! I asked nicely that they shorten the leash, but it was not done.
My boys are well-behaved, polite to others and do not run loose in camp. We always have fun, but this Grandma knows how to say "NO". They might be loudly joyful at times, but never early or late in the day. When we walk thru camp or hike on the trails the 5 year old knows his job is to hold the hand of the 3 year old and the 4 year old holds my hand. When they are in our camp site or the playground, I am always with them. They never go through someone else's campsite and they remark on it if someone cuts through ours. Little children are not above pointing out if others are rude, especially if they are expected to be polite themselves.
The lady walking the two pit bulls who came into our campsite while we were all outside and argued with my boys that it was OK to pet them was the worse we have encountered by far. The boys all told her "no thank you" and came right over next to me without me saying anything to them. Our campground has a designated dog walking area with a covered container for the wastes they are expected to pick up. I have several times pointed out to people that the children's playground is not the place to walk their dogs, and every time the dog owner has told me that they intend to clean up after their dog. My boys play and roll around in that grass!!!!
Like others have stated, I try to talk nicely to the offenders as this is how I would prefer to be treated by others. Unfortunately I am instead forced to start being the "complainer to the owners".
Vagabond said
06:00 PM Sep 10, 2014
Thanks, Cheryl :)
HDrider, and Glenn West, those stories give me hope. Perhaps off the beaten path will be our best bet. I really prefer to be in smaller campgrounds, and I don't care one bit about clubhouses, tennis courts, or shuffleboard... Yet :) The kids like that stuff, so we will undoubtedly stay in a few, from time to time. Water, electric, and a place to dump the nasties are all I really want. Oh, and if I can place an order for no mosquitoes, to go, that would be nice too. Those are another one of my favorite peeves to pet.
Barbara, you are right on the pollution! I was sitting at a traffic light behind an old Chevy pickup that was running wayyy to rich. I forgot how it used to be, sitting in Seattle area traffic, growing up. Much, much better now. The only down side is, I could fix the stinky trucks! Now I just open the hood and look helpless, like everyone else.
Jack, I think you hit the nail on the head. Permissive, is definitely the term. A lack of learned accountability, and responsibility is not good for any of us.
Cindi, it sounds like Grandma is doing her job well! :) Too bad about the Pitbull encounter. I reach for my pistol when I see that breed. Zero use for them. I've met a few nice ones, but I no longer gamble, after a friend nearly lost her sight to one that was "People friendly".
Good grief, I am new here, and most of you must be picturing me walking around with my glass half empty. LOL. I just prefer to research negatives first, when I get excited about a new idea. It sounds odd, but it works for me. The positives are fun and easy, everybody likes those! The bad sides of things are too easy for me to mentally skip, and be surprised by later, so I eat my vegetables first.
Regards, Kyle
Terry and Jo said
10:08 PM Sep 10, 2014
I would like to take this opportunity to expound a little on the value of humanity and what is good about America. That is, if you all don't mind.
We lived most of our lives in Oklahoma and have long believed that Okies are some of the best people in the world. Here's an example.
April 19, 1995, two men (and perhaps more) blew up a Ryder truck outside the Alfred Murrah federal office building in Oklahoma City. Most of you likely remember the story of the lives lost, especially the children that were in the daycare center. What you might not have heard of was the response to that tragedy.
Search and rescue teams arrived in Oklahoma City from all over the country to help. A sheriff's office back east somewhere loaded up their B-B-Q cookers and smokers and drove to OKC to feed those search and rescue teams. There were even restaurants in OKC that refused the money of the rescuers.
If any member of one of those teams mentioned to a new reporter, or even just other normal people, that a particular item was needed for the rescue teams (and their dogs), the citizens of OKC responded with massive amounts of donations of those items. At one point, there was not a single dog bootie in the city, because the dog handlers were almost overwhelmed with the amount of booties. (I even saw one of those handlers with tears in his eyes, but I was afraid to ask if he was grateful for the generosity or sorrowful over all the horror that he and his dog had to endure.)
I used to speak badly of citizens of New York City because of their "attitude." But, I heard one day from a New York City resident that the employees of the World Trade Center buildings had big cards in their lobbies and the employees were signing those cards for the Oklahoma City residents. (If you remember, they had experienced a bombing in 1993 and wanted to share their concerns for us.)
Going beyond that, citizens all over America respond to calls of needs for children when they can't afford medical treatment, donations go to other countries after natural and human caused disasters, and when we bother to look around, there are probably a lot more good people than there are bad.
It's just that the "bad people" get all the news coverage. If any of you ever get the chance, go check out the Oklahoma City National Memorial. Sadly, even after all this time, I could never "make" myself go to see it.
Sorry for being on the "soapbox," but America is still a great place, in spite of all the negatives.
Terry
SnowGypsy said
05:58 AM Sep 11, 2014
I don't think anyone implied that America was the problem. The world has changed and not for the better. I think the biggest point to take from the thread is that the world of RVing is just as diverse, complicated and challenging as life in a S/B, different in many ways but you don't suddenly wake up in Nirvana once you leave S/B. We were first introduced to the lifestyle in AZ in 1990 and since we were RVers and full-timers both, we have experienced it. It is a toss up when you start weighing in on the positives and negatives and it is wise to do that. Ignorance is bliss is no way to make a lifestyle change. "I didn't realize".......................realize before you get to those words and be prepared in your own mind the strategies you'll be using. Imagine the worse case scenario, work through it in your head and then you are ready.
Jo and Ben said
06:28 AM Sep 11, 2014
We travel with our two dogs. They rarely bark, but if they were barking in the rig unbeknownst to us while we were not home, I would want to know about it. A previous dog of ours was a barker, and one day we came home to an anonymous (and somewhat threatening) note on our door. We would have liked to have known who the neighbor was (before they became that annoyed) so we could 1) apologize for the disturbance, and 2) find out if our attempts to stop further barking were successful. We are also very conscious of keeping our dogs leashed. In one RV park where we camped, while walking our dogs on leash, another camper's large dog was off leash and came running full speed toward us. The owner was shouting "the dog is friendly, the dog is friendly" but the dog wasn't friendly and attacked one of our dogs. As much as we love dogs, they are animals and have animal instincts. Any dog can become unfriendly under certain circumstances.
bjoyce said
08:34 AM Sep 11, 2014
"If any of you ever get the chance, go check out the Oklahoma City National Memorial. Sadly, even after all this time, I could never "make" myself go to see it."
Diane and I felt the same way. We visited the outside, then went off for lunch and could not face coming back to visit the inside. We lived in Eastern Washington during the militia and white supremacist times, which spilled out of the panhandle of Idaho into Washington. We had dealt with those people and found them uncomfortable, so the memorial showed us our discomfort was justified. The USA is a great place, but like everywhere else it has bad people. We can't let those bad people run our lives. I find bad people in all political parties and also wrapping themselves in various religions. They are not representative of everyone, but like to act like they are.
Back to the main subject. Our biggest problem with dogs is the ones that are off leash and the owners who want it that way. We take a cat out on a leash, and loose dogs are a big problem. Barking dogs are annoying, loose ones are dangerous. Owners of loose ones might be more dangerous.
BiggarView said
08:45 AM Sep 11, 2014
True, Bill. Loose dogs are a concern, "friendly" or not. Their owners are certainly being irresponsible. Vigilence and prudent precautions without being paranoid are always wise ideas. Even the best dog can be unpredictable, they respond differently than us supposedly rational humans do.
-- Edited by biggaRView on Thursday 11th of September 2014 08:45:42 AM
SnowGypsy said
08:57 AM Sep 11, 2014
We carry a stun gun when we walk. There are several different types anywhere from the first I got, a "knuckle blaster" that looks like brass knuckles but is black rubber with the electronics built into the rubber, easy to carry about $50.00 and I have a stun baton about 12 inches long or so with pointy sharp metal spikes and 4 "hot" spots and a flashlight on it. They even have stun canes which I thought were really cool since they look less like anything out of the usual. They are legal in most places. Cabelas and online suppliers carry a variety and the 4 we have are all "Zap". One issue that is hard to deal with are the kids that rush the dogs when we walk and I can't exactly Zap them. I tell them that the dogs could bite and, well, they could since they are dogs. I don't mind older people petting the dogs but the kids are too much for our senior dogs.
Lucky Mike said
09:46 AM Sep 11, 2014
I like jacks idea of carrying pepper spray or a repellent.......it allows you a safe distance from harm......as long as your not up wind!!
Lucky Mike said
02:44 PM Sep 11, 2014
Stun gun means you have to get up close and personal.........I prefer distance......not to many dogs can be outrun by a man with a cane......been there, done that and lost!!!!....of course been upwind of the pepper spray too!!!.....Im not sure whether the bite or the sting was worse!!!!
SnowGypsy said
03:09 PM Sep 11, 2014
Don't sell the stun gun short. We were charged by two loose pitbulls and I had my knuckle blaster. My husband didn't bring his. There would never have been time to run as time was moving very quickly as I saw them coming. The knuckle blaster was enough to discourage them and redirect them from the necks of my dogs several times until they finally went back to their yard when the owner came to the street. Often, just the sound of the static will discourage a dog from coming closer and the smaller ones have always took off for China after hearing the static. For me and maybe others, having the knuckle blaster already to go would be better than pepper spray ( mine probably wouldn't spray when I needed it), the new baton with the sharp metal protrusions would still be handy even if not discharged. I don't think there is ever one right answer.
Jack Mayer said
06:36 PM Sep 11, 2014
Snowgypsy, I agree there is not one answer. You need a continuum of force. And I have it.
Vagabond said
09:13 AM Sep 12, 2014
I worked in the gun business for 10 years, and managed to zap myself twice with stun guns, demonstrating them to customers. OMG, that hurts. Talk about a CTRL+ALT+DEL for the brain! One was the baton style, that looked like a Mag light. It had the probes on the end, but it also had two rings on the shaft, in case someone tried to grab it away. Well, I had demonstrated it a hundred times.... When I smacked it into my palm to show the nice lady how it worked as a club, I hit the button with my thumb, and the palm of my hand with the rings. I then hit the floor. Excellent demo. She bought one for her, and one for her daughter. :) They are very effective, but please be careful. Not only are they an up close and personal weapon, they do pack a punch!
Pepper foam has less backspray effect than a fogger style. I have been sprayed with pepper spray in a training class, and that memory will last a lifetime. Avoiding spraying yourself is important!
I will be getting my Utah concealed carry permit before hitting the road. It has reciprocity with most states, and only requires a short class, with no live fire required. You should be able to find a class in most states, that meets Utah's specific requirements. publicsafety.utah.gov/bci/FAQother.html
Those of you that carry a handgun, even if it's only your trailer, and not on your person, might do well to get this permit. I'm not a fan of giving anyone cause to haul me off to the clink. In the worst case, if you did need to defend yourself, having a valid permit gives your attorney a lot more to work with, as well.
Regards, Kyle
Terry and Jo said
10:11 AM Sep 12, 2014
Before considering any firearm for defense against animals (or humans), one should know the laws for the state where one is located or planning to travel. In some states, "deadly force" can only be used in certain circumstances. One really needs to know those circumstances. Also, some areas are listed as areas where carrying a weapon is not allowed.
Camping behind bars isn't likely to be very much fun.
Terry
Vagabond said
10:22 AM Sep 12, 2014
Terry and Jo wrote:
Before considering any firearm for defense against animals (or humans), one should know the laws for the state where one is located or planning to travel. In some states, "deadly force" can only be used in certain circumstances. One really needs to know those circumstances. Also, some areas are listed as areas where carrying a weapon is not allowed.
Camping behind bars isn't likely to be very much fun.
Terry
+1 Terry.
Research is very important. I also highly recommend live fire training, from a competent instructor. I have over 300 hours of handgun/rifle/tactical shotgun training, and I still feel like I could use more. Always learning! One of the best one-liners I took away from an instructor was simply "Nothing good ever leaves the muzzle of a gun." Truly the last option any sane human would want to use, and, literally, deadly serious. Your life will never be the same, but, you will be alive...
I always carry a firearm, but also pepper spray, and a good pair of tennis shoes. I will deploy the shoes before the spray, and hope like heck I never need the last option. No shame in running, and it is always justifiable in court. Hollywood has no relation to the real world. Running from an aggressive dog is not an option, however. Good use of pepper spray. Rover lives to fight another day, I stay out of hot water, and the owners who let it out get a peppery treat to enjoy :)
Regards, Kyle
Trikester said
11:04 AM Sep 12, 2014
As a bicyclist I keep pepper spray handy. But wasp spray would be better because it sprays 20+ feet, can be aimed, and won't blow back in your face. Effective. Only real problem is the big can. In the past I've found a water bottle squirt can also repel an aggressive canine.
-- Edited by Trikester on Friday 12th of September 2014 11:05:14 AM
Jack Mayer said
03:49 PM Sep 12, 2014
Comments:
Wasp spray is a terrible alternative to pepper spray. First, it is NOT intended for that use, and can blind a person or animal. You WILL be in court if that happens. Second, the better pepper sprays like the foaming ones do not blow back on you, or very minimally. Pepper spray can be had in long distance sprays...pretty much the same as wasp spray. Plus pepper spray is far more effective and faster acting. However, wasp spray is all the rage on the "Internet".
A UT concealed carry license may not be recognized in some states that would otherwise recognize it UNLESS you are a resident of UT. For example, CO will recognize other states concealed carry permits but ONLY if that is your home state. They require you to have a license from your state of domicile if you want to carry in CO. The same applies to FL, where it is also easy to get a permit. So be VERY aware of the laws. I recommend a home state license and then a complimentary one from a state like UT AZ or FL that is fairly easy to get. Just look at the coverage that extends your home state coverage...just depends on your state of domicile.
If you carry you need to shoot at LEAST once a month and you need to get training. Period, IMO. You also need to carry a less lethal alternative like pepper spray. If you carry you have responsibilities. Lots of them.
SnowGypsy said
08:00 PM Sep 13, 2014
Bottom line would be that ideas here can be introduced on ways to deal with people/dog issues and further research can be done before making the best choice for one's individual circumstances. I think everyone needs to understand what will be legal and/or needed according to the way they will live the RV lifestyle and make their own personal choices. Look at options, do research on the laws regarding your possible choices and then take on the responsibility for your choice(s). If one doesn't like the laws regarding their choice(s), the best bet is to work diligently to change those laws and that isn't done on a forum.
SnowGypsy said
05:59 AM Sep 14, 2014
The Junkman wrote:
Bottom line.. don't let the dogs off the leash.. and no harm will come to them.
Adding to your post: "unless it is from an unleashed dog or if you have one of the 20 ft. plus leashes where you actually have no control over your dog." I vote that the smarter of the two, owner or dog, wear the leash with a prone collar then I can just give the collar a jerk and really get the attention of the owner.
Camper Chronicles said
06:55 AM Sep 14, 2014
This thread kind of hits lots of topics so after reading it all here's my thoughts.
1. I love this country and still feel it is the best country in the world. Yes things have changed since 20 years ago but not all for the worst. Women have more opportunities, the internet has provided access to information we never had 20 years ago, and most people I know are still trying to live a good life and positively impact those around them.
2. I love dogs and agree the problem is with the owners not the dogs. I have escalated to the camp hosts once but agree this could lead to more problems. But because you can't always pick up and move I am going to have to figure out how to have those conversations in a productive way, because I refuse to continue to be stuck inside my RV to deal with the noise pollution. Last night the folks across the way had their music going really loud and again I was driven indoors. Haven't figured out the right way to address this but ignoring it isn't really working.
3. Thankfully I have not had to deal with aggressive animals of any kind ...yet...but it's rattling around in my brain. I am leaning towards a pellet gun but there are pros and cons to each potential solution so for now I keep my distance. Not a great solution but for right now the best I have come up with.
4. Finally, I have recognized that although I am camping as a lifestyle most people are not. They are using camping as a means of relaxing from their normal rule bound lives and so they aren't necessarily their best selves. Not that different than people who are totally nice in person being complete asses on the internet. Their is an anonymity in weekend camping that allows people to behave in ways they wouldn't if they knew they would have to see you . I have to say 5 days a week staying in one place has been absolutely great. It's mainly only on the weekends we have dealt with these issues. So maybe that is the price we have to pay...five great days for somewhat annoying weekends. We will see
Vagabond said
06:10 PM Sep 15, 2014
Thanks to all who responded. This was one thread that could easily have spun out on us, but everybody reigned it in, and I got some good ideas (And some hilarious ones), for dealing with irritating dogs. Sounds like it's a crapshoot, as it is in a neighborhood of stick built houses. I suspect I can better tolerate things like this on the road, where I can hook up and drive off. I can't exactly do that with my house!
See you out there, hopefully in late 2016!
Regards, Kyle
BiggarView said
07:47 AM Sep 16, 2014
After much consideration, I feel it necessary to add some additional comments based on an incident which happened to us only 2 days ago. Lee and Trace have accurately summed up my general sentiments however the issue is very complex and when it happens to you on the level that it just did to us there is some serious introspection that comes with the aftermath.
Irritating dogs are merely that. I can ignore them easily enough. Loose dogs are a terrifying real threat, not always and indeed I believe the odds are low, but it only takes one time, and therefore you need to involve rangers, camp hosts or even local authorities before it escalates into a disaster. If the owner of a loose dog suffers the irration of a nominal fine that is better than something more tragic. The embarassment of having to be lectured to rein in bratty kids or tone down a loud party is less than what happens in an irrational moment of rage. In our opinion you should have no qualms of turning the matter over, in a matter of fact way, to the appropriate authority and let them act as intermediary for the good of all, that is their job.
I'll post details of our incident later in another thread when we can collect our thoughts and can thoughtfully express them.
-- Edited by biggaRView on Wednesday 17th of September 2014 09:05:35 AM
I'm gonna tread really lightly here, as I know a lot of you are dog owners, and that you travel with your critters... That said, I really prefer not to camp next to dogs, if at all possible. I love them as much as the next guy, but my camping experiences vary from the snoozing Lab, that wouldn't bark if a squirrel tap danced on his back, to the yippie little rat dogs that bark endlessly. The former is great, the latter drives me insane. Obviously it's not the animal's fault, but rather the two legged companions.
We have never stayed in an "RV park", or resort. Just State park campgrounds. In your experiences, how much of a problem is this for you, and how did you deal with it? I've tried talking very politely to folks, and have had some success. I find it is often short lived. "Hush now fluffy, who's a good boy?" 2 hours later, back to square one. I absolutely detest involving Rangers, or park staff. It just seems it should be common courtesy. Just as I keep my stereo volume down, so you can't hear it ten feet from my rig. Expecting people to keep their animals quiet and controlled, or leave them at home does not seem unreasonable to me.
Just looking for opinions, and experiences. We have almost completely given up on in-season camping at State parks, here in Washington, due to the lack of respect from other campers. Not only dogs, but "Little Johnny" on his Dr. Seuss equipped Flamboozled tricycle riding around at all hours of the night.
Thoughts?
Regards, Kyle
Sounds fair to me.............
We will try to get a site next door to you :)
Kyle
I guess it all depends on your point of view......
Imagine to guy who sets up his tent in a beautiful state park..... in pulls a 40' RV.
Generator kicks on for the next 3 hours, the view is blocked by a 12' tall-40' long monster, the air conditioner drones on for the next 3 days, exhaust from the generator/furnace/hot water heater wafts into his tent and to top it off the satellite TV is blaring through the RV windows. There is no night time darkness because the RV is lit up like a lighthouse. And that outdoor TV was just what the tenter was hoping would fill his weekend.
There went his peaceful weekend..... thanks Mr. RV.
I guess it all depends on your point of view......
(For those who can't recognize a small attempt at humor, this is just my creative writing for the morning. I think I may be the guy in the RV.)
-- Edited by Russ Ranger on Tuesday 9th of September 2014 11:59:18 AM
Russ, I get that angle also. As an amateur astronomer, light pollution drives me nuts. I do, however, expect, and accept, a certain level of "Productive nuisance", if you will. Lights on, for the safety of those using the facility. I don't want someone falling down the stairs of their coach, just so I can catch a better glimpse of a galaxy. I don't begrudge someone running an AC unit, or generator, if they need it.
Letting rover bark in his pen, while they go out for a gourmet dinner in town, get my blood boiling. Letting little johnny run around at 10pm, making "Joyful noise", is on my major disrespect list, also.
Just trying to get a feel for how prevalent this is, in those that have been FT for awhile. Also looking for any unique ideas on how to deal with it. (Legal, of course:))
Regards, Kyle
All campgrounds have leash laws and tie out rules.......if the leash is not in your hand the dog is not under your control.......if the dog is in a pen it is not leashed or under your control.
I own (or should I say Blessed) with a dog , Nikki is NEVER tied out or penned....if she barks she is inside the coach and has a reason to bark to alert me.
of course alot of times I wonder why parks dont have leashes and pens for kids...(I had a couple of them too...)
We've been an inadvertent offender and offended. We've learned - the hard way - if we leave our pup in our 5er without the TV on, windows closed, and leave her alone she will bark. We came back after a lunch out to our state park site to find a note on our door. We were VERY apologetic and upset with ourselves but the host was correct to leave that note. We didn't do it again.
While at a very nice private park for a week in Texas a couple with 3 dogs moved in next to us. In that location we both shared a wide yard with picnic tables at either end. They were obviously a higher income couple and the lady was on crutches. They went out every day about the time we were returning. The dogs barked out the open window on our side all evening so we couldn't sit out and enjoy. They seemed like nice people and the next morning I went over and chatted with the man sitting outside mentioning he had quite a handful with his wife and three dogs. He agreed and said she usually walks the dogs. I mentioned they probably weren't aware of it but that their dogs barked the whole time they were gone. I said we'd be happy to help walk the dogs because he was outnumbered and we understood. He said they had bark collars "somewhere" but it has never happened before. I wondered about the collars but didn't say anything. Again stated we'd be happy to help. Also said we'd learned to leave the TV on and windows closed and that helped our dog.
Next day, same thing. So when they returned home I met them at their truck and said we'd had company and couldn't sit out and their dogs barked the whole time thru the window that was only open on our side. Third day same thing. The man became perturbed and the next day before they left he let all three dogs eliminate in our yard and didn't clean up. Jesse actually stepped in it.
We should have called the manager the first day, but like you we didn't want to be complainers and felt we'd handled it they way we would like someone to approach us.
So call the ranger or the manager. It's rude, inconsiderate dog or generator owners that annoy us but they are in the minority. Yesterday a woman parked right next to us brought her dog over to do his business in our yard! At least she cleaned up after it.
Sherry
I may be hypersensitive to this issue, after living next door to a virtual puppy mill for years, in my old neighborhood. She had a lawyer friend, and counted on the overworked people from the county to do nothing. Finally had to turn her in to the health department, when the rat infestation got bad enough. Good people lost serious money selling their neighboring homes because of her. I fully realize it could never get that bad in an RV, as I could simply hook and go. I'd just hate to get stuck in that situation for a month, if I have pre paid somewhere.
Keep em' rolling, if nothing else it's entertainment, and I have gotten two great suggestions so far!
Regards, Kyle
We have one of these also, I bought it as a preventive for our dogs at our old house. I have terriers, they tend to be alarm dogs, but I do whatever is necessary to keep their barking under control. I ended up using the bark stopper on the side of the house as our neighbor had a dog that would bark for hours and they never did a thing to stop it or bring it in the house, even though they were home.
At our campsites, we generally take the dogs with us if circumstances allow. If not, the windows are closed, the airconditioner is on or a loud fan, plus the TV is on a normal sound level and the dogs have bark collars on and are in their kennel. We have never had a complaint that the dogs barked while we were gone. We even had someone say they didn't know we had dogs until they saw us walking them.
This summer we have had a few "run-ins" with neighbors who let their dogs run around their site and then charge and bark at ours as we take them for a walk or sit outside with them. My dogs are always on a leash if outside or in their Xpen. We never leave them outside, they are only out if we are out. Campground rules are there for a reason and I expect others to follow them same as me or I will say something.
We've had a lot of issues this year in our seasonal site and we can't just get up and move. I can't count how many nights we've been driven inside by excess noise. We have a yappy dog next door in our sticks and bricks and a VERY noisy dog
from us at the seasonal site. Let's just say I am looking forward to BLM lands with lots of space between rigs.
-- Edited by Lee and Trace on Sunday 14th of September 2014 06:32:16 AM
Contact the campground host, if there is one, if not, the rangers. That is their job. They are used to it.
That is the system that is in place at most parks.
With respect, if you sit in silence and do not report, then you will suffer in silence.
Thanks for the reply, perhaps I should have elaborated. I will certainly contact the manager, or ranger, if needed. I surely won't sit in silence :) Wreck my day, I'll fight back at escalating levels, starting with a polite, reasonable request. I like the no-bark gizmos, and likely will pick up a couple of those to try first. If I have to "Contact the man", I usually leave the scene shortly after. I do not trust people who don't respond to reason. If I've had to go as far as calling in help, or enforcement, they are not someone I want to be around. I would worry about vandalism, and retaliation from them. THAT is something that brings out my inner sociopath. (I usually leash and collar him, it's just a better world, that way)
I only titled the thread about dogs, as an example of bad behavior, that often spirals out of hand, (in my non-rv experience) People tend to get really, really defensive, and unreasonable when you question their pets' behavior. Almost as bad as their kids. I hate to say, I'd rather deal with a party next door. At least I could shmooze my way in and drink their beer, or throw them a sack of Washington's finest, and watch them pass out in 20 minutes :)
Regards, Kyle
I also have an issue with off leash dogs, since we have a cat that goes out on a leash. I usually warn the dog owner that my cat is fearless and WILL go after the dog if it approaches. One guy told me he wasn't worried, as his "puppy" never goes far. Well the guy got distracted, the puppy wandered on to our site and the cat started stalking it. Once the owner noticed, he grabbed the puppy and put him inside, telling him he had been about to get his a$$ whooped.
That one was funny but I don't appreciate having to be on constant lookout for loose dogs.
I thought the reference in this thread to a dog being a squirrel dance floor was an expression or a metaphor. Until I saw this: www.facebook.com/video.php (here's a different link if that doesn't work: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTPOSdyA7Uo)
Apologies for changing the tone, as this really is a very serious matter. I've been fortunate not to have experienced it yet, but then again, I only just started out and this is my first real campground, which is a resort type place. I appreciate this discussion as it will prepare me for what I can potentially expect in the future.
-- Edited by cherylbrv on Wednesday 10th of September 2014 09:15:26 AM
We try to stay in small mom and pop rv parks. have never had a problem in this type of park. We don't get concrete but we prefer it that way. I'm yet to see concrete done right. A 3 axles camper cannot stay on concrete and they complain about your not staying on concrete. When we do stay at resorts we just "suck it up" and get out as soon as possible. I'll drive a little farther to work to get a decent park. We have 2 small dogs. They bark when inside and they hear "danger". We acknowledge and they quit. We did have to work with them though. Our neighbors loves our dogs.
-- Edited by Glenn West on Wednesday 10th of September 2014 09:01:22 AM
Cheryl, no worries. A little humor does us all good.
Soos, Junkman, and SnowGypsy all have good points. Perhaps the whole topic of the thread was a metaphor, for the general degradation of society. As Junkman said "I've never seen it this bad". It really is heartbreaking. In my sticks and bricks world, people are visibly stressed. There is crazy stuff happening all around. A lot of it is financial, and a lot of it, in my opinion, is a total lack of direction, or meaningful goals. Sadly, most of the guys I know around here are living for the next "Big game", the next expensive toy, or just the next weekend, which they often return from looking more haggard then when they left.
A good friend and I were reminiscing over a twelve pack one night last summer. We were trying to figure out if the world had really changed, or if it was just the fact that we are getting a little older, and seeing it in a different light. We both remember listening to our Dads, when we were younger, and our Grandfathers as well, talking about how "Things have gone down hill, a bit" since they were young men. My friend had a question that stopped me in my tracks. He looked at me and asked "What are you proud of America for, TODAY?" "Forget Normandy Beach, forget the Apollo program, and forget all the other great things that belong to another generation, and just answer the question." I hate to admit, I didn't have one. I was speechless.
I find myself "Pregretting" (My word, feel free to steal it) spending time in groups of people. Movie theaters with noisy people and cell phones, inconsiderate neighbors, and sooo many people feeling like they need to make a "Statement" of some kind.
I remember camping a lot when I was little, all through the 70's and 80's. We stayed in campgrounds all over the western US and southwest Canada. I really can't remember any conflicts at all. Dad had the same expectations I do, for civil behavior from other people, and he believed in setting an example. There were very few dogs camping at all, as I recall, and even the folks having drinks around the fire were quieting down by the time it got dark in the summer. If I got too excited, and got a little loud while running around, I got corrected. "Kyle, knock that off NOW! There are other people here that want peace and quiet!" My parents meant it, and if I wanted to enjoy the rest of trip, there was no doubt I had better tame it down, and fast. If I had to be told twice, I was in deep! I didn't get 20 meaningless threats of a "Time out". I got a firm smack on the butt, or spent the rest of the night in our conversion van. I learned quick, and I don't feel scarred or have PTSD from it. I am grateful to my parents for their leadership.
Hopefully things will get better. All we can do, I suppose, is try to be good stewards of ourselves, and keep our fingers crossed that others follow. Confrontation, and regulation are a symptom of degradation. They weren't as necessary just 30 years ago, in my memory.
Treat your neighbors well!
Regards, Kyle
Overall, I think society is far more "me, me, me" oriented than it was 20 years ago. An entire generation has been (mainly) raised that way, unfortunately. Not to get too political, but my observation is that it is "mainly" brought about by a twisted "liberal" attitude. This has been infused into our government regulations, and school and life in general. It may not be that "liberal" is the proper term, but I could not come up with anything else (I may need more coffee).
Steve, as far as the dog stuff goes I could not agree more. We have a dog and despite the fact that she is friendly to all she stays on the leash except where appropriate. Meaning dog parks, the campground when closed, or offlead training in a remote area. She "works" in the office and we allow any dog that is well behaved in the office. It is not a problem. BUT, I have seen issues in other campgrounds. I normally carry pepper spray with me when walking away from parks I know (like where we work in the summer). And I've used it before. I've seen some VERY aggressive dogs either loose or out of control. I would not have believed it until it happened to me.
The word you are looking for is permissive. Parents no longer say 'no'. I can remember when my daughter was finishing the 8th grade and they had a program and dance for them at the middle school. She insisted that she had to have a prom dress! Well her mother said "no, your Easter dress will do just fine", she cried declaring she would be the only one, etc. Sure enough, all of her friends were in their Easter dresses, and as us mothers talked we all found out we were 'the only one' to say no. The few girls who parents gave in looked so awkward and out of place and had nothing to look forward to when they did get to high school and the time was right for prom dresses. Being a parent is hard work and most today just give in.
Vagabond,
There are a lot of things that we can be proud of, but often they are controversial and not appropriate for this forum. But a couple of things to thing about - I can remember when the riverfront burned in Cleveland, before we had regulations to help keep our rivers clean. Remember the LA smog - you don't hear much about that anymore. Remember when old people died shortly after they retired because they had no money for good medical care, I do - both grandfathers died of things that would be easily taken care of today.
Things change, that is the nature of life. Stagnation isn't good.
Barb
My boys are well-behaved, polite to others and do not run loose in camp. We always have fun, but this Grandma knows how to say "NO". They might be loudly joyful at times, but never early or late in the day. When we walk thru camp or hike on the trails the 5 year old knows his job is to hold the hand of the 3 year old and the 4 year old holds my hand. When they are in our camp site or the playground, I am always with them. They never go through someone else's campsite and they remark on it if someone cuts through ours. Little children are not above pointing out if others are rude, especially if they are expected to be polite themselves.
The lady walking the two pit bulls who came into our campsite while we were all outside and argued with my boys that it was OK to pet them was the worse we have encountered by far. The boys all told her "no thank you" and came right over next to me without me saying anything to them. Our campground has a designated dog walking area with a covered container for the wastes they are expected to pick up. I have several times pointed out to people that the children's playground is not the place to walk their dogs, and every time the dog owner has told me that they intend to clean up after their dog. My boys play and roll around in that grass!!!!
Like others have stated, I try to talk nicely to the offenders as this is how I would prefer to be treated by others. Unfortunately I am instead forced to start being the "complainer to the owners".
HDrider, and Glenn West, those stories give me hope. Perhaps off the beaten path will be our best bet. I really prefer to be in smaller campgrounds, and I don't care one bit about clubhouses, tennis courts, or shuffleboard... Yet :) The kids like that stuff, so we will undoubtedly stay in a few, from time to time. Water, electric, and a place to dump the nasties are all I really want. Oh, and if I can place an order for no mosquitoes, to go, that would be nice too. Those are another one of my favorite peeves to pet.
Barbara, you are right on the pollution! I was sitting at a traffic light behind an old Chevy pickup that was running wayyy to rich. I forgot how it used to be, sitting in Seattle area traffic, growing up. Much, much better now. The only down side is, I could fix the stinky trucks! Now I just open the hood and look helpless, like everyone else.
Jack, I think you hit the nail on the head. Permissive, is definitely the term. A lack of learned accountability, and responsibility is not good for any of us.
Cindi, it sounds like Grandma is doing her job well! :) Too bad about the Pitbull encounter. I reach for my pistol when I see that breed. Zero use for them. I've met a few nice ones, but I no longer gamble, after a friend nearly lost her sight to one that was "People friendly".
Good grief, I am new here, and most of you must be picturing me walking around with my glass half empty. LOL. I just prefer to research negatives first, when I get excited about a new idea. It sounds odd, but it works for me. The positives are fun and easy, everybody likes those! The bad sides of things are too easy for me to mentally skip, and be surprised by later, so I eat my vegetables first.
Regards, Kyle
I would like to take this opportunity to expound a little on the value of humanity and what is good about America. That is, if you all don't mind.
We lived most of our lives in Oklahoma and have long believed that Okies are some of the best people in the world. Here's an example.
April 19, 1995, two men (and perhaps more) blew up a Ryder truck outside the Alfred Murrah federal office building in Oklahoma City. Most of you likely remember the story of the lives lost, especially the children that were in the daycare center. What you might not have heard of was the response to that tragedy.
Search and rescue teams arrived in Oklahoma City from all over the country to help. A sheriff's office back east somewhere loaded up their B-B-Q cookers and smokers and drove to OKC to feed those search and rescue teams. There were even restaurants in OKC that refused the money of the rescuers.
If any member of one of those teams mentioned to a new reporter, or even just other normal people, that a particular item was needed for the rescue teams (and their dogs), the citizens of OKC responded with massive amounts of donations of those items. At one point, there was not a single dog bootie in the city, because the dog handlers were almost overwhelmed with the amount of booties. (I even saw one of those handlers with tears in his eyes, but I was afraid to ask if he was grateful for the generosity or sorrowful over all the horror that he and his dog had to endure.)
I used to speak badly of citizens of New York City because of their "attitude." But, I heard one day from a New York City resident that the employees of the World Trade Center buildings had big cards in their lobbies and the employees were signing those cards for the Oklahoma City residents. (If you remember, they had experienced a bombing in 1993 and wanted to share their concerns for us.)
Going beyond that, citizens all over America respond to calls of needs for children when they can't afford medical treatment, donations go to other countries after natural and human caused disasters, and when we bother to look around, there are probably a lot more good people than there are bad.
It's just that the "bad people" get all the news coverage. If any of you ever get the chance, go check out the Oklahoma City National Memorial. Sadly, even after all this time, I could never "make" myself go to see it.
Sorry for being on the "soapbox," but America is still a great place, in spite of all the negatives.
Terry
Diane and I felt the same way. We visited the outside, then went off for lunch and could not face coming back to visit the inside. We lived in Eastern Washington during the militia and white supremacist times, which spilled out of the panhandle of Idaho into Washington. We had dealt with those people and found them uncomfortable, so the memorial showed us our discomfort was justified. The USA is a great place, but like everywhere else it has bad people. We can't let those bad people run our lives. I find bad people in all political parties and also wrapping themselves in various religions. They are not representative of everyone, but like to act like they are.
Back to the main subject. Our biggest problem with dogs is the ones that are off leash and the owners who want it that way. We take a cat out on a leash, and loose dogs are a big problem. Barking dogs are annoying, loose ones are dangerous. Owners of loose ones might be more dangerous.
True, Bill. Loose dogs are a concern, "friendly" or not. Their owners are certainly being irresponsible. Vigilence and prudent precautions without being paranoid are always wise ideas. Even the best dog can be unpredictable, they respond differently than us supposedly rational humans do.
-- Edited by biggaRView on Thursday 11th of September 2014 08:45:42 AM
We carry a stun gun when we walk. There are several different types anywhere from the first I got, a "knuckle blaster" that looks like brass knuckles but is black rubber with the electronics built into the rubber, easy to carry about $50.00 and I have a stun baton about 12 inches long or so with pointy sharp metal spikes and 4 "hot" spots and a flashlight on it. They even have stun canes which I thought were really cool since they look less like anything out of the usual. They are legal in most places. Cabelas and online suppliers carry a variety and the 4 we have are all "Zap". One issue that is hard to deal with are the kids that rush the dogs when we walk and I can't exactly Zap them. I tell them that the dogs could bite and, well, they could since they are dogs. I don't mind older people petting the dogs but the kids are too much for our senior dogs.
Pepper foam has less backspray effect than a fogger style. I have been sprayed with pepper spray in a training class, and that memory will last a lifetime. Avoiding spraying yourself is important!
I will be getting my Utah concealed carry permit before hitting the road. It has reciprocity with most states, and only requires a short class, with no live fire required. You should be able to find a class in most states, that meets Utah's specific requirements. publicsafety.utah.gov/bci/FAQother.html
Those of you that carry a handgun, even if it's only your trailer, and not on your person, might do well to get this permit. I'm not a fan of giving anyone cause to haul me off to the clink. In the worst case, if you did need to defend yourself, having a valid permit gives your attorney a lot more to work with, as well.
Regards, Kyle
Before considering any firearm for defense against animals (or humans), one should know the laws for the state where one is located or planning to travel. In some states, "deadly force" can only be used in certain circumstances. One really needs to know those circumstances. Also, some areas are listed as areas where carrying a weapon is not allowed.
Camping behind bars isn't likely to be very much fun.
Terry
+1 Terry.
Research is very important. I also highly recommend live fire training, from a competent instructor. I have over 300 hours of handgun/rifle/tactical shotgun training, and I still feel like I could use more. Always learning! One of the best one-liners I took away from an instructor was simply "Nothing good ever leaves the muzzle of a gun." Truly the last option any sane human would want to use, and, literally, deadly serious. Your life will never be the same, but, you will be alive...
I always carry a firearm, but also pepper spray, and a good pair of tennis shoes. I will deploy the shoes before the spray, and hope like heck I never need the last option. No shame in running, and it is always justifiable in court. Hollywood has no relation to the real world. Running from an aggressive dog is not an option, however. Good use of pepper spray. Rover lives to fight another day, I stay out of hot water, and the owners who let it out get a peppery treat to enjoy :)
Regards, Kyle
As a bicyclist I keep pepper spray handy. But wasp spray would be better because it sprays 20+ feet, can be aimed, and won't blow back in your face. Effective. Only real problem is the big can. In the past I've found a water bottle squirt can also repel an aggressive canine.
-- Edited by Trikester on Friday 12th of September 2014 11:05:14 AM
Wasp spray is a terrible alternative to pepper spray. First, it is NOT intended for that use, and can blind a person or animal. You WILL be in court if that happens. Second, the better pepper sprays like the foaming ones do not blow back on you, or very minimally. Pepper spray can be had in long distance sprays...pretty much the same as wasp spray. Plus pepper spray is far more effective and faster acting. However, wasp spray is all the rage on the "Internet".
A UT concealed carry license may not be recognized in some states that would otherwise recognize it UNLESS you are a resident of UT. For example, CO will recognize other states concealed carry permits but ONLY if that is your home state. They require you to have a license from your state of domicile if you want to carry in CO. The same applies to FL, where it is also easy to get a permit. So be VERY aware of the laws. I recommend a home state license and then a complimentary one from a state like UT AZ or FL that is fairly easy to get. Just look at the coverage that extends your home state coverage...just depends on your state of domicile.
If you carry you need to shoot at LEAST once a month and you need to get training. Period, IMO. You also need to carry a less lethal alternative like pepper spray. If you carry you have responsibilities. Lots of them.
Adding to your post: "unless it is from an unleashed dog or if you have one of the 20 ft. plus leashes where you actually have no control over your dog." I vote that the smarter of the two, owner or dog, wear the leash with a prone collar then I can just give the collar a jerk and really get the attention of the owner.
1. I love this country and still feel it is the best country in the world. Yes things have changed since 20 years ago but not all for the worst. Women have more opportunities, the internet has provided access to information we never had 20 years ago, and most people I know are still trying to live a good life and positively impact those around them.
2. I love dogs and agree the problem is with the owners not the dogs. I have escalated to the camp hosts once but agree this could lead to more problems. But because you can't always pick up and move I am going to have to figure out how to have those conversations in a productive way, because I refuse to continue to be stuck inside my RV to deal with the noise pollution. Last night the folks across the way had their music going really loud and again I was driven indoors. Haven't figured out the right way to address this but ignoring it isn't really working.
3. Thankfully I have not had to deal with aggressive animals of any kind ...yet...but it's rattling around in my brain. I am leaning towards a pellet gun but there are pros and cons to each potential solution so for now I keep my distance. Not a great solution but for right now the best I have come up with.
4. Finally, I have recognized that although I am camping as a lifestyle most people are not. They are using camping as a means of relaxing from their normal rule bound lives and so they aren't necessarily their best selves. Not that different than people who are totally nice in person being complete asses on the internet. Their is an anonymity in weekend camping that allows people to behave in ways they wouldn't if they knew they would have to see you . I have to say 5 days a week staying in one place has been absolutely great. It's mainly only on the weekends we have dealt with these issues. So maybe that is the price we have to pay...five great days for somewhat annoying weekends. We will see
See you out there, hopefully in late 2016!
Regards, Kyle
After much consideration, I feel it necessary to add some additional comments based on an incident which happened to us only 2 days ago. Lee and Trace have accurately summed up my general sentiments however the issue is very complex and when it happens to you on the level that it just did to us there is some serious introspection that comes with the aftermath.
Irritating dogs are merely that. I can ignore them easily enough. Loose dogs are a terrifying real threat, not always and indeed I believe the odds are low, but it only takes one time, and therefore you need to involve rangers, camp hosts or even local authorities before it escalates into a disaster. If the owner of a loose dog suffers the irration of a nominal fine that is better than something more tragic. The embarassment of having to be lectured to rein in bratty kids or tone down a loud party is less than what happens in an irrational moment of rage. In our opinion you should have no qualms of turning the matter over, in a matter of fact way, to the appropriate authority and let them act as intermediary for the good of all, that is their job.
I'll post details of our incident later in another thread when we can collect our thoughts and can thoughtfully express them.
-- Edited by biggaRView on Wednesday 17th of September 2014 09:05:35 AM