Think this is a scam or is it normal? Welcome imput.
WestWardHo said
04:42 PM May 31, 2013
We traded out Big Country in for our new Trilogy. Had a smaller mortgage on prior rig. Date of contract and pick up was 4/2. Prior to purchase we had read online that dealer took months to pay off trades. We asked finance person about it and it was "news to her" and should NOT be an issue. (I know, i know! 😒
Dealer does 62 mil a year in loans at multiple locations.
We started calling last week because prior had not been paid off yet, first call wasn't returned. Called again, other finance person said he'd check and email results. Called again two days later band finance gal said our deal was locked in manager's office and she would email results when he came in. a called again and sheer turned call & said she had written email incorrectly and it bounced back, that the payment had been sent yesterday. That will be two full months before it clears. We had anticipated thaissue were prepared but think about it.....62 mil and playing with the float on some of that money can add up. Found nothing on quick search of AZ laws online that dealt with this subject.
Is this typical?
Sherry
Lucky Mike said
05:45 PM May 31, 2013
If it involves a salesman and a case of snake oil ..........yes its typical , stay on them and verify through the loan source that they have received payment or contract !!!
does'nt matter if they make thousands, millions or billions..........the more you make , the more debt you can carry , and we all know difficult times and over extending can cause problems
all those new units you saw on his lot are financed on floor plan agreements , and while they sit there he is paying interest plus on them!!!
Howard said
06:35 PM May 31, 2013
Let's put it this way. In closing lots and lots of real estate loans in our prior career, we paid extra to overnight mortgage payoffs to stop interest from accruing on the loans as soon as possible. Interest stopped accruing on the day the lender received the payoff and we made sure we had documentation of that date from the delivery service.
In every state I know, dealers are required by law to pay off prior trade-in loans within 30 days (often less). Financially strapped dealers often don't have the cash to pay off your loan until they sell your trade-in, so they will delay until the trade-in sells or they get some other cash infusion. They then end up paying more because more interest has accrued. However, if they never pay it off or pay short, you could be liable. The lender contracted with you for the loan and unless there is a transfer of liability clause in the loan document and the new RV purchase documents, you could be stuck.
If they told you they sent the check and it will take two months to clear, that is, in my opinion, a bald-faced lie.
It may be common practice and not necessarily a "scam". However, that common practice is probably illegal depending on the law of the state where the transaction took place and it may even be a felony.
If I were in your shoes, I would find out the law of the state and send a certified letter demanding compliance with the law including proof of payoff. And I would be prepared to retain an attorney. Also, I would be in immediate contact with the lender and explain the circumstances and determine 1) your potential liability, and 2) how long it takes for a payoff to be processed upon receipt of a dealer payment.
This is NOT something to be taken lightly.
WestWardHo said
09:29 PM May 31, 2013
Thanks for both of your replies. Howard, I couldn't find any reference to RV Dealers in Arizona state law. if H. is busy, I guess my question is are they regulated by the same laws as automotive dealers?
Again, thanks so much. Calling our Credit union who holds the first mortgage on Monday.
And more to follow.
Sherry
-- Edited by WestWardHo on Saturday 1st of June 2013 09:20:37 AM
WestWardHo said
03:13 PM Jun 21, 2013
An update on this issue. I called the state attorney general's office and was told I could file an online complaint form but they couldn't advise on legality of dealer's law/requirement. Completed form received automresponse but nothing more. Trade in loan was paid off two months and two days after purchase.
Also called manufacturer regarding tire upgrade exchange voiding warranty and of course that was not true.
Called our new mortgage company and they were totally uninterested in the fact that the trade in wasn't paid off even though it was part of their contract with us and the dealer.
Completed an online contact form to owner of the dealership franchise. Heard via email June 3nd from new general manager of the dealership from which we purchased saying he was new GM and this would not be swept under the rug, he would investigate. I followed up with a long email and didn't hear back. Sent another email a week later and received a reply that he had been out of the office and to please allow him time. Another week and I sent another email. (I can be pretty persistent 😛) Received a nice call from him yesterday saying he has been really busy and has been recruited for two years by owner of dealer franchise to help him turn around the company and he resisted until recently. Told him I/we wanted a full refund of the PDI we paid for, the consumer difference in the cost of Goodyear H Tires and the G tires, and one mortgage payment on our trade. He again asked for more time and sadly said we weren't the only people with issues that he was cleaning up.
Wouldn't that be nice? Be interesting to hear if there is any response from the state AG's office.
Sherry
Jack Mayer said
05:42 PM Jun 21, 2013
I'm a little confused about the things you are asking of the dealer.
On the tires: what has that got to do with the payoff date? You bought a coach with a certain set of tires on it...if they were not what you wanted on it you should have negotiated the change at the time - or am I missing something here....(which could be the case - I'm a little slow at times)
On the payment: why would they do that? Did you make additional payments on the old coach that you traded after the trade? If so, then why? And if you did then it should have been reflected in the paperwork on the trade. If it was ot then the original holder of the loan should refund it to you for an overpayment since the loan amount was paid by the dealer.
PDI: did you not agree to the PDI amount when you bought? Was the PDI unsatisfactory? Is that why you want a refund on the PDI?
I'd be unhappy with the 2 month payment delay, for sure....but the other things seem unrelated to that.... Maybe I'm missing something...
WestWardHo said
07:45 PM Jun 21, 2013
Jack,
Guess I'm posting different issues on different threads on this forum. It took the dealer over two months to pay off our trade in, we made two additional payments on our trade before they paid off loan. The loan amount difference credited to us by our original mortgage holder was from the date they received the payoff, not the date of our contract, I believe. But you made a good point which I need to check further.
Yes, we had negotiated the tire upgrade at our time of purchase but when we got there to pick it up the salesman said switching the tires would void our warranty and they couldn't give them to us.
Also when we arrived to pick up the rig, the carpet was soaking wet (they had it at a show with no carpet protection) so delayed our change over, plus the inspection hadn't been done, there was a clamp missing on plumbing for running fresh water thru to flush black tank (know I'm not describing this right but hope you know what I'm trying to say) so basement flooded. Welded bolt was missing from entry stairs, lighting over entertainment unit was cross wired, and other things that took Guaranty a full day and a half to do. No lock was provided for refrigerator/freezer door (modification done after refrigerator left Frigidare)which supposedly had been provided with the rig by Dynamax and Velcro on doors didn't hold so two spills and freezer door banged into island causing major dent. No instruction on PDI on how to turn valve underneath on primary propane tank and nothing in our manual so when auxillary tank ran out we had no gas. Had to call factory to learn that. Dealer didnt know unit so couldn't effectively do PDI. Common from what I've read on the trilogy forum.
In spite of all that, now that its all fixed as it should have been, we love our rig.
Sherry who is sorry for the confusion.
Jack Mayer said
03:01 PM Jun 22, 2013
Sherry, thanks for the explanation....I'd be on their butt too.....big time.
The tire thing is total nonsense. Don't take it from them ....stay on them
WestWardHo said
05:29 PM Jul 28, 2013
Finally, I have been badgering for 2 months the new GM at the dealership where we did this deal. Finally, after placating emails from him and I ran out of patience, I received this email in response to my P.O.'ed one sent Friday:
Sherry:
I am putting in your check request for your PDI refund and also the amount for the extra payment that you had made. In regards to the tires; do you want money for the cost of the tires or for us to change them here in December? Let me know and if you want money for the cost of the tires then I will add it to the check request.
-----
We'll see if the check comes but I told him we wanted the money for the tires too!
Looks like our persistence and badgering paid off. The AZ Attorney's office just sent a form reply citing budget cuts, etc. so he was useless.
Sherry
cherylbrv said
10:40 PM Jul 28, 2013
Sometimes I also find that having the Better Business Bureau involved also makes a difference, as they are fined if the issue isn't resolved. Also, if you subscribe to Trailer Life magazine, they have a column / service which helps consumers resolve issues with dealers and manufacturers. Good luck! I hope this all gets resolved soon!
Terry and Jo said
06:07 AM Jul 29, 2013
Cheryl,
BBB is effective only with those that choose to participate with the BBB. They have no authority to fine anyone other than their own members, and if they get heavy-handed with fines, members are likely to leave.
Terry
cherylbrv said
10:09 PM Jul 29, 2013
Terry and Jo wrote:
Cheryl,
BBB is effective only with those that choose to participate with the BBB. They have no authority to fine anyone other than their own members, and if they get heavy-handed with fines, members are likely to leave.
Terry
Thanks, Terry. I didn't know that. I've been fighting with Verizon for a few years now, and things finally got out of hand when I lost service (phone and internet) for 3 weeks. I only finally got connected to someone within the company (customer advocate dept) who was willing and able to help, after I filed a claim with the BBB.
WestWardHo said
02:44 AM Nov 27, 2013
Finally! We have been badgering the new GM at this dealership since last May and received a check today. I'd filed with the Arizona State Attorney General's Consumer protection office and received a generic reply. Replied back to the AG's office with a stronger letter plus keep the heat on with the Mesa dealer, weekly I was calling and emailing.
About two weeks ago we received a form letter from the AG's office that the matter had been resolved "according to the dealership who stated the check for the payoff was dated May 10th and implied the credit union had not cleared it until a month later and that a separate check for other issues had been sent to us. Wrong! I'd had many promises but the "check was always in the mail".
Another even stronger letter to the AG's office (with a copy to the dealership) with copies of emails with various promises included and pointing out the disparities.
Suddenly Jesse got a call from the dealership GM asking what address we'd like the check sent to and would we mind sending a letter to the AG once we received it. "Sure no problem." Unfortunately, or maybe fortunately, our mail forwarding service misdirected that week's mail forwarding so we just received the check today.
In the meantime I checked the BBB's site plus ripoff report and other sites with warnings about this dealer's ongoing practices. They do not have a good rep. Posting this to remind people to check the digital reviews thoroughly. Also to badger the bejesus out of those who have not treated you fairly, the old "squeaky wheel".
While we were in Mesa last week I gave serious thought to going into the dealership to introduce myself to the GM as his worst nightmare but decided that we had no check in our hands at that point so I passed.
When posting on the Internet one has to be very careful to post provable facts only as we've all heard of people getting sued.
We'll probably wait until after Thanksgiving to send that letter to the AG.
😄 Sherry
kb0zke said
04:02 PM Nov 27, 2013
Thanks for the update. Please keep us posted. While we can't do much to help you directly, we CAN take our business elsewhere when a business treats customers so poorly.
I had an experience with a car dealership earlier this summer that was less than pleasant. I found out that they were connected to a group of dealers in Springfield that I won't deal with, and, in fact, claim to the the country's largest network of dealers. I wrote to the parent company telling them that I have bookmarked their website (which lists all their dealers around the country) and further informing them that I will not buy from any dealership that is connected to them. The first question I ask a dealership is "Are you connected in any way to ___'s Auto Group?" If the answer is yes I thank them for their time and leave.
Dog Folks said
10:33 AM Nov 30, 2013
WestWardHo said:"We'll probably wait until after Thanksgiving to send that letter to the AG."
Consider waiting the same number of days that you waited for your check. If the dealer calls,"The letter is in the mail."
cherylbrv said
11:05 PM Nov 30, 2013
To Dog Folks -- too bad there's no 'like" button!!! Great answer!
We traded out Big Country in for our new Trilogy. Had a smaller mortgage on prior rig. Date of contract and pick up was 4/2. Prior to purchase we had read online that dealer took months to pay off trades. We asked finance person about it and it was "news to her" and should NOT be an issue. (I know, i know! 😒
Dealer does 62 mil a year in loans at multiple locations.
We started calling last week because prior had not been paid off yet, first call wasn't returned. Called again, other finance person said he'd check and email results. Called again two days later band finance gal said our deal was locked in manager's office and she would email results when he came in. a called again and sheer turned call & said she had written email incorrectly and it bounced back, that the payment had been sent yesterday. That will be two full months before it clears. We had anticipated thaissue were prepared but think about it.....62 mil and playing with the float on some of that money can add up. Found nothing on quick search of AZ laws online that dealt with this subject.
Is this typical?
Sherry
does'nt matter if they make thousands, millions or billions..........the more you make , the more debt you can carry , and we all know difficult times and over extending can cause problems
all those new units you saw on his lot are financed on floor plan agreements , and while they sit there he is paying interest plus on them!!!
Let's put it this way. In closing lots and lots of real estate loans in our prior career, we paid extra to overnight mortgage payoffs to stop interest from accruing on the loans as soon as possible. Interest stopped accruing on the day the lender received the payoff and we made sure we had documentation of that date from the delivery service.
In every state I know, dealers are required by law to pay off prior trade-in loans within 30 days (often less). Financially strapped dealers often don't have the cash to pay off your loan until they sell your trade-in, so they will delay until the trade-in sells or they get some other cash infusion. They then end up paying more because more interest has accrued. However, if they never pay it off or pay short, you could be liable. The lender contracted with you for the loan and unless there is a transfer of liability clause in the loan document and the new RV purchase documents, you could be stuck.
If they told you they sent the check and it will take two months to clear, that is, in my opinion, a bald-faced lie.
It may be common practice and not necessarily a "scam". However, that common practice is probably illegal depending on the law of the state where the transaction took place and it may even be a felony.
If I were in your shoes, I would find out the law of the state and send a certified letter demanding compliance with the law including proof of payoff. And I would be prepared to retain an attorney. Also, I would be in immediate contact with the lender and explain the circumstances and determine 1) your potential liability, and 2) how long it takes for a payoff to be processed upon receipt of a dealer payment.
This is NOT something to be taken lightly.
Thanks for both of your replies. Howard, I couldn't find any reference to RV Dealers in Arizona state law. if H. is busy, I guess my question is are they regulated by the same laws as automotive dealers?
Again, thanks so much. Calling our Credit union who holds the first mortgage on Monday.
And more to follow.
Sherry
-- Edited by WestWardHo on Saturday 1st of June 2013 09:20:37 AM
Also called manufacturer regarding tire upgrade exchange voiding warranty and of course that was not true.
Called our new mortgage company and they were totally uninterested in the fact that the trade in wasn't paid off even though it was part of their contract with us and the dealer.
Completed an online contact form to owner of the dealership franchise. Heard via email June 3nd from new general manager of the dealership from which we purchased saying he was new GM and this would not be swept under the rug, he would investigate. I followed up with a long email and didn't hear back. Sent another email a week later and received a reply that he had been out of the office and to please allow him time. Another week and I sent another email. (I can be pretty persistent 😛) Received a nice call from him yesterday saying he has been really busy and has been recruited for two years by owner of dealer franchise to help him turn around the company and he resisted until recently. Told him I/we wanted a full refund of the PDI we paid for, the consumer difference in the cost of Goodyear H Tires and the G tires, and one mortgage payment on our trade. He again asked for more time and sadly said we weren't the only people with issues that he was cleaning up.
Wouldn't that be nice? Be interesting to hear if there is any response from the state AG's office.
Sherry
On the tires: what has that got to do with the payoff date? You bought a coach with a certain set of tires on it...if they were not what you wanted on it you should have negotiated the change at the time - or am I missing something here....(which could be the case - I'm a little slow at times)
On the payment: why would they do that? Did you make additional payments on the old coach that you traded after the trade? If so, then why? And if you did then it should have been reflected in the paperwork on the trade. If it was ot then the original holder of the loan should refund it to you for an overpayment since the loan amount was paid by the dealer.
PDI: did you not agree to the PDI amount when you bought? Was the PDI unsatisfactory? Is that why you want a refund on the PDI?
I'd be unhappy with the 2 month payment delay, for sure....but the other things seem unrelated to that.... Maybe I'm missing something...
Guess I'm posting different issues on different threads on this forum. It took the dealer over two months to pay off our trade in, we made two additional payments on our trade before they paid off loan. The loan amount difference credited to us by our original mortgage holder was from the date they received the payoff, not the date of our contract, I believe. But you made a good point which I need to check further.
Yes, we had negotiated the tire upgrade at our time of purchase but when we got there to pick it up the salesman said switching the tires would void our warranty and they couldn't give them to us.
Also when we arrived to pick up the rig, the carpet was soaking wet (they had it at a show with no carpet protection) so delayed our change over, plus the inspection hadn't been done, there was a clamp missing on plumbing for running fresh water thru to flush black tank (know I'm not describing this right but hope you know what I'm trying to say) so basement flooded. Welded bolt was missing from entry stairs, lighting over entertainment unit was cross wired, and other things that took Guaranty a full day and a half to do. No lock was provided for refrigerator/freezer door (modification done after refrigerator left Frigidare)which supposedly had been provided with the rig by Dynamax and Velcro on doors didn't hold so two spills and freezer door banged into island causing major dent.
No instruction on PDI on how to turn valve underneath on primary propane tank and nothing in our manual so when auxillary tank ran out we had no gas. Had to call factory to learn that. Dealer didnt know unit so couldn't effectively do PDI. Common from what I've read on the trilogy forum.
In spite of all that, now that its all fixed as it should have been, we love our rig.
Sherry who is sorry for the confusion.
The tire thing is total nonsense. Don't take it from them ....stay on them
Sherry:
I am putting in your check request for your PDI refund and also the amount for the extra payment that you had made. In regards to the tires; do you want money for the cost of the tires or for us to change them here in December? Let me know and if you want money for the cost of the tires then I will add it to the check request.
-----
We'll see if the check comes but I told him we wanted the money for the tires too!
Looks like our persistence and badgering paid off. The AZ Attorney's office just sent a form reply citing budget cuts, etc. so he was useless.
Sherry
Cheryl,
BBB is effective only with those that choose to participate with the BBB. They have no authority to fine anyone other than their own members, and if they get heavy-handed with fines, members are likely to leave.
Terry
Thanks, Terry. I didn't know that. I've been fighting with Verizon for a few years now, and things finally got out of hand when I lost service (phone and internet) for 3 weeks. I only finally got connected to someone within the company (customer advocate dept) who was willing and able to help, after I filed a claim with the BBB.
About two weeks ago we received a form letter from the AG's office that the matter had been resolved "according to the dealership who stated the check for the payoff was dated May 10th and implied the credit union had not cleared it until a month later and that a separate check for other issues had been sent to us. Wrong! I'd had many promises but the "check was always in the mail".
Another even stronger letter to the AG's office (with a copy to the dealership) with copies of emails with various promises included and pointing out the disparities.
Suddenly Jesse got a call from the dealership GM asking what address we'd like the check sent to and would we mind sending a letter to the AG once we received it. "Sure no problem." Unfortunately, or maybe fortunately, our mail forwarding service misdirected that week's mail forwarding so we just received the check today.
In the meantime I checked the BBB's site plus ripoff report and other sites with warnings about this dealer's ongoing practices. They do not have a good rep. Posting this to remind people to check the digital reviews thoroughly. Also to badger the bejesus out of those who have not treated you fairly, the old "squeaky wheel".
While we were in Mesa last week I gave serious thought to going into the dealership to introduce myself to the GM as his worst nightmare but decided that we had no check in our hands at that point so I passed.
When posting on the Internet one has to be very careful to post provable facts only as we've all heard of people getting sued.
We'll probably wait until after Thanksgiving to send that letter to the AG.
😄 Sherry
I had an experience with a car dealership earlier this summer that was less than pleasant. I found out that they were connected to a group of dealers in Springfield that I won't deal with, and, in fact, claim to the the country's largest network of dealers. I wrote to the parent company telling them that I have bookmarked their website (which lists all their dealers around the country) and further informing them that I will not buy from any dealership that is connected to them. The first question I ask a dealership is "Are you connected in any way to ___'s Auto Group?" If the answer is yes I thank them for their time and leave.
Consider waiting the same number of days that you waited for your check. If the dealer calls,"The letter is in the mail."