Yesterday, while DW was shopping at WM, I picked up the Feb issue of Diesel Power magazine because of some of the articles on towing. The feature article was about the 2015 Ford Super Duties. I couldn't find the article on their website, so here is the gist of it.
For 2015, they have made some serious changes so as to regain the tow/haul crown from Ram. The biggest one being the engine. It will have 425 hp, 40 more than Ram, and 875 lb/ft of torque, besting Ram by 25.
I never knew it but they said the 2011-14 SD's had problems with high altitude performance and poor engine braking on the downhill. These problems have apparently been taken care of by a bigger, badder, better Garrett turbocharger.
The vehicle featured was an F-450 with 4:30 gears and a 32,000 lb towing capacity...didn't give a GCWR. The powertrain will be the same in 250/350's but they will probably have the 3:73(?) gears.
If I were a Ford man and I didn't need the truck right away, I would definitely wait to see this one.
Vance
Bill and Linda said
01:43 PM Jan 13, 2014
Vance:
I agree.I’d wait on a 2015.I’ve anxious to see what the rear axle rating is on the 2015 F-450 as well as the other finalized numbers that Ford will “play with” to quote an expression. Same engine, just another ECM calibration like they did when they upped the truck to 400HP.
They are also replacing the current turbo so as to have an effective exhaust brake and adding an on / off switch like Dodge and Chevy.The Ford marketing guy said in an interview they really didn’t have a very good exhaust brake in comparison to the Chevy or Dodge. Tests showed that to be an accurate statement. The F-450, current integration, has only a 9,100 lb rear axle rating.So while it may be rated to pull a lot, you can run out of pin weight capacity in a hurry, especially if you put any up-fits on the truck. So that is another reason to wait on a 2015 in addition to getting an effective exhaust brake addition.
Dealer told me last week they should have firm numbers by April and I’m looking forward to seeing them. They do have firm numbers on the F-550 and up. But the marketing guys want to wait on the F-350/450.
Very interesting . . .
Bill
Edit to change unfits to up-fits. Sometimes spell check is not your friend. :)
-- Edited by Bill and Linda on Monday 13th of January 2014 02:09:11 PM
nomorsno said
05:48 PM Jan 13, 2014
Glad this came up on this forum. I have been looking at the same unit. Was thinking more of the F350 DRW vs the 450 with the plan of a Lifestyle LS38RS fifth wheel. The 3.73 gears should be ok and will be slightly kinder on fuel overall I hope. I'll definitely pick up the feb issue of diesel power and check it out. Thanks for starting this out, will watch to see how things turn out. Did they mention any weights that the 350 will pull. I'm guessing they will be over 25000 if the 450 is over 30k. Perhaps a stupid question but is there a rule of thumb for a tow capacity safety margin? If the truck is rated for 25k and the 5er is under 20k loaded up that seems right to me. Thoughts??
VanMar said
07:14 PM Jan 13, 2014
Dave,
In the same issue, they did a comparison between a '13 Ram 3500 and a '13 F-450. Seems kind of like apples-to-oranges to me. In the spec sheet, it indicated tow capacity for the Ram was 28,800. I imagine if Ford wants the title back, it will be more than that. But if it is, the 350 and the 450 will be awfully close together. Like Bill said, we'll see how they play with the numbers.
I see Silverado is Motor Trend's Truck of the Year. Can't wait to see what GM does with the Duramax.
Vance
ps: I've heard that a 20% margin was a good cushion...that's what I'll be using.
-- Edited by VanMar on Monday 13th of January 2014 07:17:56 PM
Terry and Jo said
07:33 PM Jan 13, 2014
Another thing for the newer F450 will be the return to the 19.5" wheels. I "think" I read that they would be back on the 2015, but don't hold me to that. Also, the F450's also have the tighter turning radius, which is a real benefit when driving the truck by itself.
Also, when choosing a truck, do NOT go by the manufacturer's listing of a "tow weight." One wants to know the GCVW and the GAWR. Even on my 2008, I can guarantee that if I was to tow something as heavy as the truck's "tow weight," I would be over on both GAWR and GCVW.
Terry
VanMar said
07:15 AM Jan 14, 2014
Terry and Jo wrote:
Another thing for the newer F450 will be the return to the 19.5" wheels. I "think" I read that they would be back on the 2015, but don't hold me to that. Terry
Correct. The article said the 19.5's would be back.
nomorsno said
12:29 PM Jan 14, 2014
Absolutely right Terry, I will be sure to look at GCVW as this has been mentioned many times on other posts related to weights. That's just another reason this forum is so helpful. I also read about the 19.5s on the 450 and larger diameter brakes with the larger wheels. Will need to decide at purchase time. Overall truck size there is no difference but perhaps insurance is different with the 450.
Terry and Jo said
06:38 PM Jan 14, 2014
The F450 could have a couple of different aspects that make it different from the smaller trucks. One is the insurance and the other is registration. You will want to check with your insurance agent/agency to see if the F450 needs a special underwriting. When I first went to insure ours, it was through Oklahoma Farm Bureau insurance. They took into consideration that even though the F450 is a Class 4 truck (smallest of the the MDT's), it was strictly being used for personal travel and towing a personally owned RV. When we went with Miller Insurance, they came up with insurance for all of our stuff through National Interstate. Since those companies are used to RV's more so than Oklahoma Farm Bureau, there weren't many questions from them on the F450.
Depending on the state, the registration on the F450 might be an issue, so you will want to check with some of your local tag agencies to see what might be a factor/cost there as well.
Terry
Bill and Linda said
08:38 PM Jan 14, 2014
Terry and Jo wrote:
The F450 could have a couple of different aspects that make it different from the smaller trucks. One is the insurance and the other is registration. You will want to check with your insurance agent/agency to see if the F450 needs a special underwriting. When I first went to insure ours, it was through Oklahoma Farm Bureau insurance. They took into consideration that even though the F450 is a Class 4 truck (smallest of the the MDT's), it was strictly being used for personal travel and towing a personally owned RV. When we went with Miller Insurance, they came up with insurance for all of our stuff through National Interstate. Since those companies are used to RV's more so than Oklahoma Farm Bureau, there weren't many questions from them on the F450.
Depending on the state, the registration on the F450 might be an issue, so you will want to check with some of your local tag agencies to see what might be a factor/cost there as well.
Terry
This will be true for the Dodge 3500HD as well because it and the F-450 are the same class wise. Both are "officially" MDT trucks.When you hit 14,000 GVW rating of the truck “officially” then things change. Not the combined weight of the truck and trailer, the GVW of the truck itself. Good time to check with Miller Insurance and combo the truck with the trailer.It can save you some money.
The magic number that causes issues is 26,001lb GVWR (truck only but including pin weight) in most states. Below that it isn’t usually an major issue, just money – road tax. At 26,001 you have to pay additional road use taxes in some states if it is a truck. (Not a Motorhome.)“It depends” on the state in which the truck is registered.Not driven.
This sounds a lot worse than it is.You just need to do your homework.
Also, a point, in some states when the GCVW (actual weight of truck and trailer) exceeds 26,001 lbs you need a Class “A” or similar type driver’s license. (Not a CDL if it is an RV.) It depends, yet again, on the state.
Just commenting
Bill
Terry and Jo said
09:23 PM Jan 14, 2014
Bill,
Not to argue, but I understand the Dodge 3500 to have a GVWR of 14,000 lbs. That keeps it in the Class 3 category. According to the Wikipedia article I've linked to on numerous occasions, the Class 4 trucks start at 14,001 lbs. I may be wrong, but I thought that part of the reason Dodge stayed at 14,000 lbs was so their trucks didn't have to be considered as an MDT, thus possibly requiring a higher registration cost. That was always one reason why I wondered why Dodge claims such high GCVW and towing weights but wouldn't go beyond the 14,000 lb GVWR.
All well and good....but look up the rear axle weight ratings.... from what I'm told, same as 2014. Which makes it a non-starter for any heavy 5th wheel. You simply will not be able to support the pin weights.
All well and good....but look up the rear axle weight ratings.... from what I'm told, same as 2014. Which makes it a non-starter for any heavy 5th wheel. You simply will not be able to support the pin weights.
What Jack just said. Never go by any manufacturer's "tow rating." Always go by the trucks GCVW (Gross Combined Vehiclular Weight) and GAWR (Gross Axle Weight Rating) when choosing a truck. I can guarantee that if I tried to tow a trailer that was as heavy as what my 2008 is supposed to be able to tow, it would definitely be overweight.
Terry
Dave and Denise said
09:25 AM Apr 2, 2014
First post on here. Yep buried in a thread instead of starting a new one. Just wanted to say thanks for this thread as I was not aware of the upcoming 2015 F450 changes as well potential insurance issues. I have been wavering between the F350 and F450 for a while. The other day my mechanic asked me why I was waiting to buy a new truck and I didn't have a good answer for him. But now I do!
Been visiting this site for many years, finally hoping to become a active member.
All well and good....but look up the rear axle weight ratings.... from what I'm told, same as 2014. Which makes it a non-starter for any heavy 5th wheel. You simply will not be able to support the pin weights.
From the Ford website linked above - 2015 F-450 RAWR is the same as 2014. However, I'll bet they will increase this at final introduction based on some Ford dealer only information I was provided in a formal quote. Hope so as this is way below the RAM 3500HD which is 9,750 lbs RAWR. The RAWR is many times the limiting factor on the F-450. Not the tow or GCWR - especially with a hauler bed.
Max. Rear GAWR
6290 lbs. (F-250);
7180 lbs. (F-350 SRW);
9650 lbs. (F-350 DRW);
9100 lbs. (F-450)
Bill and Linda said
04:11 PM Apr 3, 2014
Terry and Jo wrote:
Bill,
Not to argue, but I understand the Dodge 3500 to have a GVWR of 14,000 lbs. That keeps it in the Class 3 category. According to the Wikipedia article I've linked to on numerous occasions, the Class 4 trucks start at 14,001 lbs. I may be wrong, but I thought that part of the reason Dodge stayed at 14,000 lbs was so their trucks didn't have to be considered as an MDT, thus possibly requiring a higher registration cost.
Terry
Terry, however:
Wikipedia notwithstanding, like the F-450, the RAM 3500HD with a GVWR of 14,000 is considered by the insurance companies to be an MDT moving it into the “commercial” insurance category thus much higher costs. At least this was the case in our conversations with more than one insurance company including Miller.At 13,000 lbs GVWR a truck was not considered "commercial."At 14,000 lbs it was commercial as far as insurance costs were concerned.There are some ways around this and as you have found with Miller who, for one, has access to some products that help with those cost issues.Not all agents have access to the same insurance products even from the same insurance company.Been there. So MDT or not, 14,000lbs costs more for insurance if the agent doesn't have access to some of these "special" products so to speak.
As to registration and license costs, In most states the truck’s vehicle license registration costs have nothing to do with the manufacture’s ratings of the truck.You can register a truck, in my state for example, to carry 20,000 lbs even if the manufacture rates it at 10,000lbs GVWR. I didn't say this was safe - just legal - the DOT license office doesn't check the truck specifications. They just want a weight number from you and you can change this each year. The registration weight for the tag and the ratings of the truck, have nothing to do with one another from a DOT licensed weight registration standpoint.Some states require you, for example, to include the trailer’s weight in the truck’s licensed weight registration.I.e. you have to add the truck’s weight and the trailer’s weight together and be licensed for that weight.It depends on the state. Some states exempt “some” of an RV’s weight but not all. It depends on the state.
Honestly, it doesn’t matter one way or another if the truck is considered to be an MDT or not.The real point is what the truck ratings are on an individual item basis including the rear axle rating which is many times the limiting factor with some trucks as we’ve pointed out before. I just recommend anyone who is looking at a truck with a GVWR of 14,000 or more to check out the insurance item closely as costs can vary a great deal. The badge on the side of the truck means nothing anymore like is once did.
All of this pertains to trucks, not motorhomes as to weights and insurance / license tag costs.
YMMV - I'm just providing info on my research over the years from a former professional position having to deal with this "Stuff." Hope it helps someone.
Yesterday, while DW was shopping at WM, I picked up the Feb issue of Diesel Power magazine because of some of the articles on towing. The feature article was about the 2015 Ford Super Duties. I couldn't find the article on their website, so here is the gist of it.
For 2015, they have made some serious changes so as to regain the tow/haul crown from Ram. The biggest one being the engine. It will have 425 hp, 40 more than Ram, and 875 lb/ft of torque, besting Ram by 25.
I never knew it but they said the 2011-14 SD's had problems with high altitude performance and poor engine braking on the downhill. These problems have apparently been taken care of by a bigger, badder, better Garrett turbocharger.
The vehicle featured was an F-450 with 4:30 gears and a 32,000 lb towing capacity...didn't give a GCWR. The powertrain will be the same in 250/350's but they will probably have the 3:73(?) gears.
If I were a Ford man and I didn't need the truck right away, I would definitely wait to see this one.
Vance
Vance:
I agree. I’d wait on a 2015. I’ve anxious to see what the rear axle rating is on the 2015 F-450 as well as the other finalized numbers that Ford will “play with” to quote an expression. Same engine, just another ECM calibration like they did when they upped the truck to 400HP.
They are also replacing the current turbo so as to have an effective exhaust brake and adding an on / off switch like Dodge and Chevy. The Ford marketing guy said in an interview they really didn’t have a very good exhaust brake in comparison to the Chevy or Dodge. Tests showed that to be an accurate statement. The F-450, current integration, has only a 9,100 lb rear axle rating. So while it may be rated to pull a lot, you can run out of pin weight capacity in a hurry, especially if you put any up-fits on the truck. So that is another reason to wait on a 2015 in addition to getting an effective exhaust brake addition.
Dealer told me last week they should have firm numbers by April and I’m looking forward to seeing them. They do have firm numbers on the F-550 and up. But the marketing guys want to wait on the F-350/450.
Very interesting . . .
Bill
Edit to change unfits to up-fits. Sometimes spell check is not your friend. :)
-- Edited by Bill and Linda on Monday 13th of January 2014 02:09:11 PM
Glad this came up on this forum. I have been looking at the same unit. Was thinking more of the F350 DRW vs the 450 with the plan of a Lifestyle LS38RS fifth wheel. The 3.73 gears should be ok and will be slightly kinder on fuel overall I hope. I'll definitely pick up the feb issue of diesel power and check it out. Thanks for starting this out, will watch to see how things turn out. Did they mention any weights that the 350 will pull. I'm guessing they will be over 25000 if the 450 is over 30k. Perhaps a stupid question but is there a rule of thumb for a tow capacity safety margin? If the truck is rated for 25k and the 5er is under 20k loaded up that seems right to me. Thoughts??
Dave,
In the same issue, they did a comparison between a '13 Ram 3500 and a '13 F-450. Seems kind of like apples-to-oranges to me. In the spec sheet, it indicated tow capacity for the Ram was 28,800. I imagine if Ford wants the title back, it will be more than that. But if it is, the 350 and the 450 will be awfully close together. Like Bill said, we'll see how they play with the numbers.
I see Silverado is Motor Trend's Truck of the Year. Can't wait to see what GM does with the Duramax.
Vance
ps: I've heard that a 20% margin was a good cushion...that's what I'll be using.
-- Edited by VanMar on Monday 13th of January 2014 07:17:56 PM
Another thing for the newer F450 will be the return to the 19.5" wheels. I "think" I read that they would be back on the 2015, but don't hold me to that. Also, the F450's also have the tighter turning radius, which is a real benefit when driving the truck by itself.
Also, when choosing a truck, do NOT go by the manufacturer's listing of a "tow weight." One wants to know the GCVW and the GAWR. Even on my 2008, I can guarantee that if I was to tow something as heavy as the truck's "tow weight," I would be over on both GAWR and GCVW.
Terry
Correct. The article said the 19.5's would be back.
Absolutely right Terry, I will be sure to look at GCVW as this has been mentioned many times on other posts related to weights. That's just another reason this forum is so helpful. I also read about the 19.5s on the 450 and larger diameter brakes with the larger wheels. Will need to decide at purchase time. Overall truck size there is no difference but perhaps insurance is different with the 450.
The F450 could have a couple of different aspects that make it different from the smaller trucks. One is the insurance and the other is registration. You will want to check with your insurance agent/agency to see if the F450 needs a special underwriting. When I first went to insure ours, it was through Oklahoma Farm Bureau insurance. They took into consideration that even though the F450 is a Class 4 truck (smallest of the the MDT's), it was strictly being used for personal travel and towing a personally owned RV. When we went with Miller Insurance, they came up with insurance for all of our stuff through National Interstate. Since those companies are used to RV's more so than Oklahoma Farm Bureau, there weren't many questions from them on the F450.
Depending on the state, the registration on the F450 might be an issue, so you will want to check with some of your local tag agencies to see what might be a factor/cost there as well.
Terry
This will be true for the Dodge 3500HD as well because it and the F-450 are the same class wise. Both are "officially" MDT trucks. When you hit 14,000 GVW rating of the truck “officially” then things change. Not the combined weight of the truck and trailer, the GVW of the truck itself. Good time to check with Miller Insurance and combo the truck with the trailer. It can save you some money.
The magic number that causes issues is 26,001lb GVWR (truck only but including pin weight) in most states. Below that it isn’t usually an major issue, just money – road tax. At 26,001 you have to pay additional road use taxes in some states if it is a truck. (Not a Motorhome.) “It depends” on the state in which the truck is registered. Not driven.
This sounds a lot worse than it is. You just need to do your homework.
Also, a point, in some states when the GCVW (actual weight of truck and trailer) exceeds 26,001 lbs you need a Class “A” or similar type driver’s license. (Not a CDL if it is an RV.) It depends, yet again, on the state.
Just commenting
Bill
Bill,
Not to argue, but I understand the Dodge 3500 to have a GVWR of 14,000 lbs. That keeps it in the Class 3 category. According to the Wikipedia article I've linked to on numerous occasions, the Class 4 trucks start at 14,001 lbs. I may be wrong, but I thought that part of the reason Dodge stayed at 14,000 lbs was so their trucks didn't have to be considered as an MDT, thus possibly requiring a higher registration cost. That was always one reason why I wondered why Dodge claims such high GCVW and towing weights but wouldn't go beyond the 14,000 lb GVWR.
Terry
www.ford.com/trucks/superduty/specifications/towing/
All well and good....but look up the rear axle weight ratings.... from what I'm told, same as 2014. Which makes it a non-starter for any heavy 5th wheel. You simply will not be able to support the pin weights.
What Jack just said. Never go by any manufacturer's "tow rating." Always go by the trucks GCVW (Gross Combined Vehiclular Weight) and GAWR (Gross Axle Weight Rating) when choosing a truck. I can guarantee that if I tried to tow a trailer that was as heavy as what my 2008 is supposed to be able to tow, it would definitely be overweight.
Terry
Been visiting this site for many years, finally hoping to become a active member.
From the Ford website linked above - 2015 F-450 RAWR is the same as 2014. However, I'll bet they will increase this at final introduction based on some Ford dealer only information I was provided in a formal quote. Hope so as this is way below the RAM 3500HD which is 9,750 lbs RAWR. The RAWR is many times the limiting factor on the F-450. Not the tow or GCWR - especially with a hauler bed.
Terry, however:
Wikipedia notwithstanding, like the F-450, the RAM 3500HD with a GVWR of 14,000 is considered by the insurance companies to be an MDT moving it into the “commercial” insurance category thus much higher costs. At least this was the case in our conversations with more than one insurance company including Miller. At 13,000 lbs GVWR a truck was not considered "commercial." At 14,000 lbs it was commercial as far as insurance costs were concerned. There are some ways around this and as you have found with Miller who, for one, has access to some products that help with those cost issues. Not all agents have access to the same insurance products even from the same insurance company. Been there. So MDT or not, 14,000lbs costs more for insurance if the agent doesn't have access to some of these "special" products so to speak.
As to registration and license costs, In most states the truck’s vehicle license registration costs have nothing to do with the manufacture’s ratings of the truck. You can register a truck, in my state for example, to carry 20,000 lbs even if the manufacture rates it at 10,000lbs GVWR. I didn't say this was safe - just legal - the DOT license office doesn't check the truck specifications. They just want a weight number from you and you can change this each year. The registration weight for the tag and the ratings of the truck, have nothing to do with one another from a DOT licensed weight registration standpoint. Some states require you, for example, to include the trailer’s weight in the truck’s licensed weight registration. I.e. you have to add the truck’s weight and the trailer’s weight together and be licensed for that weight. It depends on the state. Some states exempt “some” of an RV’s weight but not all. It depends on the state.
Honestly, it doesn’t matter one way or another if the truck is considered to be an MDT or not. The real point is what the truck ratings are on an individual item basis including the rear axle rating which is many times the limiting factor with some trucks as we’ve pointed out before. I just recommend anyone who is looking at a truck with a GVWR of 14,000 or more to check out the insurance item closely as costs can vary a great deal. The badge on the side of the truck means nothing anymore like is once did.
All of this pertains to trucks, not motorhomes as to weights and insurance / license tag costs.
YMMV - I'm just providing info on my research over the years from a former professional position having to deal with this "Stuff." Hope it helps someone.