We are in the early investigating phase of RV Dreaming. We were wondering if we plan to pull a heavier fifth wheel, such as a New Horizons or DRV, which would you recommend? We are leaning toward a Ram 5500 and were wondering for towing considerations which would be better?

Thanks

Ran

Hi Ran, welcome.

There are those that believe 4WD is unnecessary.  I’m not one of them and here's why.  But, it depends.

First, 4WD has little to nothing to do with towing as such.  It isn’t used when on a highway or the like as you may know.  It is used, mostly, in a campground after it has rained and you have trouble backing up due to mud or for that matter going up and around that little pile of gravel that is on an incline and the rear wheels start sipping.  I’ve used 4WD mostly in what I would call “commercial” campgrounds that were very nice except for that gravel, sand or mud from a hard rain.  It’s like a spare tire, you don’t need it till you do, and then you need it real bad.

Having said that, if your purchase a larger MDT (Freightliner type) or an HDT few have 4WD.  Some HN’s and a few DRV’s really need MDT / HDT trucks.  But most of even the larger NH can be handled with trucks such as the RAM 5500.  Those are available with 4WD and I recommend it highly.  If you are purchasing new the cost and weight issue is pretty minor in the big picture as a percentage.  Used it might actually be hard to find a 2WD RAM 5500HD.

FWIW, I’ve driven RAM 5500HD’s and they are a great truck and have an excellent exhaust brake.  Very important item.  I do recommend full air ride on the rear IF you are going to use it for solo touring.  They have plenty of capacity especially on the rear axle where most trucks come up short and is actually the limiting factor.

So the opinion from one who travels a great deal and uses the truck a lot towing, I recommend 4WD.

Bill

Bill and Linda wrote:

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There are those that believe 4WD is unnecessary....

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 I have to confess I was one of those. Then I went to being on the fence after observing something similar to what Bill mentioned, from then until this past weekend I couldn't make up my mind. On our current road trip I took the time to pay attention to actual campsites and the ease of access issues that came with them with an eye toward "what could go wrong".  The campground we were in (tent camping) had several rigs but none were on tough to get into sites.  My thought was when this place fills up the poor saps that take some of the more hilly sites with gravel and sandy sites would have issues getting in and now, in retrospect, Bill's additional comments that relate to that confirmed what I had suddenly come to suspect. When we get to the tow vehicle purchase phase of our countdown we will be looking at only 4x4.

FWIW

-- Edited by biggaRView on Thursday 5th of June 2014 10:13:31 AM

Had little choice because 4x2 are few and far between dealers these days.  Hopefully I won't be so foolish to get into a predicament that I would have never considered if I had a 4x2 but temptation to push your luck is often a formidable enemy.

I'm new and learning...

IF you went with DRV you would not need such a big truck, and it can be your daily driver.

I have a New 2013 ram 3500 capable of pulling 28k , with with a pin weight of almost 6k. The 4wd does add weight capacity, as does many of the options.. so look closely at the specs.. rear ratio, trans, crew cab vs reg etc...

Just got a estimated specs on the DRV 43' MS loaded..

GVWR: 23,000#
Total weight: 20,590#
Driver side: front- 3020#, middle- 2970#, rear 2860#
Pass. Side: front- 3030#, middle 2640#, rear 2560#
Pin weight 3430#
Carrying capacity 2410#

Easily pulled and by the RAM 3500.. No problem. Why go bigger?

I think as long as you have the disc brakes on the trailer.. this is good set up..

If you Go NH.. I hear the weight could be almost 29k? Different ball game.. Now you must get a big truck or Tractor Trailer.

I know as a professional Jeep rock crawler, pulling 10k in the mud.. I used 4wd often.. in the NE.

Just my .02.. ( did i say anything to get this post deleted?, as so many of mine do )

Edit.. You may mind this info useful..

2013 ram http://blogs.cars.com/files/2013-ram-hd-25003500-charts.pdf

2008 ford f450  http://www.fleet.ford.com/resources/ford/general/pdf/towingguides/08RVTTgdeSep08.pdf

My Crew cab / long box / 4x4 / longhorn / DRW .. W/ 4.10 rears and the HD tranny 

RAM 37500 GCWR  2008 f450 = 23000 !

RAM 15750 GAWR  2008 f450 = 13000

RAM 28,910 max trailer weight - 2008 f450 = 18100 !!!

RAM 8421 truck weight

RAM 9750 max on the rear. .. leaving about 6400 capacity for trailer tongue weight after- rear truck weight..( pin weight is #3430)

Some say not to trust the manufacture certifications, testing, warranty etc.. Sorry, but I put more trust in Ram, Than a person on any forum. .. That's just me though.

And I'm sure you can pull a shorter New Horizons.. But my post is for a 43 footer.. And that, you can not do with a 3500 / 4500 with a NH. Too much weight.. Try and pull that out of some wet grass... Please verify.. I may be off. Can they pull more? less ? I don't know.. But this is what is supported under my warranty..

-- Edited by The Junkman on Friday 6th of June 2014 09:07:07 PM

-- Edited by The Junkman on Friday 6th of June 2014 09:11:29 PM

Just to toss this out there, New Horizons does say that some of their rigs can be pulled with an F450.  In fact, I think one of our members here has a New Horizons and is pulling with the F450.

Secondly, I never trust all of the weights that manufacturers use in describing what their trucks will pull.  When GM upped their weights a year or so ago, I could never find anyone that could describe to me what it was that GM did that upped their numbers so much.  Prior to those new numbers, GM was falling behind both Ford and Dodge.  Also, I NEVER go by the manufacturer's "tow weight" rating.  I can guarantee that if my trailer weighed as much as what my truck is supposed to be able to "tow," I would be probably be well over weight on both the GCVW and the GAWR.

As for 4x2 or 4x4, I've dealt with both over the years and other than when on the farm, there has been no need for 4x4.  If worse comes to worse, we also have an F150 and a tow chain.  Yes, we are different than most in that we will continue to have two vehicles.

Terry

Terry and Jo wrote:  When GM upped their weights a year or so ago, I could never find anyone that could describe to me what it was that GM did that upped their numbers so much. 

Terry

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Actually GM completely changed the frames in the 3500HD (as RAM did with the 3500HD.)  GM's have new rear axles, which actually have 275lbs more rear axle rating than the F-450; totally new suspension and larger tires.  Not the same truck under the skin.  That’s how they could up their ratings.  Like Ford has, each year the marketing people have the engineers use the extra capacity already built into the trucks so they can "one up" each other.  Ford did this when they upped the HP to 400 from 390 with a software change in the ECM.  No change to the engine, just software. The MTBF capacity was already in the engine, just not utilized until needed to do the "one up thing."

As to F-450’s pulling NH trailers:  Yes indeed, if the pin weight on the NH stays low enough and you put very little in the truck and certainly no hauler bed which some desire.  The rear axle rating on the “pickup version” of F-450 has always been the limitation for the truck as Jack and others continue to point out.  This continues for the 2015 F-450 model which was a disappointment to some including me.

Thanks, Bill.

When all this occurred, the only answer I could get from one guy was that "yeah, I've seen the new trucks and they are definitely better."  When I asked for specific reasons for them being better, he couldn't answer.  Either no one else read my questions, or they couldn't answer them either.

I've long believed that it would be better for all truck manufacturers to improve things as the competition actually helps the users in the long run.

Terry

Ran, Everyone is going to have their own opinion. My experience has been the need for it. A dually has terrible rear traction. I have used 4 wheel just on wet grass without I would have needed a tow. I have also pulled trucks and campers out of their camping spot in campgrounds. Campers and trucks are heavy, all it takes is backing the camper off the pad and you could be stuck. I watched my father in law pull his friend out of a spot 25 years ago. The 2 wheel drive could not get traction on the wet clay. Paw just hooked up to front of other truck pulled Ford 250 and 36' Holiday Rambler with no trouble. Paw also had 250 but 4 wheel. I have owned only 4-wheel since then.

James

Sushidog wrote:

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How about a 2wd with a winch for the few times one might need some extra pulling power without sacrificing the small but constant hit in fuel mileage of a 4wd?

Chip

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In answer: Winches don’t work in reverse with a trailer connected.  Been there more than once and it wasn’t off road.  There is no hit to mileage with 4WD disengaged when capable trucks weighs 9,000lbs+ without a trailer and 4.X+ rear ends.  But if you don’t want 4WD, don’t purchase it.  Those who do want 4WD can have it both ways.  2WD / 4WD with a flip of the switch.  Personal choice and we’ve outlined it pretty well.  I like to be prepared.  Just a choice.

I'm sure there is a slight difference in mpg.. But it's minor.. May add like 300lbs to the rig.. Shoot.. Thats me in the pass seat.. lol.

And winching.. you need to have something to anchor too.. and need what, a 30k winch? Even a double line pull could be scary..

And you can and will get stuck with 4wd too.. Been there done that 100's of times..lol

But most times it will get you out.. my last truck was a Lifted 08 f250 6.4 with aggressive tires. .. I used the 4wd maybe 5 times..It was nice to have, and bought for the relatively small cost on the RAM i drive now... It's just nice to have. I'd spend the money on 4wd.. before lets say...a 2nd power awning, or 3rd ac on the rv.

Sushidog wrote:

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I didn't think about trying to reverse with a winch. I guess you could attach a winch to the rear of your trailer, but it would probably just pull the back bumper off unless your trailer has a rear, frame mounted hitch to attach it to.

I didn't realize that 4wd and 2wd gave the same MPG on bigger trucks. The reason I bought a 2wd 3/4 ton is that all the EPA mileage estimates for 1/2 ton trucks show 4wd models returning lower mpg figures than their 2wd counterparts. I assumed 3/4 tons were about the same, since the EPA doesn't publish any mileage figures for 3/4 ton and up trucks. Does anyone else know of any independent MPG tests confirming this? Had I known that I would have probably looked for a 4wd, as the rear wheel traction is very poor because of the 1,100 lb diesel engine up front and a light, SRW rear end. MPG is one of the reasons I chose a SRW rear end vs a DRW too. Next you'll be telling me that a DRW model has no more rolling resistance and delivers the same MPG as a SRW model. At least I'll save on tire replacement costs, having only 4 TV tires to buy rather than 6.

Chip

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Chip:

I think the point is what kind of vehicle use is intended.  When you start thinking about large trailers, which I define as rigs beginning around 15K and up, IMO your talking dual rear wheels for a variety of issues.  MPG is, IMO, about the last thing we should consider.  When you’re moving 22K and up worth of combined rating you are not going to get EPA MPG numbers as we all well know.  These trucks are selected for towing first and daily drivers second.

The safety and stability of DRW trucks, with larger rigs, is simply a safety issue, IMO.  When you have a blow out due to a rock cut on a paved road having that second tire to take the load when towing is a big safety item.  (“Ask me how I know this.”)  DRW also offer much better stability in turns (at speed) when the truck wants to turn and the trailer wants to go straight. 6 tires brake better than 4.

I just say this to say, IMO, rolling resistance and MPG are not at the top of the list of criteria when selecting a towing truck.  That said, with smaller trailers or ones that might be used seldom for travel and more stationary service, perhaps one might want to consider a lesser truck so long as it is with specification to the job a hand.  But DRW are important to safety and stability, IMO.

A lot of people read this forum and the issues you raise are important ones for anyone's consideration.  That's why I commented.

Bill

Sushidog wrote:

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Thanks Bill,

I always appreciate your comments. I guess we're on the smaller end of the scale when it comes to planning for full-timing, in terms of trailer size and budget, though not as small as those who live in a van, truck camper and the like. Of course, the OP is considering a bigger rig such as you have and your advice is sound.

I was planning on living FT in a HiLo, but as they are now defunct, I adjusted my plans. My current plans include moving monthly or seasonally (budgeting $300/mo for our campsite) a 30ft, 10,000lb (loaded) TT, which seems huge to me coming from a 10 sq ft Aliner, but I guess it's tiny compared to the rigs most here have - and the miles they tow each year. I completely agree that intended use makes all the difference in the world when setting priorities.

Chip

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Chip:

You bring up the exact reason why I say so often, “It depends.”

Back in the day we had a 31’ Airstream which fully loaded was less than 10,000lbs.  A DRW truck with a diesel would have been overkill even if the diesel would have existed back then in a “pickup.”  A nice 2500 Chevy Suburban or a nice F-250 SRW gasser was the truck of choice and did a fine job “back in the day” and it will today properly equipped.

With your choice, I loved the Hi-Lo concept, what you have seems good.  So don’t believe you need a big diesel with DRW for your application; at least not in my view.

As my parent’s called a 31’ foot Airstream home for a long time I fully well know you don’t need a 45’ trailer to be comfortable.  In fact, we made our new trailer a bit shorter than the last albeit a bit heavier.

Good luck with your plan.

Bill