Isn't it funny how things can turn around for the better just when you least expect it? It happens that way sometimes...... read on.

Upon realizing the cost to upgrade to a more adequate truck to tow the heavy toy hauler we wanted, and the subsequent poor fuel economy we could expect, I hit rock bottom. Really. Suddenly, our dream of soon becoming RV owners just fell off the edge somewhere in the distance. But I kept thinking to myself that there just had to be a solution to this...a way we could keep our current truck or trade for a bigger one with little more money invested.

In another thread I had posted about needing help understanding our F-350 PSD's capacity, and Terri suggested looking at superlight RVs. It went over my head initially, because I had this notion that our tow capacity should be well above that, superlights are crappy, cheap units, and I wouldn't be able to get one of those with good insulation. I did base that information partially on the travel trailer we almost, scarily, bought well over a year ago that was a superlight. Anyhow, what I was thinking may be true of the superlights, but it's not necessarily true of the light weight luxury fifth wheels that are available, like the Keystone Montana High Country offering all its floor plans coming in at under 10,000 lbs. and insulated to R-38 in the roof and R-21 in the floor, as an example, and the Gulf Stream Sedona and Canyon Trail, and a number of the CrossRoads Elevation toy haulers and Cruiser Patriots coming in at around 10,000 lbs. and just under R-30 insulation, as more examples. There are actually a number of quality, fairly well insulated units out there, to my utter surprise and sheer delight.

So, as it turns out, we did get the right truck after all. We don't need a heavier duty, more expensive and fuel-loving tow vehicle - we need a lighter RV. And that's what we're going to get. I share this story in the hopes that it may help someone else in the same dilemma, or someone seeking alternatives to heavy luxury fivers. I'm certain we're not the only ones. And going this route is going to save us money - no expensive truck to buy, and a lot less fuel usage over the long run!

Plus, my fiance has been redeemed, albeit inadvertently. We're both very relieved, of course.

Actually, my fiance is. I'll blame it on him, because it was his job to pick the TV and mine to pick out the fifth wheel. We bought the TV first so as to not have two big monthly payments on top of the mortgage and my student loans. We would have been OK, except now I've changed my mind about the RV I want and I've got the whole family on board with me. We've gone in a different, and heavier, direction for the RV than what we were thinking originally, unfortunately.

Point blank - We've shot ourselves in the foot. Admittedly, there is no way I wanted to buy both the RV and TV at about the same time, so we went with the truck first. Now we're screwed. The RV we now want is a large toy hauler (about 13,500-14,000 lbs. dry). With our current truck, only the smallest of our preferred toy hauler floor plans -and we have a whole two to choose from - will keep us within our F-350's specs, and that's barely. It's going to be awful tight with five of us.

It's a beautiful 2003 truck with a bulletproofed and chipped 6.0 PSD, but it's nearly useless to us now. However, had it not been for me perusing this website, we would never have realized how grossly overweight we would have been, and just how unsafe! Thank you to everyone who has brought this up! We feel like total idiots now. 

Ok, I'm done bawling over it for the moment. Now we're aware that we need a MDT. We've jumped into researching a truck that will give us 18,000 lbs. fifth wheel tow capacity. I would think 18,000 lbs. tow capacity will be enough. We're not going full timing. I know we still have to look at the weight of the truck and the GCVW, but a truck with the aforementioned capacity should put us in the ball park. Maybe. What do you folks think? Or am I still under?

On to the next part....OK, I feel like we're looking for a needle in a haystack. I am poring over tow guides from year to year trying to find a few older models that would work for us. I'd like to spend no more than $25,000. I know a lot of people use the F-450. We really don't want an F-450 that came with the 6.0 unless we know it has been bulletproofed and ready to pull. The short of it is it's taking me forever to weed through all these tow guides by year, make and model to find what will work for us, so if I may, does anyone already know what would work for us? Or does anyone know where one might find a list by towing capacity? I realize I'm asking a loaded question because there are other factors, such as gear ratio. I'm seriously not trying to be lazy about my research - believe me, I've been researching our RV choice for over two years - but I just feel like I am making little progress with the known issues of certain years of certain makes and models. We're overwhelmed. Can anyone help with some advice, please?

-- Edited by Bobbi on Monday 10th of June 2013 01:11:17 PM

Bobbi wrote:

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 Can anyone help with some advice, please?

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 “I know we still have to look at the weight of the truck and the GCVW, but a truck with the aforementioned capacity should put us in the ball park. Maybe. What do you folks think? Or am I still under?”

Bobbi, FWIW and IMO, this is the problem.  “ . . .should put us in the ball park.” is how you can have trouble – again.

First to quote you"  “The RV we now want is a large toy hauler (about 13,500-14,000 lbs. dry),” in my view is a not a useful statement.  A big toy hauler can weigh upwards of 22,000+ when loaded.  Loaded is the only number that really matters.

There are people here who can help, but first we need specific information.  Ballpark, IMO, isn’t good enough. So go find the trailer and get the specific numbers.  And, if you’re going into a big toy hauler, loaded for full timing, your maybe a lot better off, cost wise, with an HDT.  But until you have good numbers it is hard to make guesses and be right no matter if you have an F-450, etc. or whatever.

It depends and I’m just being honest.

Bobbi,

For an 18,000 lb trailer, an F350 dually that is equipped right should work, as well as many of the GM/Dodge 3500 series trucks.  Jo and I have a Mobile Suites trailer, and those trailers are heavy.  While an F450 would be better for your weight, I know of a number of folks that are pulling Mobile Suites with the one ton trucks.  While I know you don't want to go over $25,000 for your truck, to get what you want, you may have to.  As an example of what is available, at least near me here in Oklahoma, here is a link to a Ford dealer's used F450 in El Reno, Oklahoma.

Diffee Ford Used F450

Terry

Terry and Joe - Thank you for your reply. Unfortunately, our truck is a SRW.

I checked out your truck link. We were also looking last evening and found a few F-450s near or at $25,000. They're not plentiful in that price range, but they do appear to be out there. We're not finding anything local to us, however.

We have some concerns about the 6.4L engines, also. We are wondering if sticking with the 6.0L PSD would be the best option since it seems to be the least problematic of the Ford engines within our price range. We're aware that that engine must be bulletproofed before it could be used for towing.

We're looking at the GM and Dodge trucks as well, but I'm wondering how new we need to go to get the upper end of towing capacity. Back to poring through towing guides.....

Take the CCC weight of the trailer (maximum cargo capacity) on the coaches info plate...add the truck weight...add the truck added cargo weight plus passengers (this includes a full tank of fuel) and there is your answer.

you dont even have to get on a scale to figure that much out.......start there

Thank you, Lucky Mike! That's a big help. :>) Now we're getting somewhere. That is much more doable. Thank you, thank you!

Thanks for explaining that, Bill. I do see your points.

Here are the trailers we are interested in. Sorry we don't have it nailed down to one, but they are very similar except for the last one. Those weights are only indicating the "bare bones" floor plan, though, aren't' they? We would be getting options like the generator and upgraded insulation package. With the XLR Thunderbolt, for example, the All Weather Package includes dual-pane windows. That's going substantial weight added, or at least I would think so. I've been getting more accurate weights by finding ones for sale with the options we would choose, so the following weights would be the minimum. I'd say the average weight with the options we want would be 14,700 lbs. I've linked to the manufacturer's site in case you need more info.

Obviously, we would still get the RV loaded and to the scale to ensure we aren't overloaded once we get the RV.

Heartland Cylcone

XLR Thunderbolt, 380 AMP

Bill and Linda - Thank you for your reply. I agree that's how we can get into trouble again. That's why I asked for input on that.

We won't be full-timing.

Your points are well taken. My only problem with all of that is how do we buy the rig, bring it home and load it and the truck for camping, then take it to the scales if we don't even have the TV to bring it home?

Hi Lucky Mike. We agree. That's why we're wondering about other trucks -and their known mechanical issues - that have higher towing capacities.

I don't see how we can know what our loaded trailer and truck weight would be without bringing it home, loading it and taking it to the scales. What is your advice there? We do understand that  we have to look at the fifth wheel tow capacity for the truck, but still stay under the truck's GCVW rating.

Bobbi wrote:

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Bill and Linda - Thank you for your reply. I agree that's how we can get into trouble again. That's why I asked for input on that.

We won't be full-timing.

Your points are well taken. My only problem with all of that is how do we buy the rig, bring it home and load it and the truck for camping, then take it to the scales if we don't even have the TV to bring it home?

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Bobbi:

A common question actually.  When you purchase the rig and are ready to sign, make it a part of the deal that the dealer will deliver it to your location.  Be prepared to pay for the fuel (round trip) for this service, but no more.  That’s done all the time and there are outside delivery services that can do this for you if it’s the dealer is a long way off.  Better to spend the money on delivery than to have the same problem with the TV twice, IMO.

What I am suggesting is a way to take all the rush and much of the stress out of this.  What Mike has said is how we determined our last rig’s needs.  It’s a good way. However, if you use the maximum weight the trailer is rated for, and don’t intend to over load it, then you don’t have to go to the scale to determine the TV ratings required. Use 20%-22% of the max trailer weight and that will be very close to the pin weight assuming you don’t overload the trailer.  But the rule of thumb is always; get the trailer, then the truck.

Another suggestion to reduce the stress:  If you have time, go pick out a trailer.  Post that specific trailer, with specs on this forum.  There are several people who can then advise you on what you need.  You’ll see many will agree on the need as to the TV specifications.  Not necessarily the brand for various reasons, some quite valid depending on the year of the TV. Year of TV manufacture is a big deal. But most will agree on the specific truck specs.

Just a thought to put you at more ease

Hope this helps a bit

Bill

Bobbi,

I am not sure where you are located at but when I saw your post I though I would pass this on. We were visiting family and friends in Indiana last month and a friend was looking for a different truck to tow with. I stopped at an Indianapolis RV dealer for a sewer hose connection and they had an MDT they had taken in on trade. It was an older, 1994, GMC Kodiak, had a Cat diesel (same size as in many motorhomes) The truck had a custom made bed and an air 5th wheel hitch. The truck had, if I remember correctly, 435,000 miles but these trucks are made for higher mileage so that would not make me run away from it. The truck was a manual 6 speed and had a custom sleeper with leather jack knife sofa/sleeper.

I checked the truck for my buddy who decided he didn't want something that big for a daily driver. The truck would need tires (6) and, if it were me, I would have an independent mechanic go over everything before buying. The salesman said they had a "buy/bid" of $10,500 on the truck and it was priced at $12,500. I have no idea what a buy/bid is but said they would be willing to at least take that number.

I have no idea if the truck is still available, or if you would even consider it but this would not be a bad entry vehicle into the MDT market as long as it checks out OK with the mechanic.

It is located at http://www.mountcomfortrv.com/ I  have absolutely no affiliation with this dealer and no recommendation of them one way or the other. I just saw the truck on their lot while driving by and checked it out. I couldn't find the truck listed on their website so you will need to call to see if it's available or not.

Phil

Thank you for passing that along, Phil. This would be a daily driver for us also, so we'd be in the same boat as your friend, unfortunately.

Workinrvers wrote:

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Bobbi,

I am not sure where you are located at but when I saw your post I though I would pass this on. We were visiting family and friends in Indiana last month and a friend was looking for a different truck to tow with. I stopped at an Indianapolis RV dealer for a sewer hose connection and they had an MDT they had taken in on trade. It was an older, 1994, GMC Kodiak, had a Cat diesel (same size as in many motorhomes) The truck had a custom made bed and an air 5th wheel hitch. The truck had, if I remember correctly, 435,000 miles but these trucks are made for higher mileage so that would not make me run away from it. The truck was a manual 6 speed and had a custom sleeper with leather jack knife sofa/sleeper.

I checked the truck for my buddy who decided he didn't want something that big for a daily driver. The truck would need tires (6) and, if it were me, I would have an independent mechanic go over everything before buying. The salesman said they had a "buy/bid" of $10,500 on the truck and it was priced at $12,500. I have no idea what a buy/bid is but said they would be willing to at least take that number.

I have no idea if the truck is still available, or if you would even consider it but this would not be a bad entry vehicle into the MDT market as long as it checks out OK with the mechanic.

It is located at http://www.mountcomfortrv.com/ I  have absolutely no affiliation with this dealer and no recommendation of them one way or the other. I just saw the truck on their lot while driving by and checked it out. I couldn't find the truck listed on their website so you will need to call to see if it's available or not.

 

Phil

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Bobbi:

First, I like Phil’s idea as to a truck a lot.  But you indicated you didn’t want anything that big for a daily driver.  But that is a great combination for a lot of reasons for the trailer you like.

OK, let’s discuss the trailer a bit if you don’t mind for a bit of perspective none of which is negative – just information:

First, the Cargo capacity is listed at 4,525lbs.  But that is probably NOT after you option the trailer out.  That is, the 13,475lbs is probably / possibly without air conditioners, a generator (don’t know if you want one) empty water tanks, and no personal gear, food, etc. – I notice this trailer has a 162 gallon fresh water capacity – which equals 1,357lbs if full.  IF you travel with water that subtracts from the 4,525 of cargo capacity as do any options you add as well as waste or black water.  So just keep that in mind.  Full timers or not, it is very easy to add 2,000lbs+ of your stuff, not including vehicles that may be in the garage.

So, just make sure that the cargo capacity of the trailer, once you option it out, will be enough for your stuff; especially if your stuff includes any motorized “toys” or fuel to be put in the back.

So with all that said, assuming you stay at or below the 18,000lb trailer, 2011 and newer diesel Chevy 3500HD / and Ford F-350 trucks – dual rear wheel - should be rated to carry this trailer.  In the case of Dodge you need to check the specific truck as you should in any case.  However, model years 2010 and older many of these same “3500/F-350 trucks, especially Ford, vary considerable in capacities as well as in the total combined vehicle weight ratings.  That is the combined fully loaded weight of the trailer plus the fully loaded weight of the truck. (Called CGVW) That is where it will get you – the combined weight ratings as well as axle weights, not just trailer weights. So you have to check those capacities for a specific truck you are buying and those numbers should be on the door post as well as in the manual.

Keep in mind that you have to include the weight of “stuff” you will be putting in the truck such as tools and perhaps an aux fuel tank.  That all adds up to combined weight and axle numbers

I won’t start the Ford / Chevy / Dodge argument as to which it better because it is a useless discussion.  It depends on the year, especially as you commented in your original post. Very true point you made.  Some years some are much better, that is they have a better track record, than others. In some years it is simply personal preference.  It depends.

As you said, you probably need an MDT of some kind unless you can swing a 2011 or newer Chevy 3500HD or Ford F-350.  Beginning in 2011 both these diesel trucks with dual rear wheels properly equipped, and some Dodge’s later, have significantly increased capacities beyond the same trucks with the same name (3500 / F-350) from previous years 2010 and before.

All for your perspective and hope this helps.

Bill

Bobbi,

With regards to your updated information in your original post in this thread, keep the sidewall insulation factors in mind as well.  While it may not apply to you, you might find yourself in an area where the winters also provide winds blowing against your trailer.  At least, that's the way it is here in Oklahoma.

Terry

You are right about that Terry, and it's something I'm keeping an eye on. If you're not looking at something like a DRV or Lifestyle, it's definitely a week spot in RV insulation. Another weak spot is insulation in the slide outs.

Typical wall insulation is R-9 to R-11, even in the high-end toy haulers we were considering. While it's obviously better than a piece of cardboard, it's not great. The CrossRoads brand I mentioned offers their Polar Tec insulation package, which provides R-15 in the walls. So, I've been trying to find a way to compare the R-factors since one offers good insulation in the roof while another offers better insulation in the floor. The best way I know how is to add all the numbers together.

To top it off, some insulation information isn't even provided by the manufacturer. I have a question about insulation in to the folks at Evergreen RV Inc. about their Bay Hill fiver. They mention an extreme weather package, but no explanation as to what it is. We're going to the Hershey, PA RV show in September (we can't wait!!), and I'll be asking questions, hoping directly to factory reps, with a pen and pad in hand.

Bobbi:

No one will argue that insulation is important and the roof is the most important area. But, IMO, the most important thing you can have to improve comfort is dual pane windows. Those you can order with any quality rig and it doesn’t have to be a super high cost rig to get them.  Dual pane windows will add cost and weight.  But they will do more to eliminate sweating on the windows as well as heat lost or transfer – in or out – than you may realize.  The value-add beyond comfort is noise blocking. They really make a big difference in keeping noise from the outside – out.  Depending on the area you will be living most of the time, slide toppers, awnings over the slides, are also an important factor in the summer.

Another point that is significant is a second air-conditioner for the living space.  Most larger RV’s simply cannot be cooled with one AC unit in hot areas; at least not cooled to our standards.  This is especially true if you park later in the afternoon in a hot area and the single AC unit has to bring the inside down from very high temps – like 90’s+, with the sun beating down on it.  One 15,000 BTU unit just can’t do in most cases regardless of R values or dual pane windows.

The above opinion is based on a lot of years RVing in a lot of places from Arizona to above the Arctic Circle with the rig in our sig.  It’s very comfortable.  That’s why we still have it.

Food for thought . . .

Bill

Bobbi,

Since you mentioned DRV, beginning in 2009, they upped their insulation package to R25 in the roof, R29 in the floor, and R16 in the side walls.  Those are standard with both the Elite Suites and the Mobile Suites models.  Not sure what the Tradition's R-ratings are.

Our Mobile Suites is a 2010, so it has that standard of insulation.  We have been comfortable in temps ranging from a low of 14 degrees up to around 115 degrees.  The only thing I've noticed during cold is that when it gets really cold, I have to put on my slipper if I'm going to be sitting in the living room slide area.  Now, in Oklahoma's summers, we run two oscillating fans (one in bedroom; other in living room) to help keep us as cool as possible.

I'm giving you this information so you will have a little bit of an idea of the conditions when one is in those temperature extremes with those R-ratings.

Terry

Hi Bill. You know, I have read many arguments for and against dual pane windows. They say that, yes, they do help a lot with condensation and noise reduction, but they really only have an R-value of 1. An RV factory rep actually told me not to waste my money on them. He said that due to all the movement, they tend to develop leaks, and subsequently fog up and need replaced.

I don't know where I stand on it, really. I guess my position is that dual pane windows wouldn't be a deal breaker for me, and if we can afford to order a new camper, I may or may not get them. Either way, I'm very handy with a sewing machine, and my little brain has been working away devising insulating window coverings. If my idea works, I believe we may actually get a higher R-value, plus all the benefits of dual pane windows. Not really sure which way I am going to go on this issue, but it certainly is food for thought. Thanks for bringing that up, Bill. :>)

Bill and Linda wrote:

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Bobbi:

No one will argue that insulation is important and the roof is the most important area. But, IMO, the most important thing you can have to improve comfort is dual pane windows. Those you can order with any quality rig and it doesn’t have to be a super high cost rig to get them.  Dual pane windows will add cost and weight.  But they will do more to eliminate sweating on the windows as well as heat lost or transfer – in or out – than you may realize.  The value-add beyond comfort is noise blocking. They really make a big difference in keeping noise from the outside – out.  Depending on the area you will be living most of the time, slide toppers, awnings over the slides, are also an important factor in the summer.

Another point that is significant is a second air-conditioner for the living space.  Most larger RV’s simply cannot be cooled with one AC unit in hot areas; at least not cooled to our standards.  This is especially true if you park later in the afternoon in a hot area and the single AC unit has to bring the inside down from very high temps – like 90’s+, with the sun beating down on it.  One 15,000 BTU unit just can’t do in most cases regardless of R values or dual pane windows.

The above opinion is based on a lot of years RVing in a lot of places from Arizona to above the Arctic Circle with the rig in our sig.  It’s very comfortable.  That’s why we still have it.

Food for thought . . .

Bill

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Hi Terry. That is actually very helpful to know, indeed! Thanks so much for letting me know. :>)

My perfect floor plan would offer R-40 all the way around, but now I know that if we have to go down to +/- R-30 for the perfect floor plan, we would still be OK in extreme temps.

I plan on hiding in the shady, cooler mountains when it gets hot, and perching the camper in an open, south-facing position when it gets cooler out to help temper those extreme temps a bit more.

Terry and Jo wrote:

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Bobbi,

Since you mentioned DRV, beginning in 2009, they upped their insulation package to R25 in the roof, R29 in the floor, and R16 in the side walls.  Those are standard with both the Elite Suites and the Mobile Suites models.  Not sure what the Tradition's R-ratings are.

Our Mobile Suites is a 2010, so it has that standard of insulation.  We have been comfortable in temps ranging from a low of 14 degrees up to around 115 degrees.  The only thing I've noticed during cold is that when it gets really cold, I have to put on my slipper if I'm going to be sitting in the living room slide area.  Now, in Oklahoma's summers, we run two oscillating fans (one in bedroom; other in living room) to help keep us as cool as possible.

I'm giving you this information so you will have a little bit of an idea of the conditions when one is in those temperature extremes with those R-ratings.

Terry

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Bobbi,

I hate to mention this, but a "perfect" RV with respect to R-40 all the way around will likely be impossible.  Unless you go with a specially ordered, custom RV, that is not likely to happen.  I don't even think the New Horizons models would be that high with respect to R-values.

As for dual pane windows, I'm certainly glad we have them in our coach.  Ours is 3 years old with us living in it full time for 2 of those years and I've never seen clouding on any of them.  Never rely on the word of one person, even if they are a factory rep.  On the other hand, I've heard lots of experienced RV'ers say that they wouldn't be without them.

Terry

Terry - Yes, it would be impossible to get R-40 all the way around. I was kidding. I guess I should have said something else to clarify that I was just kidding around. I'm always so serious! :>)

I don't know how long it could take for a dual pane window to develop a leak, but I can totally see how it could be possible with the movement of an RV, especially with how rough some of our roads are here in PA. I had read elsewhere that those windows had developed leaks, so it was feedback from more than one place. Still, they are something I am considering.

On a different, but related, note, my dual pane house windows just turned 12 this year. Two of them that face south have developed leaks and are clouding up. I'm so not looking forward to replacing them! :>(

Terry and Jo wrote:

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Bobbi,

I hate to mention this, but a "perfect" RV with respect to R-40 all the way around will likely be impossible.  Unless you go with a specially ordered, custom RV, that is not likely to happen.  I don't even think the New Horizons models would be that high with respect to R-values.

As for dual pane windows, I'm certainly glad we have them in our coach.  Ours is 3 years old with us living in it full time for 2 of those years and I've never seen clouding on any of them.  Never rely on the word of one person, even if they are a factory rep.  On the other hand, I've heard lots of experienced RV'ers say that they wouldn't be without them.

Terry

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I have yet to see an RV with a ventilated roof there is no reason, normally space between the interior & exterior is within inches......also putting vents in the roof would create a negative pressure on the structure during travel and allow the elements into the unit and create a hazard with the wiring in the ceiling areas

I agree, but it's a good thing to be aware of, and I want to ensure that we do have good insulation. Those are all excellent points. I am glad everyone is stepping up and mentioning these things. You all are making sure I'm on my toes! :>)

We are considering foam vs. fiberglass insulation. Most manufacturers seem to be using fiberglass, unfortunately. Do you feel that fiberglass is the worst thing you can use in an RV because it is ruined if it gets wet (besides more air infiltration)?

Jack Mayer wrote:

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R value is a deceiving statistic...as long as you have a reasonable amount of insulation.

Just as important is air infiltration. Air moving in the RV will make you feel colder, faster, than lower R value and a tighter coach. That is why good slide seals, the new frameless windows, and reasonable insulation values are so important.

I personally like a laminated foam structure. Because it is strong, does not use batt insulation - which IMO is the worse thing you can use in an RV - and tends to have less air infiltration.

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Thanks for the reply, Mike. Let's say that insulation gets wet in an RV roof, for example. Would the moisture be able to escape if the roof is ventilated?

Lucky Mike wrote:

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Fiberglass batting when it gets wet or traps moisture is a major breeding ground for black mold in an rv.....unfortunately a simple small leak not noticed for a while becomes a major health and structure problem.......

foam board insulation sheds water.....is tougher for rodents to penetrate, slows fire starting capabilities by not giving an air space for a simple short to get oxygen to burn, and is a structural support on its own

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Lucky Mike - I know of at least one company that does, and that's Forest River. Here is the wording direct from their web site from the list of features for their XLR toy hauler: "Attic Ventilation System." I"ve seen others as well, because it's something I'm concerned about.

On a different but related note, how would a foam insulated roof get rid of condensation, or would condensation not build up in a foam roof?

Thanks!

Lucky Mike wrote:

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I have yet to see an RV with a ventilated roof there is no reason, normally space between the interior & exterior is within inches......also putting vents in the roof would create a negative pressure on the structure during travel and allow the elements into the unit and create a hazard with the wiring in the ceiling areas

-- Edited by Lucky Mike on Thursday 13th of June 2013 07:47:20 PM

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All good points, Lucky Mike. Thanks for explaining about the foam insulation not needing ventilation. This brings something else to my mind regarding foam insulation.

I do know that NuWa used the blue Dow foam in their walls. Not sure about the rest of the unit. They still have their website up and have a few construction videos. In the one video, they mention that this blue Dow foam is superior to the white block foam most other manufacturers use. Then later in the video, it was stated that all foam will shrink in time, and Dow was guaranteed against shrinkage for 15 years. This indicates to me that there will eventually be an air space where foam is used.

I sure hope you are right. Right now, it seems like we will never find it. Anyhow, I do appreciate you taking the time to inform me and discuss this. I've inquired about the difference between foam vs. fiberglass before, and didn't get nearly as many answers as you have given me, plus no one made fun of me for asking about it, which happened in another forum. Thanks!

Lucky Mike wrote:

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You will find what your looking for......

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