I'm not sure whether to be happy or upset about this, though. The unit is designed to shut power off to the RV whenever there's an anomaly in the voltage. From about 8pm last night until 2 pm this afternoon, the power kept going off. There were a few times when it stayed on for 10 minutes or so, but for the most part, every time it tried to reset (every 2 minutes), it stayed off.
We brought this to the attention of management and they confirmed that the voltage was 106 and 92. Too many people using a lot of power at the same time. Still, with the weather center thermometer reading 107, it was not a good day to be without power.
I wonder whether this is something normal in busy campgrounds over a holiday weekend, or did we just choose the wrong place to stay, as they need to upgrade their power system?
bjoyce said
08:26 PM Aug 30, 2014
Unfortunately, it is common when it is hot and campgrounds are full. You can add a voltage booster/autoformer to boost the voltage. The best one I know is http://www.powermasterrv.com/products.html.
GENECOP said
08:42 PM Aug 30, 2014
bjoyce wrote:
Unfortunately, it is common when it is hot and campgrounds are full. You can add a voltage booster/autoformer to boost the voltage. The best one I know is http://www.powermasterrv.com/products.html.
Bill it looks like that unit does Surge Protection as well....so would it not be better to use this instead of a Progressive Surge protector? Also do they make a hardwired unit instead of Plug and play? Thanks....
cheryls-other-half said
08:57 PM Aug 30, 2014
GENECOP wrote:
bjoyce wrote:
Unfortunately, it is common when it is hot and campgrounds are full. You can add a voltage booster/autoformer to boost the voltage. The best one I know is http://www.powermasterrv.com/products.html.
Bill it looks like that unit does Surge Protection as well....so would it not be better to use this instead of a Progressive Surge protector? Also do they make a hardwired unit instead of Plug and play? Thanks....
I too, just read the manual, and there is a hardwired kit that will mount inside of your rv so you connect to that box instead.
Also, agreed, it DOES do surge protection, We already have a surge guard 50Amp hardwired surge protector. I wish I could take the surge guard, sell it, and install the power-master50amp.
oh well. at least we know it works VERY well!
Now to buy the remote display, so we can view results INSIDE the comfort of our hot little home..
bjoyce said
09:11 PM Aug 30, 2014
These types of devices do not monitor reversed polarity, etc, like the good Progressive does. We have a Progressive and it is much, much lighter in weight and smaller. Our Hughes Autoformer, http://www.pplmotorhomes.com/parts/rv-power-cords/hughes-autoformer-kit.htm died after about 6 to 7 years, so I have been thinking about getting a replacement. I will probably wait until we hit a campground that needs it.
cheryls-other-half said
09:21 PM Aug 30, 2014
Bill: "These devices", meaning the power booster, or the Surge guard? (my surge guard Does monitor reverse polarity,etc, even though I dont have the remote display yet...
bjoyce said
09:09 AM Aug 31, 2014
I meant autoformers/voltage boosters since all they do is boost volts when needed and maybe do some surge suppression.
Some people save and buy the 30AMP units, since that is where we commonly see the voltage problem. But, as you are seeing where you are at, it can and does happen with 50AMP.
If you get one, realize that some campground owners and some "electricians" don't understand them and make really strange comments about them and sometimes "ban" them. The engineering to change voltage is common, basically the same as an MPPT solar charge controller, and those big transformers in every campground. But, still some think they "steal electricity" and other really odd ideas. It is better to have it in a bay, so they don't see the box.
The boost transformer would be good for your appliances. To boost the voltage though you are going to increase the amp draw, compounding the overloading problem for the others at the campground. I guess those with out the boost transformer might not look at it to kindly. That would be the only reason I could see why anyone would not like to see them.
Mark
Bill and Linda said
03:13 PM Aug 31, 2014
GENECOP wrote:
bjoyce wrote:
Unfortunately, it is common when it is hot and campgrounds are full. You can add a voltage booster/autoformer to boost the voltage. The best one I know is http://www.powermasterrv.com/products.html.
Bill it looks like that unit does Surge Protection as well....so would it not be better to use this instead of a Progressive Surge protector? Also do they make a hardwired unit instead of Plug and play? Thanks....
Actually, Gene, it wouldn’t.As BillJ said, you need the capabilities of the Progressive Industries to protect the trailer from high and low power and a lot of other bad electrical things common to campgrounds.The use of a true boost transformer or properly engineered Autoformer would need to go before the Progressive Industries unit so voltage would be increased above the 103 danger point.BTW, if a true boost transformer or Autofomer is used, like the Hughes, increasing voltage does not increase amp draw.It reduces it.Power = volts x amps.Take volts up – amps go down IF using a boost transformer.It does not take more “power” from the park.It is specific to what I said, a step up or a true Autoformer.Not other voltage regulating devices.
I would suggest, FWIW, one forget about surge protection and concentrate on power protection.You can have all the “surge protection” devices you want.But you need something like the PI HW50C to protect the rig from power and surge issues.It does both. I see more "power" and wiring issues than I do "surge" issues - most of which come from lightening.
Bill and Linda said
03:23 PM Aug 31, 2014
I’ll make this separate post and if anyone follows it great.If not, just forget about it.
Here is a procedure that is perfectly safe.IF you have low voltage on one leg – like 96 volts on one leg and say 110 on the other in a 50 amp park, try using your 50 to 30 amp adapter and plug into the 30 amp plug. (You would know about these voltages BTW if you had a PI HW50C with the little read out to tell you.)Sometimes, if you lucky, the 30 amp receptacle will be on the higher voltage side.If that’s the case, and you have power the protection of the HW50C, you can turn off all the things you don’t need, put the fridge on gas, and maybe there will be just enough power to run one AC unit and the voltage will stay above 103; or run whatever you want so long as you don’t trip a breaker or drop the voltage below 103. But if the voltage should dip the PI will cut the power and protect the AC unit.Did this a month ago when we had one low leg that never came up to 103.Done it many times.That little read out on the PI is very useful as we’ve posted many times.
cherylbrv said
03:54 PM Aug 31, 2014
Interesting idea, Bill & Linda. Maybe we'll try that. So far so good today, though.
bigboomer said
04:09 PM Aug 31, 2014
Cheryl, We had a similar issue last summer when the CG we were working at in Florida, NY had very poor voltage when it was full and everyone was running their air. Our Progressive EMS kept kicking out with readings of 100 volts and less. We reluctantly purchased the Hughes 50 AMP Autoformer and plugged it in at the pedestal and it solved the issues. It did not draw any additional electric. Basically it did what the CG needed to do and add more transformers along the line. The CG eventually admitted as much and gave us some credit on our bill to compensate having to spend the money on the Hughes. Now we are glad we have it just in case. The Progressive EMS is a lifesaver otherwise we could and would have fried a lot of the appliances with the low voltage.
-- Edited by bigboomer on Monday 1st of September 2014 05:55:42 AM
GENECOP said
06:21 PM Aug 31, 2014
Sorry I am a little dense in deciphering all the information and choices....I guess my main question is for the perfect setup do I need to purchase both the PI and the Autoformer? Or is there one item out there that will do everything...Thanks....
bigboomer said
06:03 AM Sep 1, 2014
Gene,
Technically the Hughes Autoformer offers both low voltage and spike and surge protection so if you do not already have the PI EMS you could just get the HAF and that would do the job. We already had the PI which alerted us to the problem in the first place. If you go with the HAF then you should plug that into the pedestal first and it will automatically tell you if there is an issue. With the PI when we plug into the pedestal it tells us what the volts are coming into the unit immediately as well and if there is an issue I can then plug the HAF in before use any of the appliances.
Bill and Linda said
06:32 AM Sep 1, 2014
GENECOP wrote:
Sorry I am a little dense in deciphering all the information and choices....I guess my main question is for the perfect setup do I need to purchase both the PI and the Autoformer? Or is there one item out there that will do everything...Thanks....
Gene:
There is not one item – but two will do it the best, IMO.
From my perspective and experience in a lot of different campgrounds – as you know we travel a lot relative to others – the Progressive Industries HW50C – hard wired with the read out in the coach – is all that is needed 98% of the time. It protects the coach from:
High voltage – Low Voltage – reverse polarity – open neutral – open ground – power line frequency – 240 volt protection – and finally true surge protectionbetween all lines, neutral and ground. Note surge protection is not high or low voltage as such.“Surge protectors” don’t do all this and are, IMO, totally inadequate to protect the rig.The PI also has a timer to prevent power being restored too quickly.That’s also a very big deal but another explanation.
The PI should, IMO, be wired in on the power cable coming from the park plug and before the generator change over switch if there is a change over switch in the coach. (You may have one even if you don’t have a generator.) That way the PI will protect that switch as well.Blow up the change over switch and you have no power, period – including from the generator.
Depending on camping location(s) having a good Autoformer / step up transformer is not a bad idea.I’ve never carried one just because I’ve always been able to manage our power well enough to get by.There are safe and legal “tricks” to do this.But if one is going to travel or resides for a long time in a park where low voltage is an issue – and they will let you use it – then yes, I’d get one of these.BTW, if I were going to use an Autoformer mine would probably be mounted in the coach with a bypass so such that it was never outside to be seen or stolen.That eliminates a lot of questions and problems from those who don’t understand I’m not steeling power from them.
Beyond these two devices the other items – like the “EMS” system put in some coaches – for me - are simply one more thing to go bad and actually limit my flexibility with power use.But that’s me as I like to have full control of my electrical system and don’t want something shutting down the electric hot water heater or the bedroom AC, for example, just because I am using 30 amps. That’s not always necessary. I’ve run two AC’s on 30amps before.It can be done in some cases.It depends.
Hope that helps a bit as to what I am suggesting: one device, the PI, and maybe an Autofomer.That’s it.
Bill
Bill and Linda said
06:40 AM Sep 1, 2014
bigboomer wrote:
Gene,
Technically the Hughes Autoformer offers both low voltage and spike and surge protection so if you do not already have the PI EMS you could just get the HAF and that would do the job.
Les:
The “technically” part is where we run into some trouble, IMO, and the confusion comes in the discussion.True the HAF will do some protecting from high and low voltage, etc. but not like the PI.Some could get the impression, maybe, that with the Autoformer they don’t need the PI and they really do.So that’s why I tend to suggest the PI as “the box” and if you want / need an Autoformer, like the HAF, that’s fine and “more better.”But I don’t try to present the HAF or like boxes as a protection devices due to their limitations. They only protect some from some bad things, not all.I hope you see my point.
On edit I wanted to mention - Still love that truck of yours. Still going strong long after we saw it in Tampa. Very cool!
Bill
-- Edited by Bill and Linda on Monday 1st of September 2014 06:42:32 AM
bigboomer said
06:49 AM Sep 1, 2014
Bill,
Certainly do see your point. I agree if you can afford to do both it is the best way to go no doubt as the PI has the advanced surge protection you need to protect the rig along with the voltage protection of the HAF.
bigboomer said
06:55 AM Sep 1, 2014
Btw..thanks on the truck Bill and I have to say the PI EMS has saved us several times already. Nice to be able to see the read out as to what volts are coming in and how it changes when the various appliances are used. Gives you a real idea of how the energy flows for each circuit.
LifeBeganInaWinnebago said
05:01 PM Sep 2, 2014
Autoformers raise the voltage to your RV. And Yes as the Voltage is raised the current goes down. So the power consumed by your RV stays the same except for the added load of the transformer. Transformers use energy, they create heat and heat is energy. Now you have the load of the RV and the load of the transformer on the already overloaded park supply. What does that do to the park supply? Yep, the added load just further reduces the supply voltage. And as we well know when the voltage goes down the current goes up. Now the park supply is even more overloaded than it was before. If enough autoformers are use the park supply voltage will drop so low the autoformers will no longer function or the current will be so high it will trip breakers. I think the autoformers are great to have to protect your RV, but not the fix for an overloaded park supply.
I'm not sure whether to be happy or upset about this, though. The unit is designed to shut power off to the RV whenever there's an anomaly in the voltage. From about 8pm last night until 2 pm this afternoon, the power kept going off. There were a few times when it stayed on for 10 minutes or so, but for the most part, every time it tried to reset (every 2 minutes), it stayed off.
We brought this to the attention of management and they confirmed that the voltage was 106 and 92. Too many people using a lot of power at the same time. Still, with the weather center thermometer reading 107, it was not a good day to be without power.
I wonder whether this is something normal in busy campgrounds over a holiday weekend, or did we just choose the wrong place to stay, as they need to upgrade their power system?
Unfortunately, it is common when it is hot and campgrounds are full. You can add a voltage booster/autoformer to boost the voltage. The best one I know is http://www.powermasterrv.com/products.html.
Bill it looks like that unit does Surge Protection as well....so would it not be better to use this instead of a Progressive Surge protector? Also do they make a hardwired unit instead of Plug and play? Thanks....
I too, just read the manual, and there is a hardwired kit that will mount inside of your rv so you connect to that box instead.
Also, agreed, it DOES do surge protection, We already have a surge guard 50Amp hardwired surge protector. I wish I could take the surge guard, sell it, and install the power-master50amp.
oh well. at least we know it works VERY well!
Now to buy the remote display, so we can view results INSIDE the comfort of our hot little home..
These types of devices do not monitor reversed polarity, etc, like the good Progressive does. We have a Progressive and it is much, much lighter in weight and smaller. Our Hughes Autoformer, http://www.pplmotorhomes.com/parts/rv-power-cords/hughes-autoformer-kit.htm died after about 6 to 7 years, so I have been thinking about getting a replacement. I will probably wait until we hit a campground that needs it.
Bill: "These devices", meaning the power booster, or the Surge guard? (my surge guard Does monitor reverse polarity,etc, even though I dont have the remote display yet...
I meant autoformers/voltage boosters since all they do is boost volts when needed and maybe do some surge suppression.
Some people save and buy the 30AMP units, since that is where we commonly see the voltage problem. But, as you are seeing where you are at, it can and does happen with 50AMP.
If you get one, realize that some campground owners and some "electricians" don't understand them and make really strange comments about them and sometimes "ban" them. The engineering to change voltage is common, basically the same as an MPPT solar charge controller, and those big transformers in every campground. But, still some think they "steal electricity" and other really odd ideas. It is better to have it in a bay, so they don't see the box.
BTW: I hate Surge Guard's version, it is awkwardly shaped, bright yellow, hard to keep in a bay and expensive - http://tweetys.com/surge-guard-regulators.aspx.
The boost transformer would be good for your appliances. To boost the voltage though you are going to increase the amp draw, compounding the overloading problem for the others at the campground. I guess those with out the boost transformer might not look at it to kindly. That would be the only reason I could see why anyone would not like to see them.
Mark
Actually, Gene, it wouldn’t. As BillJ said, you need the capabilities of the Progressive Industries to protect the trailer from high and low power and a lot of other bad electrical things common to campgrounds. The use of a true boost transformer or properly engineered Autoformer would need to go before the Progressive Industries unit so voltage would be increased above the 103 danger point. BTW, if a true boost transformer or Autofomer is used, like the Hughes, increasing voltage does not increase amp draw. It reduces it. Power = volts x amps. Take volts up – amps go down IF using a boost transformer. It does not take more “power” from the park. It is specific to what I said, a step up or a true Autoformer. Not other voltage regulating devices.
I would suggest, FWIW, one forget about surge protection and concentrate on power protection. You can have all the “surge protection” devices you want. But you need something like the PI HW50C to protect the rig from power and surge issues. It does both. I see more "power" and wiring issues than I do "surge" issues - most of which come from lightening.
I’ll make this separate post and if anyone follows it great. If not, just forget about it.
Here is a procedure that is perfectly safe. IF you have low voltage on one leg – like 96 volts on one leg and say 110 on the other in a 50 amp park, try using your 50 to 30 amp adapter and plug into the 30 amp plug. (You would know about these voltages BTW if you had a PI HW50C with the little read out to tell you.) Sometimes, if you lucky, the 30 amp receptacle will be on the higher voltage side. If that’s the case, and you have power the protection of the HW50C, you can turn off all the things you don’t need, put the fridge on gas, and maybe there will be just enough power to run one AC unit and the voltage will stay above 103; or run whatever you want so long as you don’t trip a breaker or drop the voltage below 103. But if the voltage should dip the PI will cut the power and protect the AC unit. Did this a month ago when we had one low leg that never came up to 103. Done it many times. That little read out on the PI is very useful as we’ve posted many times.
Cheryl, We had a similar issue last summer when the CG we were working at in Florida, NY had very poor voltage when it was full and everyone was running their air. Our Progressive EMS kept kicking out with readings of 100 volts and less. We reluctantly purchased the Hughes 50 AMP Autoformer and plugged it in at the pedestal and it solved the issues. It did not draw any additional electric. Basically it did what the CG needed to do and add more transformers along the line. The CG eventually admitted as much and gave us some credit on our bill to compensate having to spend the money on the Hughes. Now we are glad we have it just in case. The Progressive EMS is a lifesaver otherwise we could and would have fried a lot of the appliances with the low voltage.
-- Edited by bigboomer on Monday 1st of September 2014 05:55:42 AM
Gene,
Technically the Hughes Autoformer offers both low voltage and spike and surge protection so if you do not already have the PI EMS you could just get the HAF and that would do the job. We already had the PI which alerted us to the problem in the first place. If you go with the HAF then you should plug that into the pedestal first and it will automatically tell you if there is an issue. With the PI when we plug into the pedestal it tells us what the volts are coming into the unit immediately as well and if there is an issue I can then plug the HAF in before use any of the appliances.
Gene:
There is not one item – but two will do it the best, IMO.
From my perspective and experience in a lot of different campgrounds – as you know we travel a lot relative to others – the Progressive Industries HW50C – hard wired with the read out in the coach – is all that is needed 98% of the time. It protects the coach from:
High voltage – Low Voltage – reverse polarity – open neutral – open ground – power line frequency – 240 volt protection – and finally true surge protectionbetween all lines, neutral and ground. Note surge protection is not high or low voltage as such. “Surge protectors” don’t do all this and are, IMO, totally inadequate to protect the rig. The PI also has a timer to prevent power being restored too quickly. That’s also a very big deal but another explanation.
The PI should, IMO, be wired in on the power cable coming from the park plug and before the generator change over switch if there is a change over switch in the coach. (You may have one even if you don’t have a generator.) That way the PI will protect that switch as well. Blow up the change over switch and you have no power, period – including from the generator.
Depending on camping location(s) having a good Autoformer / step up transformer is not a bad idea. I’ve never carried one just because I’ve always been able to manage our power well enough to get by. There are safe and legal “tricks” to do this. But if one is going to travel or resides for a long time in a park where low voltage is an issue – and they will let you use it – then yes, I’d get one of these. BTW, if I were going to use an Autoformer mine would probably be mounted in the coach with a bypass so such that it was never outside to be seen or stolen. That eliminates a lot of questions and problems from those who don’t understand I’m not steeling power from them.
Beyond these two devices the other items – like the “EMS” system put in some coaches – for me - are simply one more thing to go bad and actually limit my flexibility with power use. But that’s me as I like to have full control of my electrical system and don’t want something shutting down the electric hot water heater or the bedroom AC, for example, just because I am using 30 amps. That’s not always necessary. I’ve run two AC’s on 30amps before. It can be done in some cases. It depends.
Hope that helps a bit as to what I am suggesting: one device, the PI, and maybe an Autofomer. That’s it.
Bill
Les:
The “technically” part is where we run into some trouble, IMO, and the confusion comes in the discussion. True the HAF will do some protecting from high and low voltage, etc. but not like the PI. Some could get the impression, maybe, that with the Autoformer they don’t need the PI and they really do. So that’s why I tend to suggest the PI as “the box” and if you want / need an Autoformer, like the HAF, that’s fine and “more better.” But I don’t try to present the HAF or like boxes as a protection devices due to their limitations. They only protect some from some bad things, not all. I hope you see my point.
On edit I wanted to mention - Still love that truck of yours. Still going strong long after we saw it in Tampa. Very cool!
Bill
-- Edited by Bill and Linda on Monday 1st of September 2014 06:42:32 AM
Autoformers raise the voltage to your RV. And Yes as the Voltage is raised the current goes down. So the power consumed by your RV stays the same except for the added load of the transformer. Transformers use energy, they create heat and heat is energy. Now you have the load of the RV and the load of the transformer on the already overloaded park supply. What does that do to the park supply? Yep, the added load just further reduces the supply voltage. And as we well know when the voltage goes down the current goes up. Now the park supply is even more overloaded than it was before. If enough autoformers are use the park supply voltage will drop so low the autoformers will no longer function or the current will be so high it will trip breakers.
I think the autoformers are great to have to protect your RV, but not the fix for an overloaded park supply.
Mark