Size of pickup towing capacity to Trailer size and weight
Farm Pair said
04:16 PM Jul 4, 2013
We have a F250 Super Duty Crew Cab Lariat with the 6.7 Diesel and 3.55 rear end. We are looking for a 5th wheel. We are retired and want to do more longer trips, but not full timers. We will definitely travel into the western Rocky Mountains. We have researched several campers and have been mindful of GVWR. Our truck has a capacity of 15,000 Lbs, but I expect we need to stay some below that weight. We have recently looked at some Jayco Premier 351 and 361's and Heartland Big Country 3450TS. It maybe too big, but depends upon how much we put in. Our total GCVWR is 23,300, per manufacture. We would like a King size bed. Appreicate your insights and recommendations. We want quality, but will keep in mind costs. We have had 5th wheels before and currently have a 30 foot, with a front in water leak we will sell privately, a 2004 Cougar. We have looked at a Montana and some others such a Laredo and another Cougar. They vary from near 34 footers to near 40. We have never been above a 30 before and readily take some experienced advice. Thank you,
Jim
Terry and Jo said
05:10 PM Jul 4, 2013
Jim,
First of all, welcome to the RV Dreams forums. You will find this to be a good source of information with regards to RV's and the RV lifestyle. The folks here have a wealth of knowledge about almost every type of RV available. They also tend to be very friendly, helpful, and encouraging. We all look forward to any questions or comments you may have as we all tend to learn from each other.
As for the F250, I'm a bit leery of that size of truck when one gets up over 30 feet. One really needs to have an idea of what one's truck will weight with cargo, passengers, and fuel as well as the "loaded" weight of the trailer that one is interested in. Then with those two weights, one needs to try to not go over the GCVW of the truck. While the truck may very well tow a large trailer, I always wonder whether a smaller size will safely "handle and stop" the larger trailers.
Jo and I used to have a gas-powered F250 and we owned both a 26-foot travel trailer and a 26-foot fifth wheel. Being a gas-powered truck, it seemed like it was always working hard to tow those two trailers. The other issue with an F250 is that they are SRW (single rear wheel) trucks. Since I've gone to a dually, I can tell a world of difference with handling and stability. Our trailer is 38 1/2 feet long and has a GVWR of 18,500. So, being one to want to have "more truck than I need" we chose to go with a Ford F450 because we also want to tow over the mountain passes of the Rockies.
With that in mind, if you are wanting to get up in the 34' to 40' trailers, I'd think that at least an F350 (if you want to stay with Ford) would be better for those sizes.
Good luck with your research and planning.
Terry
Farm Pair said
05:35 PM Jul 4, 2013
Terry,
Thank you, for responding. I have seen your comments on other forums.
Ford had made quite a response difference with the Power Edge Turbo Diesel F250. On a 3.55 Axle the GCWR is 23,500 and the SRW 4X4 Maximum loaded Trailer Weight Rating is 15,200. The label on the truck for GVWR is 10,000. We pulled our 30 footer to a dealer for an insurance estimate and it stayed in cruise most of the time on some decent Illinois rolling hills. It is a 2012 and has more features including towing with stability control and down hill built in braking control. In the travel we headed north into a fairly strong NE wind and held our driving very well. Our 5th wheel hitch capacity is near the 3200 to 3300 capacity and the dry hitch weight on several campers we have reviewed are near 2300 to 2500. I realize this is dry weight and how much is added with supplies and balancing on the 5th wheel is also a factor.
I do not discount your thoughts. I am wondering if the 30 footer is smaller than we can easily handle, but something in the 33 to 34 plus is okay and maybe the 38 and 39 footers are too much. I want reserve capacity as we want to use cruise as much as possible. The I-80 hills in Iowa or Missouri hills will challange anything and cruise is likely not a good option. This turbo diesel is built not to loose it power if loaded as designed. I do not know if a reserve capacity of 75 of 80% is fair? The new 5th wheels are lighter weight, but still heavy and some of the smaller ones still carry a lot of weight.
Farm Pair said
05:42 PM Jul 4, 2013
Terry,
One other question that you may well have some knowledge. If we called directly to the factory and talked to a factory rep would they provide a good answer, discussion on weighting a truck with a 5th wheel? I know they sell product, but would they be more straight on not over loading as compared to a sales person? If so, who would you try to talk to in a company that has the proper knowledge?
Jim
Terry and Jo said
06:49 PM Jul 4, 2013
Jim,
After posting above, I got to thinking. Keep in mind that I don't know a lot about the newer F250's with the 6.7L diesel. Thus, I don't know if they have an engine or exhaust brake. Nor do I know if they are equipped with the transmission that has the "tow/haul" feature built into it. If any of those are present in your truck, and your comment leads me to believe that one may, then that would go a long way towards helping with handling and braking with a trailer.
Also, keep in mind that I've not looked at the weights of the trailers you have mentioned, so I'm really clueless there as well.
With regards to contacting the factory, if you can, I'd suggest setting up and attending a factory tour of the brands/models that interest you. That way, you can be face to face with someone when they answer your questions. I've heard of stories where factory reps haven't really been up-front and honest in their answers. Personally, I take most all comments from both factory reps and "unknown" dealerships with a grain of salt.
What you might also do is look for some owner's associations or forums where you can go read about what owners are actually saying about their trailers. With most of them, if not all, they usually welcome folks that want to register for the forums and ask questions. We did that when we were researching for our RV. Sometimes those owners can give you a lot more realistic answer as to how much their pin weights actually are. After all, everything that goes into the basement is going to have its weight split between the trailer wheels and the truck's rear axle.
Now, one other thing with regards to owner's associations and forums. Forums tend to draw people that are looking for an answer for a problem. If one only notices a lot of comments as to problems, it can lead one to think that the brand/model is not very good. However, I would imagine that there are a lot more happy customers out there than are on the forums. If you register to participate on a forum, you can always ask the participant that if they were to buy another RV, would they buy the same brand/model that they currently have, and if not, why not.
Dry weight listed on a website is "almost" a useless number as it won't include any options that one adds to their trailer. Now, if you are going to buy off of a dealer's lot, ask if there is a sheet with the paperwork that lists the weight of the trailer after it had been built. I don't know if a manufacturer doing a weight after built is a "standard" practice or not. I do know that when we took possession of our Mobile Suites, it came with a sheet showing our "after-build" weight. Ours also has a sticker on the pin box that lists our cargo carrying weight. In our case, we had a washer and dryer added after delivery to our dealer, so we had to subtract that weight from our "normal" cargo carrying weight to have an idea of how much more we could add to the trailer.
Jo worried herself a lot that she was loading too much "stuff" into the coach, so after we got everything loaded and ready to move our coach to the mobile home park where we live, I took it to a feed store nearby and weighed it in such a way as to get weights for each and every axle on both the truck and the trailer. Jo was under the trailer's GVWR by about 600 or 700 lbs. However, since we are "static" full-timers, I'm fearful that we've "added back" some weight.
Since you say you are "farm pair," and that you might be related to agriculture, are there any feed stores in the area where you would be looking? If so, ask the dealer you are working with as to whether they would allow one to hook on to one and get both the truck and trailer weighed. All they can say is "no" that would be detrimental. Otherwise, all you can do is sometimes take the dry weight and add what you think your "cargo" would weigh. Since you won't be full-timing, your cargo weight will likely be a lot less than what most of us have. That is, unless your idea of part-time RV'ing still would entail more than a couple of weeks of camping.
Hope this answer hasn't been too "long-winded" for your questions, but I generally tend to add information as I think of it when I am writing answers.
Terry
Farm Pair said
07:33 PM Jul 4, 2013
Terry,
I will interested if others with the same F250 reply to our question. The F250 Super Duty we have comes with a Hill Descent Control (on 4 wheel drive) and with an Advance Trac "roll stability control". The hill descent controls is to help maintain vehicle speed on a steep incline at speeds between 2 and 20 mph. The truck comes with a Tow/Haul which integrates anti lock braking and trailer sway control.
Today's trailers are to have a specific dryweight, often near the entrance door that shows the dry weight as shipped from the factory. Does not include batteries, etc and anything the dealer has added, such as special front hitches etc. One has to ask the dealer what has been added. Still, the posted weight is a good guide. I am also concern about quality and have tried to do much research.
I will look at forums from users of specific company campers. I am aware of being able to take to our local grain elevator to weigh.
I am convinced the new Ford F250 is designed as a power work horse and is capable of much. It is designed to get out and work and tow. The turbo will help much in the mountains and thin air as the turbo will help keep the horsepower available, but always at a mpg cost. The diesel also provides more power. Still, I am looking and asking about it's limitations.
My wife and I are considering a factory tour. We are 4 to 5 hours away and they usuallyare only certain days a week.
Jim
Terry and Jo said
11:47 PM Jul 4, 2013
Jim,
Another advantage of the factory tour is so you can see as much as possible of the construction of a unit, thus an idea of its quality. I know of a number of folks that went on multiple tours with one brand in mind, only to find that another brand had better quality. A factory tour may also let one see the frames of the trailers before anything is put on them. Since the frame, suspension, wheels and tires all serve as the foundation of the trailer, it is a good thing to always consider that when buying, even if one isn't going full-time.
You may have to excuse me with regards to trucks, but I've also been in the agriculture/agribusiness field as well as being a commercial truck driver with both bobtails and 18-wheelers. Because of that, I personally like to have overkill with my trucks. I know of a number of folks with trailers as heavy as ours that are towing with F350's or GM or Dodge 3500 series trucks. However, for my peace of mind, I'd want nothing less than an F450 for ours.
Off topic from your needs and desires, I may get to test out our F450 and our 18,500 lb trailer on a couple of mountain passes in a few months. We hope to tow up to the Colorado Springs area for a two-week vacation. While I've heard numerous folks say that the F450's do fine, I always tend to be a bit leery with those things. Which is all good because the worst thing to do is become overconfident and put oneself into a dangerous circumstance.
Terry
Jack Mayer said
02:32 PM Jul 5, 2013
Terry, if you get up to the Springs let me know....we are in Woodland Park, just up the "hill". Where are you going to stay? Mountaindale?
Terry and Jo said
09:33 PM Jul 5, 2013
That is our plan, Jack.
However, I've yet to contact them about a reservation, so I probably ought to do that this weekend. Our plans are to arrive the end of September and stay for two weeks. I'm not set in stone yet on arrival and departure dates, but we will likely start up on the 27th of September and start back around October 11. Will you still be up there then? It would be great if we could meet up.
One of Jo's sisters already lives in Colorado and her other sister is moving up to Colorado Springs next month. While we will have to spend some time with the relatives, I'm really hoping to be free to travel around and get some pictures of the fall colors.
Terry
Howard said
03:13 AM Jul 6, 2013
Farm Pair, Glad you are thinking about safety. In the last two years that we've been weighing RVs, I can tell you that most of the single rear wheel pick-ups towing large fifth wheels that we've weighed have been overloaded on the truck's rear axle. They may be within their towing capacity, but they are quite often over the GAWR on the rear axle.
Today's pick-up engines are better and they tow beautifully. However, the concern is always braking and stability. Putting too much weight behind a SRW can compromise both of those.
Now, with that said, my personal opinion (and that's all it is) is I would like to keep the fifth wheel weight for that truck down to about 13,000 lbs or less. Keep in mind that the maximum loaded trailer weight in the towing charts is based on the truck alone with only the driver and full fuel, oil, and necessary fluids. The towing capacity has to be reduced by the weight of other passengers and cargo in the truck (such as toolboxes, auxiliary fuel tanks, generators, camping stuff, etc.).
Based on your posts so far, I'm betting you'll get something that's both safe and comfortable. I won't be scared riding on the same road with you.
Jack Mayer said
04:45 AM Jul 6, 2013
Terry we will leave here Oct 3. We close the park at the end of September.
Farm Pair said
03:14 PM Jul 6, 2013
Howard, I certainly appreciate your input. Let me throw you some quick figures. I give two approaches. First, some facts about the truck. The GCVWR is 23,500 The GVW is 10,000. That leaves 13,500. I used an arbitary figure for reserve capacity of 80% and came up with 10,800 for towing. I subtracted another 1000 lbs for added weight to the trailer, which leaves me near 10,000 lbs the trailer could weigh and I still have the excess below the trucks GVW.
In checking directly with the Ford dealer the curb weight is a total of 7443. Front axle is 4515 and rear axle is 2928. I am expecting only myself, my wife, a sheltie, the 5th wheel hitch and a smaller cooler or two for some water bottles and quick snacks, and some other light supplies and applied another 550 lbs. for this. Some is on the front axle and some on the rear. It maybe fair to spilt this amount. 2928 plus 275 is essentially 3200 lbs. The trucks gross rear axle limit is 6100, with front axle at 5200 and the total limit for the truck at 10,000.
The heaviest King Pin weight of the larger trailers we have considered is about 2300. If we were to put 1000 to 1200 lbs inside the trailer I am not sure how much of that transfers to the King pin and rear axle. Storages tend to be under the front end of the trailer, but inside we distribute that weight, at least some front to rear. Meaning groceries, bedding, clothing, etc. 6100 lbs less the 3200 lbs leaves 2900 lbs of potential King Pin weight with a need for a safe margin. How much I do not know, but the 2300 is likely near a safer limit.
Ford says the maximum 5th wheel limit for this truck is 15,200. Subtracted from the 23,500 total GCVW that is 8300 lbs and add back in the 550 lbs and we have a total of over 8800 lbs., which seems to balance against the truck. We do not want to load the truck near the 10,000 lb limit, but 8000 to 8500 lbs maybe okay. We seem to be okay on rear axle even in the larger RV's.
From tables I have studied closely some of the larger 38 to 40 foot trailers we feel we could afford have a dry weight of 10,700 to 11,430, without any extra added we need to confirm. The trailer GVW is often is 4000 lbs plus, but I do not feel we even want to come close to this amount. One dealer said the average cargo load is around 1250 lbs for usual campers. I do not have any values to deny or confirm that amount, but seems reasonable. Full timers may have more. I question if we would have that much. We do not plan on a generator. I do take tools, but likely put them in the camper storage for security.
As I said earlier the 2012 F250 Super Duty Power Edge with the 6.7 diesel turbo charged is a power house. It has big 20 inch tires and was really built for the commercial contractor who needs to pull some heavy loads under some extreme conditions. It has a built in sway control and built in braking system. The truck has a Tow/Haul feature and built on the dash is an extra slide brake controller. The truck has a 6 speed automatic, plus a manual override with a first and second gear, with either automatic or manual high and low 4X4. It seems to be built for pulling up hill and designed to greatly assist going down hill. My wife and I in smaller towing RV's have taken on Monarch Pass of 11,300 feet going up and down and that was many years ago with a vehicle that was not equipped to work in such thin air. This truck with the turbo and a 400 horse power engine, plus almost 800 foot lbs of torgue should handle mountains with more ease that many of Fords earlier models of even larger size.
We have also have given serious consideration to some 33 to 35 foot RV's to cut down on over all weight. most come in near 10,000 lbs dryweight. We also then cut out some features that would be nice to have and I am sure in some respects also some quality. We do not feel we can justify the more premium RV's such as Jerry has as we may use it on weekends and maybe 3 or 4 trips of 3 or 4 weeks out at time.
Some of the larger rigs we have viewed are going to push the 12,000 lb level and we are not sure that is wise. I would love to have a King Size bed, but only a couple of models I have found fit in the smaller catagory, such as a Keystone Laredo and a Keystone Montana Mountaineer. A Heartland Big Country has a King at 12,000 lbs dry. We have to decide what is important. Some have built in vacums, ceiling fans, etc. They are loading features today to make people feel the comforts of home. There is the corner shower and the 3X5 shower.
I need to quit. If you or Jerry have any advice or something else we should be reviewing, please speak your mind. I through a lot of figures out and apologize if I did too much. I also am nut on getting the fuel mileage I can get and tend not to dry fast. We are going to try and visit a factory or two.
Jerry, I professionally managed Ag assets, essentially farms for 23 years and held a Brokers license for 25 years and still do. I specialize in farmland real estate and not in houses. I do not sell houses. Both my wife and I were raised on farms and we live on her family farms. Except for a stint in the Army and a year in Viet Nam we have lived in West Central Illinois all of our lives, but our children and grand kids live in Chicago Suburbs, Texas and California. Another reason to travel. We love to see this country and have seen much already.
Thank you both, again, for your comments.
Jim and Ellen
kb0zke said
02:51 AM Jul 7, 2013
Farm Pair, it sounds like you will be quite pleased with whatever you end up with because you are doing your homework.
Fifty years ago I read and reread Wally Byam's book Trailer Travel Here and Abroad. One of the points that stuck with me all of these years is that the weight of the trailer should never exceed the weight of the tow vehicle. Granted, 50 years ago very few vehicles had disc brakes, and trailer brakes weren't anything to brag about, either. Today I suspect that most trailers exceed the weight of the vehicle that is towing them, sometimes by quite a bit.
By all means visit some factories. When we started our journey we were so convinced that we would end up with a Heartland Bighorn that we bought an mpg as our "learner" rig. Long story short, we ended up with a motor home because that fit our needs best. If you are serious about a 5'er, make sure you tour DRV, but be warned: very little else will measure up.
Terry and Jo said
03:18 AM Jul 7, 2013
David,
Jim mentioned in his first post here that they would not be full-timing. While the DRV would be a good unit for anyone, even their 32-foot models would likely weigh too much for his truck.
Jim,
Not to be picky, but my name is Terry, not Jerry. But don't worry. I used to work in a place where we took reservations for cars over the phone. I've been called every "arry" name in the book.
Keep in mind that you also need to take into consideration what a full tank of diesel weighs as well when looking at the truck's weight.
Terry
Farm Pair said
05:36 AM Jul 7, 2013
Terry, I apologize for using the wrong name. Every one like to see their correct name.
The curb weight does include a full tank. I checked that out and is in the calculations. Thanks for bringing this up.
Jim
Howard said
04:54 PM Jul 7, 2013
I'm sticking with my original suggestion - keep the total loaded trailer weight below 13,000 lbs. However, even if you can get a 38 - 40 foot trailer and stay within that trailer weight, I would still be hesitant to tow that length with a single rear wheel truck. It's simply not as stable in turns, high wind, and when you really need to stop something that long. Again, just my opinion.
You can expect 20 - 25% of the total loaded trailer weight to be pin weight. Using my maximum loader trailer weight of 13,000 lbs, that would give you a pin weight of 2,600 to 3,250. Using your figures of 3,200 lbs (unloaded rear axle weight plus cargo), you would be looking at a weight on your rear axle of 5,800 - 6,450 ... very close to or over your truck's rear axle weight rating of 6,100. Even at 12,000 lbs of fully loaded trailer weight, you could exceed your truck rear axle weight rating depending on where your pin weight comes in.
It looks to me like you need your trailer to have a dry weight of 10,000 to 11,000 pounds and you would be limited to 2,000 pounds of cargo (and add-ons) in the trailer. That would put you well under the truck's towing limit and very close to your truck's rear axle weight rating. With that said, I still wouldn't go to the 38 - 40 foot length. I would stick to the 35 foot and under range with the SRW F250. One more time, just my opinion.
Jack Mayer said
05:32 PM Jul 7, 2013
If it matters, my figures (and figuring) agreed with Howards. I'd stick to a trailer in the 10-11K range, and that should put you in comfortable position to carry some "stuff". :)
Terry and Jo said
02:38 AM Jul 9, 2013
Jack Mayer wrote:
Terry we will leave here Oct 3. We close the park at the end of September.
Jack,
Things have changed a bit. After our incident with the tree, Jo is insistent that our insurance be full replacement, so we are looking to change insurance providers. With that going on, it looks like we will NOT be towing our fifth wheel to Colorado Springs because of the need for extra cash for the insurance.
However, we will still be going up, but will stay with Jo's sister that is moving up to Peyton, CO next month. Our plans for the dates are the same, so as time gets closer, I'll get back in touch with you so we can see if we can arrange a meet with the two of you.
I'd really like to get to meet you two face to face.
Terry
scrappy said
12:47 PM Jul 9, 2013
This looked like the place to toss this WOW moment in.
Guy pulled into the site we vacated.....had a HUGE 5-er. Looked huge. He walks down last night to introduce himself, he is a contractor and going to be here till next spring. Nice guy.
I asked about that fifth wheel, its a big'un! He said yeah, its a 40'er. (He pulled it in with a Chevy 3/4 ton). I asked how much it weighs. 17000 lbs with all of his tools in there.....*gulp*
Holy cow...............not sure how that 3/4 ton got that thing UP the mountain, but when he leaves, I am going to make sure Im at the top of the hill.....
wow.........
-- Edited by scrappy on Tuesday 9th of July 2013 12:47:48 PM
Bill and Linda said
10:19 PM Jul 9, 2013
scrappy wrote:
This looked like the place to toss this WOW moment in.
Guy pulled into the site we vacated.....had a HUGE 5-er. Looked huge. He walks down last night to introduce himself, he is a contractor and going to be here till next spring. Nice guy.
I asked about that fifth wheel, its a big'un! He said yeah, its a 40'er. (He pulled it in with a Chevy 3/4 ton). I asked how much it weighs. 17000 lbs with all of his tools in there.....*gulp*
Holy cow...............not sure how that 3/4 ton got that thing UP the mountain, but when he leaves, I am going to make sure Im at the top of the hill.....
wow.........
-- Edited by scrappy on Tuesday 9th of July 2013 12:47:48 PM
Yea, that is a Wow. As you may know, the Allison transmission and engine in 2500 diesel Chevy’s is the same as the 1- ton 3500 for each model year.It’s an Ox.But it isn’t pulling the trailer up the hill.That’s not the problem for the 2500 Chevy (or Fords, etc.)It’s what happens when he blows a tire on the rear and tries to control that trailer at speed without dual rear wheels on the truck among other things.That’s the problem with overloaded trucks.It’s not the “going up,” it’s the “coming down” and controlling the trailer that scares me – especially if you blow a tire. I’ve had a tire cut on a rock at a rest area, not a blowout, and ended up on 3 wheels in the back with the rig attached coming down the mountain Interstate out of Flagstaff, AZ. No problem whatsoever. But it would have been had I had single rear tires.
Farm Pair said
02:49 PM Jul 10, 2013
Terry and to all who have offered suggestions and comments.
I spent over a well over a hundred hours doing research on brands, models, etc. It is hard to decipher some differences.
I listened to your advice and we stayed away from a big rig. We wanted quality that would fit our needs, but knew we could not go to the rigs some you obviously live in.
We looked at a lot of different 5th wheels and dealers, plus researched on line the same and also looked pricing and what was being offered all around the country.
I learned Monday that one of the dealers had just brought in a new 2014 Montana High Country 318RE. We were seriously looking at another camper on their lot. Yesterday, we looked at the Montana and my wife said she like all of it. That's a good sign. Yes, it is a lighter version of the Montana, but has lots of good features and the quality appears to be above many others we viewed. It is 34 feet 6 inches in length.
The door sticker says 9240 lbs scaled weighed dry weight and the tongue weight dry is 1930, with two people considered in the total. I weighed what we carried on our previous 5th wheel and came in with less that 800 lbs. That was distributed over the front, middle and rear. The kitchen is over the axles, which is a lot of the weight. I weighed what goes in the pickup, including our hitch and it looks like we are less than 5100 lbs, plus anything we add to the king pin from our supplies in the trailer. The 5100 is towards the total 6100 rear wheel limit and leaves us 16.5% unloaded margin. By balancing the load on the 5th wheel I can minimize added king pin weight.
With 9240 (dry weight), plus say 1,000 added pounds I show that we have a gross weight margin of 32.6% against the towing capacity. I trust the two combinations will give us good safety pulling and braking down hill and provide and enjoyable ride.
Thanks for you input it was greatly appreciated and hopefully you will feel we listen.
An added note, the dealer had brought a close out 2013 from the factory and paid the 2013 price, but Montana shipped a 2014 instead. We were able to buy at the discounted 2013 price and get a new 2014, just delivered from the factory. We were the first to walk in the camper, except maybe an inspector from the local dealer at delivery.
We have a F250 Super Duty Crew Cab Lariat with the 6.7 Diesel and 3.55 rear end. We are looking for a 5th wheel. We are retired and want to do more longer trips, but not full timers. We will definitely travel into the western Rocky Mountains. We have researched several campers and have been mindful of GVWR. Our truck has a capacity of 15,000 Lbs, but I expect we need to stay some below that weight. We have recently looked at some Jayco Premier 351 and 361's and Heartland Big Country 3450TS. It maybe too big, but depends upon how much we put in. Our total GCVWR is 23,300, per manufacture. We would like a King size bed. Appreicate your insights and recommendations. We want quality, but will keep in mind costs. We have had 5th wheels before and currently have a 30 foot, with a front in water leak we will sell privately, a 2004 Cougar. We have looked at a Montana and some others such a Laredo and another Cougar. They vary from near 34 footers to near 40. We have never been above a 30 before and readily take some experienced advice. Thank you,
Jim
Jim,
First of all, welcome to the RV Dreams forums. You will find this to be a good source of information with regards to RV's and the RV lifestyle. The folks here have a wealth of knowledge about almost every type of RV available. They also tend to be very friendly, helpful, and encouraging. We all look forward to any questions or comments you may have as we all tend to learn from each other.
As for the F250, I'm a bit leery of that size of truck when one gets up over 30 feet. One really needs to have an idea of what one's truck will weight with cargo, passengers, and fuel as well as the "loaded" weight of the trailer that one is interested in. Then with those two weights, one needs to try to not go over the GCVW of the truck. While the truck may very well tow a large trailer, I always wonder whether a smaller size will safely "handle and stop" the larger trailers.
Jo and I used to have a gas-powered F250 and we owned both a 26-foot travel trailer and a 26-foot fifth wheel. Being a gas-powered truck, it seemed like it was always working hard to tow those two trailers. The other issue with an F250 is that they are SRW (single rear wheel) trucks. Since I've gone to a dually, I can tell a world of difference with handling and stability. Our trailer is 38 1/2 feet long and has a GVWR of 18,500. So, being one to want to have "more truck than I need" we chose to go with a Ford F450 because we also want to tow over the mountain passes of the Rockies.
With that in mind, if you are wanting to get up in the 34' to 40' trailers, I'd think that at least an F350 (if you want to stay with Ford) would be better for those sizes.
Good luck with your research and planning.
Terry
Terry,
Thank you, for responding. I have seen your comments on other forums.
Ford had made quite a response difference with the Power Edge Turbo Diesel F250. On a 3.55 Axle the GCWR is 23,500 and the SRW 4X4 Maximum loaded Trailer Weight Rating is 15,200. The label on the truck for GVWR is 10,000. We pulled our 30 footer to a dealer for an insurance estimate and it stayed in cruise most of the time on some decent Illinois rolling hills. It is a 2012 and has more features including towing with stability control and down hill built in braking control. In the travel we headed north into a fairly strong NE wind and held our driving very well. Our 5th wheel hitch capacity is near the 3200 to 3300 capacity and the dry hitch weight on several campers we have reviewed are near 2300 to 2500. I realize this is dry weight and how much is added with supplies and balancing on the 5th wheel is also a factor.
I do not discount your thoughts. I am wondering if the 30 footer is smaller than we can easily handle, but something in the 33 to 34 plus is okay and maybe the 38 and 39 footers are too much. I want reserve capacity as we want to use cruise as much as possible. The I-80 hills in Iowa or Missouri hills will challange anything and cruise is likely not a good option. This turbo diesel is built not to loose it power if loaded as designed. I do not know if a reserve capacity of 75 of 80% is fair? The new 5th wheels are lighter weight, but still heavy and some of the smaller ones still carry a lot of weight.
Terry,
One other question that you may well have some knowledge. If we called directly to the factory and talked to a factory rep would they provide a good answer, discussion on weighting a truck with a 5th wheel? I know they sell product, but would they be more straight on not over loading as compared to a sales person? If so, who would you try to talk to in a company that has the proper knowledge?
Jim
Jim,
After posting above, I got to thinking. Keep in mind that I don't know a lot about the newer F250's with the 6.7L diesel. Thus, I don't know if they have an engine or exhaust brake. Nor do I know if they are equipped with the transmission that has the "tow/haul" feature built into it. If any of those are present in your truck, and your comment leads me to believe that one may, then that would go a long way towards helping with handling and braking with a trailer.
Also, keep in mind that I've not looked at the weights of the trailers you have mentioned, so I'm really clueless there as well.
With regards to contacting the factory, if you can, I'd suggest setting up and attending a factory tour of the brands/models that interest you. That way, you can be face to face with someone when they answer your questions. I've heard of stories where factory reps haven't really been up-front and honest in their answers. Personally, I take most all comments from both factory reps and "unknown" dealerships with a grain of salt.
What you might also do is look for some owner's associations or forums where you can go read about what owners are actually saying about their trailers. With most of them, if not all, they usually welcome folks that want to register for the forums and ask questions. We did that when we were researching for our RV. Sometimes those owners can give you a lot more realistic answer as to how much their pin weights actually are. After all, everything that goes into the basement is going to have its weight split between the trailer wheels and the truck's rear axle.
Now, one other thing with regards to owner's associations and forums. Forums tend to draw people that are looking for an answer for a problem. If one only notices a lot of comments as to problems, it can lead one to think that the brand/model is not very good. However, I would imagine that there are a lot more happy customers out there than are on the forums. If you register to participate on a forum, you can always ask the participant that if they were to buy another RV, would they buy the same brand/model that they currently have, and if not, why not.
Dry weight listed on a website is "almost" a useless number as it won't include any options that one adds to their trailer. Now, if you are going to buy off of a dealer's lot, ask if there is a sheet with the paperwork that lists the weight of the trailer after it had been built. I don't know if a manufacturer doing a weight after built is a "standard" practice or not. I do know that when we took possession of our Mobile Suites, it came with a sheet showing our "after-build" weight. Ours also has a sticker on the pin box that lists our cargo carrying weight. In our case, we had a washer and dryer added after delivery to our dealer, so we had to subtract that weight from our "normal" cargo carrying weight to have an idea of how much more we could add to the trailer.
Jo worried herself a lot that she was loading too much "stuff" into the coach, so after we got everything loaded and ready to move our coach to the mobile home park where we live, I took it to a feed store nearby and weighed it in such a way as to get weights for each and every axle on both the truck and the trailer. Jo was under the trailer's GVWR by about 600 or 700 lbs. However, since we are "static" full-timers, I'm fearful that we've "added back" some weight.
Since you say you are "farm pair," and that you might be related to agriculture, are there any feed stores in the area where you would be looking? If so, ask the dealer you are working with as to whether they would allow one to hook on to one and get both the truck and trailer weighed. All they can say is "no" that would be detrimental. Otherwise, all you can do is sometimes take the dry weight and add what you think your "cargo" would weigh. Since you won't be full-timing, your cargo weight will likely be a lot less than what most of us have. That is, unless your idea of part-time RV'ing still would entail more than a couple of weeks of camping.
Hope this answer hasn't been too "long-winded" for your questions, but I generally tend to add information as I think of it when I am writing answers.
Terry
Terry,
I will interested if others with the same F250 reply to our question. The F250 Super Duty we have comes with a Hill Descent Control (on 4 wheel drive) and with an Advance Trac "roll stability control". The hill descent controls is to help maintain vehicle speed on a steep incline at speeds between 2 and 20 mph. The truck comes with a Tow/Haul which integrates anti lock braking and trailer sway control.
Today's trailers are to have a specific dryweight, often near the entrance door that shows the dry weight as shipped from the factory. Does not include batteries, etc and anything the dealer has added, such as special front hitches etc. One has to ask the dealer what has been added. Still, the posted weight is a good guide. I am also concern about quality and have tried to do much research.
I will look at forums from users of specific company campers. I am aware of being able to take to our local grain elevator to weigh.
I am convinced the new Ford F250 is designed as a power work horse and is capable of much. It is designed to get out and work and tow. The turbo will help much in the mountains and thin air as the turbo will help keep the horsepower available, but always at a mpg cost. The diesel also provides more power. Still, I am looking and asking about it's limitations.
My wife and I are considering a factory tour. We are 4 to 5 hours away and they usuallyare only certain days a week.
Jim
Jim,
Another advantage of the factory tour is so you can see as much as possible of the construction of a unit, thus an idea of its quality. I know of a number of folks that went on multiple tours with one brand in mind, only to find that another brand had better quality. A factory tour may also let one see the frames of the trailers before anything is put on them. Since the frame, suspension, wheels and tires all serve as the foundation of the trailer, it is a good thing to always consider that when buying, even if one isn't going full-time.
You may have to excuse me with regards to trucks, but I've also been in the agriculture/agribusiness field as well as being a commercial truck driver with both bobtails and 18-wheelers. Because of that, I personally like to have overkill with my trucks. I know of a number of folks with trailers as heavy as ours that are towing with F350's or GM or Dodge 3500 series trucks. However, for my peace of mind, I'd want nothing less than an F450 for ours.
Off topic from your needs and desires, I may get to test out our F450 and our 18,500 lb trailer on a couple of mountain passes in a few months. We hope to tow up to the Colorado Springs area for a two-week vacation. While I've heard numerous folks say that the F450's do fine, I always tend to be a bit leery with those things. Which is all good because the worst thing to do is become overconfident and put oneself into a dangerous circumstance.
Terry
That is our plan, Jack.
However, I've yet to contact them about a reservation, so I probably ought to do that this weekend. Our plans are to arrive the end of September and stay for two weeks. I'm not set in stone yet on arrival and departure dates, but we will likely start up on the 27th of September and start back around October 11. Will you still be up there then? It would be great if we could meet up.
One of Jo's sisters already lives in Colorado and her other sister is moving up to Colorado Springs next month. While we will have to spend some time with the relatives, I'm really hoping to be free to travel around and get some pictures of the fall colors.
Terry
Farm Pair, Glad you are thinking about safety. In the last two years that we've been weighing RVs, I can tell you that most of the single rear wheel pick-ups towing large fifth wheels that we've weighed have been overloaded on the truck's rear axle. They may be within their towing capacity, but they are quite often over the GAWR on the rear axle.
Today's pick-up engines are better and they tow beautifully. However, the concern is always braking and stability. Putting too much weight behind a SRW can compromise both of those.
Now, with that said, my personal opinion (and that's all it is) is I would like to keep the fifth wheel weight for that truck down to about 13,000 lbs or less. Keep in mind that the maximum loaded trailer weight in the towing charts is based on the truck alone with only the driver and full fuel, oil, and necessary fluids. The towing capacity has to be reduced by the weight of other passengers and cargo in the truck (such as toolboxes, auxiliary fuel tanks, generators, camping stuff, etc.).
Based on your posts so far, I'm betting you'll get something that's both safe and comfortable. I won't be scared riding on the same road with you.
Howard, I certainly appreciate your input. Let me throw you some quick figures. I give two approaches. First, some facts about the truck. The GCVWR is 23,500 The GVW is 10,000. That leaves 13,500. I used an arbitary figure for reserve capacity of 80% and came up with 10,800 for towing. I subtracted another 1000 lbs for added weight to the trailer, which leaves me near 10,000 lbs the trailer could weigh and I still have the excess below the trucks GVW.
In checking directly with the Ford dealer the curb weight is a total of 7443. Front axle is 4515 and rear axle is 2928. I am expecting only myself, my wife, a sheltie, the 5th wheel hitch and a smaller cooler or two for some water bottles and quick snacks, and some other light supplies and applied another 550 lbs. for this. Some is on the front axle and some on the rear. It maybe fair to spilt this amount. 2928 plus 275 is essentially 3200 lbs. The trucks gross rear axle limit is 6100, with front axle at 5200 and the total limit for the truck at 10,000.
The heaviest King Pin weight of the larger trailers we have considered is about 2300. If we were to put 1000 to 1200 lbs inside the trailer I am not sure how much of that transfers to the King pin and rear axle. Storages tend to be under the front end of the trailer, but inside we distribute that weight, at least some front to rear. Meaning groceries, bedding, clothing, etc. 6100 lbs less the 3200 lbs leaves 2900 lbs of potential King Pin weight with a need for a safe margin. How much I do not know, but the 2300 is likely near a safer limit.
Ford says the maximum 5th wheel limit for this truck is 15,200. Subtracted from the 23,500 total GCVW that is 8300 lbs and add back in the 550 lbs and we have a total of over 8800 lbs., which seems to balance against the truck. We do not want to load the truck near the 10,000 lb limit, but 8000 to 8500 lbs maybe okay. We seem to be okay on rear axle even in the larger RV's.
From tables I have studied closely some of the larger 38 to 40 foot trailers we feel we could afford have a dry weight of 10,700 to 11,430, without any extra added we need to confirm. The trailer GVW is often is 4000 lbs plus, but I do not feel we even want to come close to this amount. One dealer said the average cargo load is around 1250 lbs for usual campers. I do not have any values to deny or confirm that amount, but seems reasonable. Full timers may have more. I question if we would have that much. We do not plan on a generator. I do take tools, but likely put them in the camper storage for security.
As I said earlier the 2012 F250 Super Duty Power Edge with the 6.7 diesel turbo charged is a power house. It has big 20 inch tires and was really built for the commercial contractor who needs to pull some heavy loads under some extreme conditions. It has a built in sway control and built in braking system. The truck has a Tow/Haul feature and built on the dash is an extra slide brake controller. The truck has a 6 speed automatic, plus a manual override with a first and second gear, with either automatic or manual high and low 4X4. It seems to be built for pulling up hill and designed to greatly assist going down hill. My wife and I in smaller towing RV's have taken on Monarch Pass of 11,300 feet going up and down and that was many years ago with a vehicle that was not equipped to work in such thin air. This truck with the turbo and a 400 horse power engine, plus almost 800 foot lbs of torgue should handle mountains with more ease that many of Fords earlier models of even larger size.
We have also have given serious consideration to some 33 to 35 foot RV's to cut down on over all weight. most come in near 10,000 lbs dryweight. We also then cut out some features that would be nice to have and I am sure in some respects also some quality. We do not feel we can justify the more premium RV's such as Jerry has as we may use it on weekends and maybe 3 or 4 trips of 3 or 4 weeks out at time.
Some of the larger rigs we have viewed are going to push the 12,000 lb level and we are not sure that is wise. I would love to have a King Size bed, but only a couple of models I have found fit in the smaller catagory, such as a Keystone Laredo and a Keystone Montana Mountaineer. A Heartland Big Country has a King at 12,000 lbs dry. We have to decide what is important. Some have built in vacums, ceiling fans, etc. They are loading features today to make people feel the comforts of home. There is the corner shower and the 3X5 shower.
I need to quit. If you or Jerry have any advice or something else we should be reviewing, please speak your mind. I through a lot of figures out and apologize if I did too much. I also am nut on getting the fuel mileage I can get and tend not to dry fast. We are going to try and visit a factory or two.
Jerry, I professionally managed Ag assets, essentially farms for 23 years and held a Brokers license for 25 years and still do. I specialize in farmland real estate and not in houses. I do not sell houses. Both my wife and I were raised on farms and we live on her family farms. Except for a stint in the Army and a year in Viet Nam we have lived in West Central Illinois all of our lives, but our children and grand kids live in Chicago Suburbs, Texas and California. Another reason to travel. We love to see this country and have seen much already.
Thank you both, again, for your comments.
Jim and Ellen
Farm Pair, it sounds like you will be quite pleased with whatever you end up with because you are doing your homework.
Fifty years ago I read and reread Wally Byam's book Trailer Travel Here and Abroad. One of the points that stuck with me all of these years is that the weight of the trailer should never exceed the weight of the tow vehicle. Granted, 50 years ago very few vehicles had disc brakes, and trailer brakes weren't anything to brag about, either. Today I suspect that most trailers exceed the weight of the vehicle that is towing them, sometimes by quite a bit.
By all means visit some factories. When we started our journey we were so convinced that we would end up with a Heartland Bighorn that we bought an mpg as our "learner" rig. Long story short, we ended up with a motor home because that fit our needs best. If you are serious about a 5'er, make sure you tour DRV, but be warned: very little else will measure up.
David,
Jim mentioned in his first post here that they would not be full-timing. While the DRV would be a good unit for anyone, even their 32-foot models would likely weigh too much for his truck.
Jim,
Not to be picky, but my name is Terry, not Jerry. But don't worry. I used to work in a place where we took reservations for cars over the phone. I've been called every "arry" name in the book.
Keep in mind that you also need to take into consideration what a full tank of diesel weighs as well when looking at the truck's weight.
Terry
Terry, I apologize for using the wrong name. Every one like to see their correct name.
The curb weight does include a full tank. I checked that out and is in the calculations. Thanks for bringing this up.
Jim
I'm sticking with my original suggestion - keep the total loaded trailer weight below 13,000 lbs. However, even if you can get a 38 - 40 foot trailer and stay within that trailer weight, I would still be hesitant to tow that length with a single rear wheel truck. It's simply not as stable in turns, high wind, and when you really need to stop something that long. Again, just my opinion.
You can expect 20 - 25% of the total loaded trailer weight to be pin weight. Using my maximum loader trailer weight of 13,000 lbs, that would give you a pin weight of 2,600 to 3,250. Using your figures of 3,200 lbs (unloaded rear axle weight plus cargo), you would be looking at a weight on your rear axle of 5,800 - 6,450 ... very close to or over your truck's rear axle weight rating of 6,100. Even at 12,000 lbs of fully loaded trailer weight, you could exceed your truck rear axle weight rating depending on where your pin weight comes in.
It looks to me like you need your trailer to have a dry weight of 10,000 to 11,000 pounds and you would be limited to 2,000 pounds of cargo (and add-ons) in the trailer. That would put you well under the truck's towing limit and very close to your truck's rear axle weight rating. With that said, I still wouldn't go to the 38 - 40 foot length. I would stick to the 35 foot and under range with the SRW F250. One more time, just my opinion.
Jack,
Things have changed a bit. After our incident with the tree, Jo is insistent that our insurance be full replacement, so we are looking to change insurance providers. With that going on, it looks like we will NOT be towing our fifth wheel to Colorado Springs because of the need for extra cash for the insurance.
However, we will still be going up, but will stay with Jo's sister that is moving up to Peyton, CO next month. Our plans for the dates are the same, so as time gets closer, I'll get back in touch with you so we can see if we can arrange a meet with the two of you.
I'd really like to get to meet you two face to face.
Terry
This looked like the place to toss this WOW moment in.
Guy pulled into the site we vacated.....had a HUGE 5-er. Looked huge. He walks down last night to introduce himself, he is a contractor and going to be here till next spring. Nice guy.
I asked about that fifth wheel, its a big'un! He said yeah, its a 40'er. (He pulled it in with a Chevy 3/4 ton). I asked how much it weighs. 17000 lbs with all of his tools in there.....*gulp*
Holy cow...............not sure how that 3/4 ton got that thing UP the mountain, but when he leaves, I am going to make sure Im at the top of the hill.....
wow.........
-- Edited by scrappy on Tuesday 9th of July 2013 12:47:48 PM
Yea, that is a Wow. As you may know, the Allison transmission and engine in 2500 diesel Chevy’s is the same as the 1- ton 3500 for each model year. It’s an Ox. But it isn’t pulling the trailer up the hill. That’s not the problem for the 2500 Chevy (or Fords, etc.) It’s what happens when he blows a tire on the rear and tries to control that trailer at speed without dual rear wheels on the truck among other things. That’s the problem with overloaded trucks. It’s not the “going up,” it’s the “coming down” and controlling the trailer that scares me – especially if you blow a tire. I’ve had a tire cut on a rock at a rest area, not a blowout, and ended up on 3 wheels in the back with the rig attached coming down the mountain Interstate out of Flagstaff, AZ. No problem whatsoever. But it would have been had I had single rear tires.
Terry and to all who have offered suggestions and comments.
I spent over a well over a hundred hours doing research on brands, models, etc. It is hard to decipher some differences.
I listened to your advice and we stayed away from a big rig. We wanted quality that would fit our needs, but knew we could not go to the rigs some you obviously live in.
We looked at a lot of different 5th wheels and dealers, plus researched on line the same and also looked pricing and what was being offered all around the country.
I learned Monday that one of the dealers had just brought in a new 2014 Montana High Country 318RE. We were seriously looking at another camper on their lot. Yesterday, we looked at the Montana and my wife said she like all of it. That's a good sign. Yes, it is a lighter version of the Montana, but has lots of good features and the quality appears to be above many others we viewed. It is 34 feet 6 inches in length.
The door sticker says 9240 lbs scaled weighed dry weight and the tongue weight dry is 1930, with two people considered in the total. I weighed what we carried on our previous 5th wheel and came in with less that 800 lbs. That was distributed over the front, middle and rear. The kitchen is over the axles, which is a lot of the weight. I weighed what goes in the pickup, including our hitch and it looks like we are less than 5100 lbs, plus anything we add to the king pin from our supplies in the trailer. The 5100 is towards the total 6100 rear wheel limit and leaves us 16.5% unloaded margin. By balancing the load on the 5th wheel I can minimize added king pin weight.
With 9240 (dry weight), plus say 1,000 added pounds I show that we have a gross weight margin of 32.6% against the towing capacity. I trust the two combinations will give us good safety pulling and braking down hill and provide and enjoyable ride.
Thanks for you input it was greatly appreciated and hopefully you will feel we listen.
An added note, the dealer had brought a close out 2013 from the factory and paid the 2013 price, but Montana shipped a 2014 instead. We were able to buy at the discounted 2013 price and get a new 2014, just delivered from the factory. We were the first to walk in the camper, except maybe an inspector from the local dealer at delivery.
Jim and Ellen