I guess to start, I'd better describe my plans to let everyone know the purpose and planned use of the truck topper I'm proposing.
I plan on full-timing in a few years using my recently purchased 2008 F-250 super-cab long-bed 6.4. I will be towing a yet unpurchased travel trailer, for snowbird use, wintering in warmer climes and traveling north and to higher altitudes when the heat down south gets oppressive - not unlike many here. I plan on moving monthly, budget permitting. I have 2 tiny motorcycles (125cc Honda CT70 clones for around town errands, local sightseeing, etc.) that I plan on carrying in the truck bed along with a couple gas cans, tools, generator, and whatever other small items that my truck's remaining weight limit will allow. I've done the weight calculations based on my proposed trailer's realistic tongue weight, and I should have just enough capacity to do the job, but little left over.
OK now here's my 2 designs:
First is an aerodynamic topper designed to maximize my non-towing MPG. My plan is to integrate a 4 x 8 ft loading ramp into the sloping top of the camper. This can be used to load the bikes and the generator. The handlebars fold down on the bikes so they will handily fit under the top. The ramp comes off to allow unlimited headroom when riding the bikes into the bed of the truck. Both proposed campers will be built using exterior 1/4" plywood on a light-weight 2x2 frame (both glued and screwed). The topper and ramp will be coated with roll-on bed-liner for additional strength and durability. This topper has the advantages of better fuel mileage when unfettered by my TT and maybe 100-120lbs weight savings compared to camper #2. The disadvantage is towing MPG and less storage volume (though I don't think I will be able to utilize the additional storage volume of the larger topper due to weight constraints.)
Here's a crude drawing of topper #1 so you can kinda visualize what I'm talking about:
Design #2 is more conventional being a boxy topper the height of the cab with a folding loading ramp making up the rear door. However here's the twist. If I go with this design I will top this shell with a flip-up flat fiberglass truck bed topper that hinges in the front directly behind the top of the cab - just on top of the wooden box rather than on the bed rails. Now here's the kicker - when the topper is raised I would have flip up triangular shaped walls that could be erected, along with a fold-down back wall to make an gently sloping air foil to direct air over the camper similar to those used on an 18 wheeler to improve aerodynamics while towing. This camper will be a bit heavier, and it may hurt the truck's aerodynamics slightly when not towing but should make the TT easier to tow. It also provides a little more room to store light weight, bulky items, like linen, blankets, lawn chairs, etc.
Here's a drawing to illustrate:
What say ye, experienced full-timers? Which concept would you choose? Any improvements or suggestions (other than to get my head examined)?
Chip
-- Edited by Sushidog on Saturday 28th of December 2013 04:21:04 PM
Lucky Mike said
04:29 PM Dec 28, 2013
If you are towing a TT design 2 will be more aero dynamic and push the air up over the trailer and the sides....saving on wind shear and drag
Sushidog said
04:55 PM Dec 28, 2013
Thanks for the reply, Mike.
Yes, I think design #2 will be more aerodynamic while towing, but what about the times when not towing? I'm thinking that the poorer aerodynamics of design #2 when not towing (and the extra 100lbs I'll always be hauling around) won't be that significant as most non-towing use as a full-timer will be the short, low-speed trips for groceries, where aerodynamics won't significantly impact my fuel costs. However the 100+lbs of extra weight of the heavier design will mean 100 less lbs of stuff I can own and carry. Decisions, decisions.
Chip
Lucky Mike said
05:09 PM Dec 28, 2013
if the extra 100 pounds is going to save you 3 miles a gallon for being aerodynamic over say 250miles during hauling the TT down the hiway......or you omit it so you can save almost nothing driving around town......
do you need frugal........or is money no object in the long run..........................IMHO
Sushidog said
07:20 PM Dec 28, 2013
Frugal is important. I trust you guys to clarify my thoughts. I believe you are right, Mike, that design #2 will save me more money in the long run.
What would you use to protect and waterproof the wood?
The latter has a 50 yr warranty, so it should well outlast me.
Chip
Lucky Mike said
07:48 PM Dec 28, 2013
If your using 1/4 ply to be light I would use a fiberglass mesh and gel ....finish sand and paint......just like a boat with the same finish and durability
Terry and Jo said
08:56 PM Dec 28, 2013
If you go with design number two with the hinge at the front, be sure and allow for sealing in some way around that hinge so that you don't have leaks.
I haven't thought about glassing it. I'm sure that would add even more weight, which I'm trying to avoid - though it would look slick. The reason I'm looking at a plastic tonneau cover versus a fiberglass one is it is about 1/2 the weight. If I could glue coroplast to the frame rather than plywood I would do it, but I'm afraid it wouldn't hold up.
Chip
The Bear II said
03:36 PM Dec 31, 2013
To be honest with you, I'm not sure how much MPG you will save with an aerodynamic design. When I towed TTs I had two different trucks with two different caps (we call em Campershells). Both caps were made by camper manufacturers and were higher than the cab of the trucks. I could almost stand up in them. Both had rear cargo doors (large panels) that could be easily removed to load my motorcycles.
These caps required at least two strong folks, preferably 3, to remove. They were heavy and bulky.
Both trucks averaged 10 MPG when not towing and 6 MPG when towing. The change in MPG wasn't noticeable with the caps on or off ... probably due to other conditions like wind, geography and loads.
You may find that buying a used cap off of e-bay or craigslist will be less work, cost and not affect your mileage.
Sushidog said
05:40 PM Dec 31, 2013
Thanks for the advise. Weight is a big concern. I've researched high camper tops as you describe, and one for my long bed will weigh about 300 lbs. From the material weight including a flip-up plastic toneau cover I calculate I can build one for 165-175 lbs.
Here's how the weight breaks down:
Rated payload weight with 1-150lb driver and one 150lb passenger 1950 lbs
Tongue (max weight 10% of GVWR of trailer) 1100 lbs Hitch 65 lbs Excess passenger and inside cargo (pet) weight 250 lbs 2 mini-motorcycles 320 lbs Honda eu3000is generator w/oil and fuel 150 lbs Spare fuel 1-6 gallon can 40 lbs Ramp 70 lbs Topper 175 lbs Total 2170 lbs -1950 lbs 220 lbs overweight! Now obviously, Ford's 1950 lb carrying capacity is hedging as there are people who carry over twice this much (using air bags, or helper springs of course), so I'm not really worried about 200 lbs as I will be well within my rear axle limit (with a well adjusted weight distributing hitch.) But I really don't have any room to spare without getting a smaller trailer. I don't want to get a bigger truck because of MPG (and taxes) of the smaller, lighter rig. It looks like it's time for us and the animals to go on a diet. I could always pull out the rear seats, and maybe I could remove the bumpers to save weight..... (Plus I haven't counted removing the tail gate, which the rear wall/ramp will replace.) Of course I could always start drilling holes. ;)
Chip
-- Edited by Sushidog on Tuesday 31st of December 2013 05:41:36 PM
Sushidog said
07:00 PM Dec 31, 2013
Here's a curious fact that I can't wrap my mind around. Ford says that my F-250 can pull a 16,000 lb fifth wheel. Now I don' t know about every hitch, but a 16k Reese fifth wheel slider weighs in at a little over 150 lbs (which I assume is about average.) The pin weight on a fifth wheel ranges from 15-20% of the weight of the fiver (according to the Ford brochure.) So estimating on the light side at 15% pin weight = 2,400 lbs + 150 lb hitch = 2,550 lbs of bed weight or 600 lbs over Ford's published 1,950 carrying capacity for my truck. Go figure.
Thanks Mike, that will come in handy, for general info, but I take the calculations with a grain of salt. According to that calculator, my Chevy Cobalt SS (1,000 lb manufacturer recommended tow limit) is almost overloaded with me, my DW and all my camping gear and couldn't pull any trailer, let alone my 1,700 lb Aliner. I've had both since 2006 and the car now has 261,000 miles on the clock - about 60,000 of those towing my Aliner - up and down some pretty steep mountains, at 75 mph across west Texas, etc. with no ill effects. It's super reliable, pulls great and stops better with no sway or sag. I should call it Timex, cause it takes a lickin' and keeps on tickin'!
The point of my last post, is though Ford says my F-250 6.4 can pull a 16,000 lb fiver, I can't crunch the numbers to produce a scenario, given the vehicle's other far too conservative weight ratings where its possible. Yet I'm sure there are folks out there towing 16,000 UVW fivers, loaded down to 20,000 lbs, who have been doing so for years. Would I do that? Absolutely not, however would I pull, say a 14,000 lb (loaded) fiver, which is one ton less than they say it will pull, with a 20% pin weight of 2,800 lbs - which is 850 lbs more than its bed rating (with air bags, of course, so it doesn't sag.) Is this by the book? No. Would I feel unsafe ding so? Well anything can be unsafe, if done irresponsibly, but people pull bigger loads than this every day, responsibly, with far less capable trucks.
Back in the 60's my dad had a little 6 cylinder GMC 1/2 ton pickup - you know, the old tiny, stepside model. Every Wednesday he'd load it down with 3,000 lbs of oysters and drive about 200 miles to deliver his load. He did this for over a decade - with the same truck with no issues other than normal, routine maintenance and repairs, like tires, brakes, clutch plates, hoses and belts - never even a broken spring or even a bad rear end.
Towing a 16,000 fiver is something I never plan to do. At most I will be hauling a 7,500 lb UVW TT (probably about 10k lbs loaded.) I do think Ford is optimistic when they say it can reliably pull 16,000 lbs, but they are overly conservative when they say their 3/4 ton diesel truck won't carry a 2,000 lb load (even without pulling anything). IMHO I don't want to start an argument, as I know there are many people who think you need a HDT to pull a pop-up, and if that makes them feel better then that's OK, but experience tells me as long as I don't exceed the axle, wheel and tire ratings, or the GVWR, exceeding the manufacturer recommended carrying capacity by a reasonable amount won't hurt a thing.
But maybe I'm wrong. I'm willing to listen to anyone who can tell me of a real world experience where going a couple hundred pounds over the manufacturer weight rating, in any vehicle, caused them any problems whatsoever.
Chip
Lucky Mike said
09:12 AM Jan 1, 2014
HHHmmmmmm.......simple Answer
how much longer do you think its going to be before D.O.T see's $$$$ in placing Rvers on the side of the road with portable scales for being overweight and unsafe.
Please dont get me wrong........but if the instructions say dont do this..and do this......I would think alot of testing and engineering was put into it.
Terry and Jo said
09:34 AM Jan 1, 2014
Sushidog wrote:
But maybe I'm wrong. I'm willing to listen to anyone who can tell me of a real world experience where going a couple hundred pounds over the manufacturer weight rating, in any vehicle, caused them any problems whatsoever.
Chip
I know of a couple that had a Ford F350 dually towing a Mobile Suites. As we know, DRV Suites models are heavier than most trailers. They were approaching an intersection after a light rain when the traffic light changed on them. They were unable to stop for the light, but fortunately, the folks that were in the vehicles that had green lights saw what was happening and didn't go out into the intersection.
That couple has since traded their F350 for an MDT. And yes, their trailer brakes were working.
Now, with all that said, I can't say what their weight capacity was in comparison to their actual weight, but there is a reason that many of us talk about having "more truck than needed" instead of "having too much trailer." I've heard stories all my life about folks saying that their trucks "did just fine." Personally, I prefer to have a "safety cushion" with regards to weight and weight capacities.
I remember there being a bit of "sudden learning" over on the forums that are related to the DRV Suites products when a gentleman that did RV wheel-by-wheel weighing at rallies provided a document that had the results of those weights on DRV's. His last comments were that 100% of the single rear wheel trucks were overweight, based on their door "data plates." Then he got the real attention when he stated that 60% of the dual rear wheeled trucks were also overweight.
That is part of the reason that we insisted on "at least" a Ford F450 for our 2010 Mobile Suites.
Terry
Sushidog said
11:16 AM Jan 1, 2014
I didn't think manufacturer recommendations were legally enforceable limits like GVWR, axle weight, wheel weight, etc.? I was under the impression that manufacturer tow recommendations were for suitability only, to allow manufacturers to limit their warranty and product liability claims.
For instance, let's say I'm towing my Aliner with my car at 170% of the manufacturer's recommended towing capacity, as I frequently do. What laws am I breaking, assuming I operate in a safe manner, as I always have? The axle, wheel and tire load ratings aren't exceeded, neither is the hitch rating or tongue weight excessive. The sport tuned suspension doesn't sag and my SS's 4 wheel, anti-lock, disk brakes coupled with my trailer brakes will stop in less distance than a standard model Cobalt with standard brakes even without a trailer, let alone the 1,000 lb trailer that they are rated to tow. I have only exceeded the recommended towing capacity of the vehicle, nothing else. If something on the vehicle breaks as a result then it's all on me, not Chevy. Of course it's all on me anyway after using it for over a quarter of a million miles.
Now operating in an unsafe manner is quite another thing. If I was speeding, driving recklessly or too fast for conditions (like in driving rain, snow or on icy roads) then even an unloaded vehicle with no trailer might deserve a ticket if they are risking their lives and others in such a manner.
I think the example of the F-350 not being able to stop because he was grossly overloaded is a good example of this reckless behavior. I'm sure he was far more than 200 lbs overloaded - perhaps several thousand pounds overweight and he didn't slow down sufficiently taking his load into account. I don't plan on towing above 55 mph, even within my vehicle's tow limits, and I may not tow at all under adverse conditions, especially in the mountains or in heavy crosswinds.
However even greatly exceeding the F-350's weight limits, in the previous example, still didn't reportedly damage the truck. It only affected its ability to stop, exceeding the braking capacity of the rig. I'll bet if he reduced his speed by only 10-15 mph he would have been able to stop, even though he was foolishly towing thousands of lbs beyond what his truck was rated for. Would exceeding the carrying capacity of my F-250 by 200 lbs significantly diminish its braking capacity, especially when the trailer I'll be towing will be thousands of lbs under what Ford says it can pull (and safely stop)? I doubt it. I also don't think this is a ticketable offense - at least not in the USA. Now I have heard that Canadian cops strictly enforce truck weights and measures with random vehicle stops, but since I'll never set foot on their soil, even to travel through to Alaska, mainly because of their gun laws but also because it's far too cold :) it won't affect me. They can technically pull over and inspect trucks that they have reasonable cause are violating other safety and emission laws too. But if you don't give them cause, like belching black smoke or have sagging springs or worn out shocks it will be unreasonable search and seizure and they'll need a warrant to proceed. I'm surprised they get away with random insurance checks in some states, as this also violates unreasonable search and seizure, IMHO. Ah, but what do I know? ;)
Chip
Lucky Mike said
11:32 AM Jan 1, 2014
The Federal Data plate on the tow vehicle and on the trailer will tell you your maximum legal weight.......anything above it is ilegal.
Did you know if you are involved in an accident whether you are at fault or not you could be found responsible and at fault and your insurance can cancel and not pay.
Im hoping Howard will step in with his expertise in How's and why's so you dont get caught up in opinions.
Sushidog said
12:35 PM Jan 1, 2014
Thanks Mike.
So I am correct then. Since the data plate on the vehicle does not say anything about carrying capacity (only axle weight limits and GVWR) nor does it say anything about how much my truck can tow. My RAWR is 6,100lbs and GVWR is 9800lbs. Even though Ford says that the carrying capacity is only 1950 lbs, as long as neither of these 2 numbers are exceeded then I'm good to go to put say 2,400lbs in the bed (as I doubt that the front capacity will not be close before the GVWR is exceeded.) Also I could legally tow a 14,000 lb travel trailer or a 18,000 lb fiver (not that I ever would) as long as the data plate weight specs are not exceeded, even though Ford suggests that it should not tow more than 12,500 lbs for a TT and 16,000lbs for a fiver - this is just a suggestion and not a legal limit. My doctor suggests that I lose weight too, but I don't listen to him either, as he can't send the weight police after my fat butt either. :)
So I can drive drunk, hopped up on drugs, with an expired safety ispection sticker, bald tires and worn-out brakes and my insuance must pay any and all claims (up to my policy limits.) But if I am 10 lbs over one of the weight limits on the data plate they can refuse payment even though I paid all my premiums? How is that possible? Don't we buy insurance to protect us from screwing up? If I didn't mess up why would I need insurance to begin with? I've heard the claim that insurants can deny coverage for being overweight before, but I don't see how they can do this legally? Wouldn't they have to put this wording somewhere in their insurance policy? And if so why don't they deny claims for drunk drivers, drug abusers, speeders or others in violation. It would seem that these other factors create a far greater safety risk than a truck 100lbs over his GVWR (yet everything else within the legal limits.) This sounds like a scare tactic to me. If they can in fact do this, then it must be spelled out in bold letters in your policy. I haven't found it on mine? Is it on anyone elses? If so you might want to switch carriers. I have GEICO.
Chip
Lucky Mike said
01:04 PM Jan 1, 2014
I can only point you to facts.......how you use them is a matter of choice , we are all responsible for our own actions.
Im out......
Terry and Jo said
03:39 PM Jan 1, 2014
Sushidog wrote:
However even greatly exceeding the F-350's weight limits, in the previous example, still didn't reportedly damage the truck. It only affected its ability to stop, exceeding the braking capacity of the rig. I'll bet if he reduced his speed by only 10-15 mph he would have been able to stop, even though he was foolishly towing thousands of lbs beyond what his truck was rated for. Would exceeding the carrying capacity of my F-250 by 200 lbs significantly diminish its braking capacity, especially when the trailer I'll be towing will be thousands of lbs under what Ford says it can pull (and safely stop)? I doubt it. I also don't think this is a ticketable offense - at least not in the USA. Now I have heard that Canadian cops strictly enforce truck weights and measures with random vehicle stops, but since I'll never set foot on their soil, even to travel through to Alaska, mainly because of their gun laws but also because it's far too cold :) it won't affect me. They can technically pull over and inspect trucks that they have reasonable cause are violating other safety and emission laws too. But if you don't give them cause, like belching black smoke or have sagging springs or worn out shocks it will be unreasonable search and seizure and they'll need a warrant to proceed. I'm surprised they get away with random insurance checks in some states, as this also violates unreasonable search and seizure, IMHO. Ah, but what do I know? ;)
Chip
Chip,
You are "assuming" that the DRV owner was overweight by thousands. I never said that he was, and in fact, stated that I didn't know his capacities. Also, considering that he was approaching a traffic light, it presumes that he was not out in the country somewhere, so I imagine his speed was probably less than you are considering.
What I did was give you a "real world" scenario of towing, just as you asked for, but you may not wish to hear it. However, whatever you do, keep in mind that others on the road are also counting on others to tow responsibly. I have years of experience with all kinds of trucks and towing of trailers, including 18-wheelers. Believe me, I've also seen the results of what happens when someone doesn't tow responsibly.
Terry
Sushidog said
09:30 PM Jan 1, 2014
You're right, Terry and Joe, I did make some assumptions that may have not been valid. However I did so based on the weight of a DRV, 20-25k lbs or more (4-5k lbs pin weight) ready to camp for the ones I've seen, but it still could be under the F-350's rated capacity. So what do you attribute it's poor stopping performance to in this incident if not speed and load, since you say the brakes were maintained properly? Was he possibly going down a steep grade?
Sure, my family is on the road too, so we all have "skin in the game" and want others to live up to their safety obligations too. I'm not suggesting that anyone should do something they feel is unsafe or even questionable, but there's more to safe towing than specs on a sheet of paper. There's also the exercise of good judgment, tempering one's towing speed to weather and road conditions taking into account not only weight, but the mechanical condition of the tow vehicle and many other factors, such as terrain, driver experience, reflexes, alertness and overall physical condition. I'm going to tow a lot slower after a long day when it's dark, rainy, and I'm tired and sleepy then when I'm fresh behind the wheel, on a beautiful clear morning. How about you?
Here's another curious fact. Two new Ford F-150 models have a payload capacity of 3,100 lbs or more - over 60% more than my F-250, which has a beefier frame, bigger brakes, etc. Which one would you feel safer driving with 2,000 lbs of payload in the back? Which truck do you think would better control that load in an emergency stop/maneuver? Better yet, which truck do you think will better control their maximum rated load, an F-150 with 3,100 lbs in the bed or an F-250 with 1950 lbs in the bed? I think the answer is obvious.
I'm not saying that someone should grossly exceed the manufacturer's recommendations (obviously, legal data plate limits must be obeyed), just that numbers in a sales brochure (possibly put their by sales people with quite different motivations then design engineers) may not accurately represent real world towing performance. I agree that bigger is always better when it comes to handling heavy loads, however if you are forced to tow near a vehicle's limits by simple economics, (as I have done for years) then one must use extreme caution, extending braking distances and reducing speed appropriate to load and conditions to compensate. Even staying well within the manufacturer's recommendations doesn't give you license to drive a heavily loaded truck like a sports car - as I see inexperienced drivers do all too often.
Chip
Terry and Jo said
08:28 PM Jan 2, 2014
Chip,
Most of the DRV's come in less than the 20,000 lb weight. The only ones rated at 20,000 pounds or more are the Elite Suites and those models that are longer than 38 feet long. Our 2010 Mobile Suites is 38.5 feet long and has a GVWR of only 18,500 lbs.
However, your truck numbers are confusing me. What you are saying is that yours has a payload capacity of 1950 lbs. However, I have a pdf file for the 2008 Ford Super Duty trucks that show better weight capacities. Not knowing what your truck's size parameters are, here is an image showing the info from that brochure for the F250.
To add for your information, here is an image from the same brochure showing the weights for travel trailers that are supposed to be for the F250. Remember that some of these numbers are "towing weights" and are only to be used as a rough guide.
By the way, if you'd like to have a pdf file copy of this brochure, send me a private message with your e-mail address and I'll send you a copy.
Terry
Sushidog said
07:19 AM Jan 3, 2014
Thanks Terry and Joe! You guys are the best.
2,730 lbs makes much more sense for my supercab LB F-250. I got the lower raing from this link: http://fifthwheelst.com/documents/ford/2008RVTTgdeSep08.pdf Reading page 6 of this PDF again the chart for the maximum weight for a slide in camper for my truck model is actually only 1,900 lbs. I assumed that this was the cargo capacity. I guess this is inaccurate.
It looks like I can put a 300lb camper top on it afterall and not sweat the petty stuff (or pet the sweaty stuff).
I don't have to figure out how to make one out of cardboard and balsa wood with helium ballons for insullation. (I couldn't find any unobtanium to make one. It's pretty hard to get these days.)
Chip
Terry and Jo said
07:31 PM Jan 3, 2014
The reason that unobtainium is so hard to find is because it is an excellent material to build presses for turning sour grapes into "whine." And everyone knows that "whine" seems to be much more popular than wine.
Glad we could help with some of the information, and I'm especially glad that you won't have to be so stringent on your materials because of weight.
I guess to start, I'd better describe my plans to let everyone know the purpose and planned use of the truck topper I'm proposing.
I plan on full-timing in a few years using my recently purchased 2008 F-250 super-cab long-bed 6.4. I will be towing a yet unpurchased travel trailer, for snowbird use, wintering in warmer climes and traveling north and to higher altitudes when the heat down south gets oppressive - not unlike many here. I plan on moving monthly, budget permitting. I have 2 tiny motorcycles (125cc Honda CT70 clones for around town errands, local sightseeing, etc.) that I plan on carrying in the truck bed along with a couple gas cans, tools, generator, and whatever other small items that my truck's remaining weight limit will allow. I've done the weight calculations based on my proposed trailer's realistic tongue weight, and I should have just enough capacity to do the job, but little left over.
OK now here's my 2 designs:
First is an aerodynamic topper designed to maximize my non-towing MPG. My plan is to integrate a 4 x 8 ft loading ramp into the sloping top of the camper. This can be used to load the bikes and the generator. The handlebars fold down on the bikes so they will handily fit under the top. The ramp comes off to allow unlimited headroom when riding the bikes into the bed of the truck. Both proposed campers will be built using exterior 1/4" plywood on a light-weight 2x2 frame (both glued and screwed). The topper and ramp will be coated with roll-on bed-liner for additional strength and durability. This topper has the advantages of better fuel mileage when unfettered by my TT and maybe 100-120lbs weight savings compared to camper #2. The disadvantage is towing MPG and less storage volume (though I don't think I will be able to utilize the additional storage volume of the larger topper due to weight constraints.)
Here's a crude drawing of topper #1 so you can kinda visualize what I'm talking about:
Design #2 is more conventional being a boxy topper the height of the cab with a folding loading ramp making up the rear door. However here's the twist. If I go with this design I will top this shell with a flip-up flat fiberglass truck bed topper that hinges in the front directly behind the top of the cab - just on top of the wooden box rather than on the bed rails. Now here's the kicker - when the topper is raised I would have flip up triangular shaped walls that could be erected, along with a fold-down back wall to make an gently sloping air foil to direct air over the camper similar to those used on an 18 wheeler to improve aerodynamics while towing. This camper will be a bit heavier, and it may hurt the truck's aerodynamics slightly when not towing but should make the TT easier to tow. It also provides a little more room to store light weight, bulky items, like linen, blankets, lawn chairs, etc.
Here's a drawing to illustrate:
What say ye, experienced full-timers? Which concept would you choose? Any improvements or suggestions (other than to get my head examined)?
Chip
-- Edited by Sushidog on Saturday 28th of December 2013 04:21:04 PM
Yes, I think design #2 will be more aerodynamic while towing, but what about the times when not towing? I'm thinking that the poorer aerodynamics of design #2 when not towing (and the extra 100lbs I'll always be hauling around) won't be that significant as most non-towing use as a full-timer will be the short, low-speed trips for groceries, where aerodynamics won't significantly impact my fuel costs. However the 100+lbs of extra weight of the heavier design will mean 100 less lbs of stuff I can own and carry. Decisions, decisions.
Chip
do you need frugal........or is money no object in the long run..........................IMHO
What would you use to protect and waterproof the wood?
What about something like this: www.walmart.com/ip/Kool-Seal-White-Elastomeric-Roof-Coating/17210942
or this: www.thepaintstore.com/Gaco_Roof_Silicone_Roof_Products_p/gr1600.htm
The latter has a 50 yr warranty, so it should well outlast me.
Chip
If you go with design number two with the hinge at the front, be sure and allow for sealing in some way around that hinge so that you don't have leaks.
Terry
I haven't thought about glassing it. I'm sure that would add even more weight, which I'm trying to avoid - though it would look slick. The reason I'm looking at a plastic tonneau cover versus a fiberglass one is it is about 1/2 the weight. If I could glue coroplast to the frame rather than plywood I would do it, but I'm afraid it wouldn't hold up.
Chip
These caps required at least two strong folks, preferably 3, to remove. They were heavy and bulky.
Both trucks averaged 10 MPG when not towing and 6 MPG when towing. The change in MPG wasn't noticeable with the caps on or off ... probably due to other conditions like wind, geography and loads.
You may find that buying a used cap off of e-bay or craigslist will be less work, cost and not affect your mileage.
Thanks for the advise. Weight is a big concern. I've researched high camper tops as you describe, and one for my long bed will weigh about 300 lbs. From the material weight including a flip-up plastic toneau cover I calculate I can build one for 165-175 lbs.
Here's how the weight breaks down:
Rated payload weight with 1-150lb driver and one 150lb passenger 1950 lbs
Tongue (max weight 10% of GVWR of trailer) 1100 lbs
Hitch 65 lbs
Excess passenger and inside cargo (pet) weight 250 lbs
2 mini-motorcycles 320 lbs
Honda eu3000is generator w/oil and fuel 150 lbs
Spare fuel 1-6 gallon can 40 lbs
Ramp 70 lbs
Topper 175 lbs
Total 2170 lbs
-1950 lbs
220 lbs overweight!
Now obviously, Ford's 1950 lb carrying capacity is hedging as there are people who carry over twice this much (using air bags, or helper springs of course), so I'm not really worried about 200 lbs as I will be well within my rear axle limit (with a well adjusted weight distributing hitch.) But I really don't have any room to spare without getting a smaller trailer. I don't want to get a bigger truck because of MPG (and taxes) of the smaller, lighter rig. It looks like it's time for us and the animals to go on a diet. I could always pull out the rear seats, and maybe I could remove the bumpers to save weight..... (Plus I haven't counted removing the tail gate, which the rear wall/ramp will replace.) Of course I could always start drilling holes. ;)
Chip
-- Edited by Sushidog on Tuesday 31st of December 2013 05:41:36 PM
Here's a curious fact that I can't wrap my mind around. Ford says that my F-250 can pull a 16,000 lb fifth wheel. Now I don' t know about every hitch, but a 16k Reese fifth wheel slider weighs in at a little over 150 lbs (which I assume is about average.) The pin weight on a fifth wheel ranges from 15-20% of the weight of the fiver (according to the Ford brochure.) So estimating on the light side at 15% pin weight = 2,400 lbs + 150 lb hitch = 2,550 lbs of bed weight or 600 lbs over Ford's published 1,950 carrying capacity for my truck. Go figure.
Chip
changingears.com/rv-sec-calc-trailer-weight-fw.shtml
The point of my last post, is though Ford says my F-250 6.4 can pull a 16,000 lb fiver, I can't crunch the numbers to produce a scenario, given the vehicle's other far too conservative weight ratings where its possible. Yet I'm sure there are folks out there towing 16,000 UVW fivers, loaded down to 20,000 lbs, who have been doing so for years. Would I do that? Absolutely not, however would I pull, say a 14,000 lb (loaded) fiver, which is one ton less than they say it will pull, with a 20% pin weight of 2,800 lbs - which is 850 lbs more than its bed rating (with air bags, of course, so it doesn't sag.) Is this by the book? No. Would I feel unsafe ding so? Well anything can be unsafe, if done irresponsibly, but people pull bigger loads than this every day, responsibly, with far less capable trucks.
Back in the 60's my dad had a little 6 cylinder GMC 1/2 ton pickup - you know, the old tiny, stepside model. Every Wednesday he'd load it down with 3,000 lbs of oysters and drive about 200 miles to deliver his load. He did this for over a decade - with the same truck with no issues other than normal, routine maintenance and repairs, like tires, brakes, clutch plates, hoses and belts - never even a broken spring or even a bad rear end.
Towing a 16,000 fiver is something I never plan to do. At most I will be hauling a 7,500 lb UVW TT (probably about 10k lbs loaded.) I do think Ford is optimistic when they say it can reliably pull 16,000 lbs, but they are overly conservative when they say their 3/4 ton diesel truck won't carry a 2,000 lb load (even without pulling anything). IMHO I don't want to start an argument, as I know there are many people who think you need a HDT to pull a pop-up, and if that makes them feel better then that's OK, but experience tells me as long as I don't exceed the axle, wheel and tire ratings, or the GVWR, exceeding the manufacturer recommended carrying capacity by a reasonable amount won't hurt a thing.
But maybe I'm wrong. I'm willing to listen to anyone who can tell me of a real world experience where going a couple hundred pounds over the manufacturer weight rating, in any vehicle, caused them any problems whatsoever.
Chip
how much longer do you think its going to be before D.O.T see's $$$$ in placing Rvers on the side of the road with portable scales for being overweight and unsafe.
Please dont get me wrong........but if the instructions say dont do this..and do this......I would think alot of testing and engineering was put into it.
I know of a couple that had a Ford F350 dually towing a Mobile Suites. As we know, DRV Suites models are heavier than most trailers. They were approaching an intersection after a light rain when the traffic light changed on them. They were unable to stop for the light, but fortunately, the folks that were in the vehicles that had green lights saw what was happening and didn't go out into the intersection.
That couple has since traded their F350 for an MDT. And yes, their trailer brakes were working.
Now, with all that said, I can't say what their weight capacity was in comparison to their actual weight, but there is a reason that many of us talk about having "more truck than needed" instead of "having too much trailer." I've heard stories all my life about folks saying that their trucks "did just fine." Personally, I prefer to have a "safety cushion" with regards to weight and weight capacities.
I remember there being a bit of "sudden learning" over on the forums that are related to the DRV Suites products when a gentleman that did RV wheel-by-wheel weighing at rallies provided a document that had the results of those weights on DRV's. His last comments were that 100% of the single rear wheel trucks were overweight, based on their door "data plates." Then he got the real attention when he stated that 60% of the dual rear wheeled trucks were also overweight.
That is part of the reason that we insisted on "at least" a Ford F450 for our 2010 Mobile Suites.
Terry
For instance, let's say I'm towing my Aliner with my car at 170% of the manufacturer's recommended towing capacity, as I frequently do. What laws am I breaking, assuming I operate in a safe manner, as I always have? The axle, wheel and tire load ratings aren't exceeded, neither is the hitch rating or tongue weight excessive. The sport tuned suspension doesn't sag and my SS's 4 wheel, anti-lock, disk brakes coupled with my trailer brakes will stop in less distance than a standard model Cobalt with standard brakes even without a trailer, let alone the 1,000 lb trailer that they are rated to tow. I have only exceeded the recommended towing capacity of the vehicle, nothing else. If something on the vehicle breaks as a result then it's all on me, not Chevy. Of course it's all on me anyway after using it for over a quarter of a million miles.
Now operating in an unsafe manner is quite another thing. If I was speeding, driving recklessly or too fast for conditions (like in driving rain, snow or on icy roads) then even an unloaded vehicle with no trailer might deserve a ticket if they are risking their lives and others in such a manner.
I think the example of the F-350 not being able to stop because he was grossly overloaded is a good example of this reckless behavior. I'm sure he was far more than 200 lbs overloaded - perhaps several thousand pounds overweight and he didn't slow down sufficiently taking his load into account. I don't plan on towing above 55 mph, even within my vehicle's tow limits, and I may not tow at all under adverse conditions, especially in the mountains or in heavy crosswinds.
However even greatly exceeding the F-350's weight limits, in the previous example, still didn't reportedly damage the truck. It only affected its ability to stop, exceeding the braking capacity of the rig. I'll bet if he reduced his speed by only 10-15 mph he would have been able to stop, even though he was foolishly towing thousands of lbs beyond what his truck was rated for. Would exceeding the carrying capacity of my F-250 by 200 lbs significantly diminish its braking capacity, especially when the trailer I'll be towing will be thousands of lbs under what Ford says it can pull (and safely stop)? I doubt it. I also don't think this is a ticketable offense - at least not in the USA. Now I have heard that Canadian cops strictly enforce truck weights and measures with random vehicle stops, but since I'll never set foot on their soil, even to travel through to Alaska, mainly because of their gun laws but also because it's far too cold :) it won't affect me. They can technically pull over and inspect trucks that they have reasonable cause are violating other safety and emission laws too. But if you don't give them cause, like belching black smoke or have sagging springs or worn out shocks it will be unreasonable search and seizure and they'll need a warrant to proceed. I'm surprised they get away with random insurance checks in some states, as this also violates unreasonable search and seizure, IMHO. Ah, but what do I know? ;)
Chip
Did you know if you are involved in an accident whether you are at fault or not you could be found responsible and at fault and your insurance can cancel and not pay.
rvweigh.com/index.html
Im hoping Howard will step in with his expertise in How's and why's so you dont get caught up in opinions.
So I am correct then. Since the data plate on the vehicle does not say anything about carrying capacity (only axle weight limits and GVWR) nor does it say anything about how much my truck can tow. My RAWR is 6,100lbs and GVWR is 9800lbs. Even though Ford says that the carrying capacity is only 1950 lbs, as long as neither of these 2 numbers are exceeded then I'm good to go to put say 2,400lbs in the bed (as I doubt that the front capacity will not be close before the GVWR is exceeded.) Also I could legally tow a 14,000 lb travel trailer or a 18,000 lb fiver (not that I ever would) as long as the data plate weight specs are not exceeded, even though Ford suggests that it should not tow more than 12,500 lbs for a TT and 16,000lbs for a fiver - this is just a suggestion and not a legal limit. My doctor suggests that I lose weight too, but I don't listen to him either, as he can't send the weight police after my fat butt either. :)
So I can drive drunk, hopped up on drugs, with an expired safety ispection sticker, bald tires and worn-out brakes and my insuance must pay any and all claims (up to my policy limits.) But if I am 10 lbs over one of the weight limits on the data plate they can refuse payment even though I paid all my premiums? How is that possible? Don't we buy insurance to protect us from screwing up? If I didn't mess up why would I need insurance to begin with? I've heard the claim that insurants can deny coverage for being overweight before, but I don't see how they can do this legally? Wouldn't they have to put this wording somewhere in their insurance policy? And if so why don't they deny claims for drunk drivers, drug abusers, speeders or others in violation. It would seem that these other factors create a far greater safety risk than a truck 100lbs over his GVWR (yet everything else within the legal limits.) This sounds like a scare tactic to me. If they can in fact do this, then it must be spelled out in bold letters in your policy. I haven't found it on mine? Is it on anyone elses? If so you might want to switch carriers. I have GEICO.
Chip
Im out......
Chip,
You are "assuming" that the DRV owner was overweight by thousands. I never said that he was, and in fact, stated that I didn't know his capacities. Also, considering that he was approaching a traffic light, it presumes that he was not out in the country somewhere, so I imagine his speed was probably less than you are considering.
What I did was give you a "real world" scenario of towing, just as you asked for, but you may not wish to hear it. However, whatever you do, keep in mind that others on the road are also counting on others to tow responsibly. I have years of experience with all kinds of trucks and towing of trailers, including 18-wheelers. Believe me, I've also seen the results of what happens when someone doesn't tow responsibly.
Terry
Sure, my family is on the road too, so we all have "skin in the game" and want others to live up to their safety obligations too. I'm not suggesting that anyone should do something they feel is unsafe or even questionable, but there's more to safe towing than specs on a sheet of paper. There's also the exercise of good judgment, tempering one's towing speed to weather and road conditions taking into account not only weight, but the mechanical condition of the tow vehicle and many other factors, such as terrain, driver experience, reflexes, alertness and overall physical condition. I'm going to tow a lot slower after a long day when it's dark, rainy, and I'm tired and sleepy then when I'm fresh behind the wheel, on a beautiful clear morning. How about you?
Here's another curious fact. Two new Ford F-150 models have a payload capacity of 3,100 lbs or more - over 60% more than my F-250, which has a beefier frame, bigger brakes, etc. Which one would you feel safer driving with 2,000 lbs of payload in the back? Which truck do you think would better control that load in an emergency stop/maneuver? Better yet, which truck do you think will better control their maximum rated load, an F-150 with 3,100 lbs in the bed or an F-250 with 1950 lbs in the bed? I think the answer is obvious.
I'm not saying that someone should grossly exceed the manufacturer's recommendations (obviously, legal data plate limits must be obeyed), just that numbers in a sales brochure (possibly put their by sales people with quite different motivations then design engineers) may not accurately represent real world towing performance. I agree that bigger is always better when it comes to handling heavy loads, however if you are forced to tow near a vehicle's limits by simple economics, (as I have done for years) then one must use extreme caution, extending braking distances and reducing speed appropriate to load and conditions to compensate. Even staying well within the manufacturer's recommendations doesn't give you license to drive a heavily loaded truck like a sports car - as I see inexperienced drivers do all too often.
Chip
Chip,
Most of the DRV's come in less than the 20,000 lb weight. The only ones rated at 20,000 pounds or more are the Elite Suites and those models that are longer than 38 feet long. Our 2010 Mobile Suites is 38.5 feet long and has a GVWR of only 18,500 lbs.
However, your truck numbers are confusing me. What you are saying is that yours has a payload capacity of 1950 lbs. However, I have a pdf file for the 2008 Ford Super Duty trucks that show better weight capacities. Not knowing what your truck's size parameters are, here is an image showing the info from that brochure for the F250.
To add for your information, here is an image from the same brochure showing the weights for travel trailers that are supposed to be for the F250. Remember that some of these numbers are "towing weights" and are only to be used as a rough guide.
By the way, if you'd like to have a pdf file copy of this brochure, send me a private message with your e-mail address and I'll send you a copy.
Terry
Thanks Terry and Joe! You guys are the best.
2,730 lbs makes much more sense for my supercab LB F-250. I got the lower raing from this link: http://fifthwheelst.com/documents/ford/2008RVTTgdeSep08.pdf Reading page 6 of this PDF again the chart for the maximum weight for a slide in camper for my truck model is actually only 1,900 lbs. I assumed that this was the cargo capacity. I guess this is inaccurate.
It looks like I can put a 300lb camper top on it afterall and not sweat the petty stuff (or pet the sweaty stuff).
I don't have to figure out how to make one out of cardboard and balsa wood with helium ballons for insullation. (I couldn't find any unobtanium to make one. It's pretty hard to get these days.)
Chip
The reason that unobtainium is so hard to find is because it is an excellent material to build presses for turning sour grapes into "whine." And everyone knows that "whine" seems to be much more popular than wine.
Glad we could help with some of the information, and I'm especially glad that you won't have to be so stringent on your materials because of weight.
Good luck.
Terry