Keeping in mind the 43' DRV floorplans, all of which have a GVWR of 23,000 lbs, you will want nothing less than the equivalent of a Ford F450. The F450 is about the smallest of what is called the MDT (Medium Duty Truck) class of trucks. The larger ones in that same category are those like the mini-Freightliners. There are some of the forum participants here that have those. Bigboomer has an extended MDT and you can see a picture of his truck in his signature at the bottom (last entry) at this link. Incidentally, most trucks do not have that big box. That same link is the one about Jack Mayer and his plans of a new HDT (Heavy Duty Truck), which is also known as a Class 8 truck. Jack's entry there has links where you can see what kind of truck he has.
My opinion would be that if you go with either the larger MDT's or an HDT, you would have little reason to worry about torque, brake type and size, wheel size, etc. With the Ford F450, some of the newer models have gone to a smaller wheel (17" in size), compared to the older F450's which had 19.5" wheels. With the larger wheels on the F450, the brakes would also be larger. Our 2008 F450 has the larger wheels. The older F450's also have a GVWR of 14,500 lbs while the newer F450's have a GVWR of around 14,000 lbs.
As far as I know, all of the F450's are a long bed, 4-door truck. I think that most of the MDT's will also have 4 doors, but I won't say for sure. Personally (and all of us differ), I don't like the HDT trucks because I used to drive those and the field of vision is limited in comparison to the F450's (an actual pickup truck) and many of the MDT's. The latter trucks have more windows which one can use for looking around when backing or otherwise maneuvering around.
Now, some of the MDT's (perhaps all) and the HDT's can have air ride suspension. They may all also have air ride seats. The F450's will not unless someone added them aftermarket. Otherwise, the F450's have springs for suspension. Some folks have been known to add air bags to their pickups, but I've never done that, so I can't speak to how those affect the ride of the truck.
The engine type you will want will definitely be a diesel because they have far more power and can handle heavier weights than most gasoline engines. Torque on most of the engines in the pickup style will be around 800 ft pounds, but I don't know that the bigger ones are rated at. However, any of the MDT's and HDT's will be sufficient.
With the larger MDT's and the HDT's you will want to make sure that they come with an engine brake or exhaust brake. When those are engaged while driving, they help a LOT with keeping one's rig at a reasonable speed on long down slopes such as mountain passes. Many of the Ford F450's can be (and may always be) equipped with a transmission (automatic) that has a "Tow/Haul" package built within it. That feature on the transmission works like the engine or exhaust brakes in helping the F450's on the long slopes. With the Tow/Haul, when one starts down the downhill side, one taps the brakes and the transmission automatically kicks in and does its things. When I was researching all this, I was told that they worked very well.
Body style on the bed is next. Going back to bigboomer's picture of his truck shows the "bed" back behind that large box and it is called a "Hauler bed." A hauler bed is pretty much a flat be WITHOUT any side rails. If you've looked at the bed of a regular pickup, it is in a box style bed with sides all around and tailgate in the back. Either kind will take a fifth wheel. One can get a pickup and have the pickup box removed and install a hauler bed.
Fifth wheel hitches are those needed for the fifth wheel trailers. There are a number of manufacturers that you can choose from. With any of them, you want to make sure that the hitch is rated at a weight higher than the weight of the DRV 43' trailer (23,000 lbs), so be sure and ask around for those. The hitches come in what are called standard hitches like this:
As you can see with this one, there are two rails that bolt to the floor of the truck bed and the hitch fastens into those rails and locked in place with something like steel pins. The handle to the left is the one used to unfasten the jaws of the fifth wheel hitch. Normally, when one backs up and hooks into that fifth wheel hitch, the jaws automatically snap shut and the handle moves inward. It is ALWAYS a good thing to actually look to verify that the hitch's jaws have closed before moving the trailer.
They also make air ride fifth wheel hitchs like these:
While the DRV's can be equipped with the Trail-Air pin boxes, an air ride fifth wheel hitch will have more robust air bags to help cushion the ride better. With the trailer, I recommend that you get one with the MorRyde suspension instead of the normal axles and suspension. With a MorRyde suspension on the trailer, the air ride fifth wheel hitches will really be a benefit to you.
If I've not answered enough of your questions, or if more come to mind, feel free to ask away.
Terry
-- Edited by Terry and Jo on Tuesday 12th of February 2013 08:11:56 PM
cherylbrv said
01:40 AM Feb 13, 2013
Now that I've pretty much finished my research on what RV I want (43' DRV custom layout) and where I want to establish my domicile (FL), I'm down to researching the tow vehicle (obviously, I have to wait until I purchase the RV and have the exact weights to work with, but I'd at least like to have my options narrowed down). I thought it would be down to the top 3, but with all this information, I'm learning that there's so much I don't know that I didn't know!!! So many options beyond the weight and towing ratings I need to consider, and this is all totally foreign to me! It's becoming very scary, and I'm starting to feel a bit overwhelmed, that even once I have all the weights figured out, it still won't be enough to make an intelligent decision.
These are some of the terms or items I'm coming across: brake type, suspension type, engine type, torque, tire size, transmission type (must be automatic), hitch type (we want the kind that you just back into and it connects), body style where the hitch would go.
Until now, we were looking closely at a long bed pickup style so that hubby could put his tool box and ladder behind the hitch (mostly Ford F450 or Ram 3500) although they could also go in the scout vehicle if necessary. It's only us driving so no need for a crew cab or additional seating. Not sure yet how often we'll be traveling or to where, but we're assuming we don't want to leave any stone unturned, so that would include mountains and rocky roads.
Can you pros out there tell me--
1) how important the above items are to consider (are they mandatory for safety or just "nice to have's")? 2) if mandatory, what are the criteria I should be using to decide what the truck should include to pull a 43'er? (ex: must have exhaust brakes) 3) what other mandatory for safety items am I missing? 4) will I be able to find all these required features in a used truck and if not, where would I get them installed (and would the price still be lower than buying brand new)? (I actually started looking at UHaul's used trucks but again, no clue what else I need to be looking for besides the weight). I looked at the Freighliner website but nothing is RV ready and I wouldn't know what to ask for.
Thanks so much!
MarkS said
08:42 AM Feb 13, 2013
My HDT is rated at 550 HP 1850 ft lbs of torque. HDT is not for everyone. I'm pretty sure some of us have a big truck fetish and the rest are compensating for something. Naturally, I'm in the fetish group.
cherylbrv said
10:29 AM Feb 13, 2013
If I need to retrofit, should I start out with a cab/chassis model or a flatbed style (my search on International and Freightliner doesn't give hauler as an option)? Also, will a rear axle rating of 17500 be enough to pull the rig (approx. GVWR is 23000#) (answering my own question -- I believe it is the weight of the pin -- about 20% of the GVWR - that's used in determining whether the truck's rear axle weight rating is adequate. Correct?) . Actually, I found a recreational category for Freightliner.
Les (aka bigboomer) -- do you have any photos of how your 5er is hitched? From your photo above, it looks like the bed of the truck where the hitch is attached is way lower than the pin on the RV. Is that just my still-learning perspective, or do you have it raised?
-- Edited by cherylbrv on Wednesday 13th of February 2013 10:59:32 AM
cherylbrv said
10:45 AM Feb 13, 2013
Here's another question (truck terms I don't understand): what is drive side and left hand drive? It is an automatic transmission. I'm looking at a Freightliner M2 106 (any comments on that model)?
Actually, let me further refine my question: if I were to choose this as a truck base: http://www.truckpaper.com/listingsdetail/detail.aspx?OHID=3945525 - what would I need to do to turn it into something I could hitch my rig to, who would do it, and what type of costs are we talking about? Is this even a model I could consider? Or do I need to start out with a plain chassis or flat bed?
Sorry for so many questions, but the biggest thing I've ever driven is a minivan, and this is such new territory. And many of the articles I'm finding on the internet are just way over my head.
-- Edited by cherylbrv on Wednesday 13th of February 2013 10:57:37 AM
Jack Mayer said
12:50 PM Feb 13, 2013
Your budget has you on the edge of not being able to do what you want "optimally". Couple of comments....
Take a look at my website.... jackdanmayer.com It will answer many of your questions on larger trucks. You are gong to need a MINIMUM of an F450, as Mike said. And there are considerable advantages to the bigger trucks, including the ability to piggyback a car, and using it as a mini-motorhome for multiple-day side trips.
My 2012 New Horizons is now officially for sale. I will be building a new one as soon as this one sells. You may want to look at that for ideas on the DRV....although DRV will not do half the things that are on it.
If you have questions on trucks or the trailer feel free to contact me or ask here. I'm happy to answer questions.
On edit: that truck would be about the worst choice you could make for an RV hauler. If you want a turnkey HDT let me know and I can hook you up with the proper party to do that. But you need to do your research first. Like I said - happy to answer questions.
-- Edited by Jack Mayer on Wednesday 13th of February 2013 12:52:43 PM
bigboomer said
02:33 PM Feb 13, 2013
Cheryl,
You are doing all the right things by researching and askign questions, that is how all of us started and continue to grow. Picking a TV can be daunting but as Terry pointed out one of the factors for picking a TV is pulling capacity and in my opinion stopping capacity. A lot of pick-ups will pull some of the heavier rigs but stopping a 18,000 lb trailer with a 3/4 or 1 ton pick-up is not something I was comfortable with. We had specific needs for building our truck because we needed somewhere to haul and store our bikes and did not like the toy haulers from a full-timer stand point. There are many ways to go about this and I would suggest going the route of Jack Mayer where he carefully selected a very well taken care of HDT (or MDT) and have it retro fitted. Our builder, Wayland Long of 2L Custom Trucks does this and is one of nicest people I have met and did business with.
Our route of going with a new MDT over a used HDT or MDt was two fold. One that we needed to have the extra rail length to accomodate the garage and hauler bed and two we wanted the less miles, warranties, etc. on the drive train.
Depending on where your finances are this will also determine what might be better for you as to new or used. A new MDT with custom mods is going to run you in the low to mid 100's depending on what you have done where as a really good used HDT might run you into the 70's to 80's with custom mods.
Keep asking and we will keep assisting!
Good Luck,
Les
Jack Mayer said
02:58 PM Feb 13, 2013
All the items you note are important. On an F450 the correct configurations of these (other than the hitch) are already on the truck. That is part of what makes it's rating what it is. One thing you do want to select on the 450 is the rear end ratio. I would not get a 4.88 (assuming it is still available - I have not looked) - a 4.3 ratio (or in that area) works fine.
For a hitch, IMO you want an air ride hitch. I do NOT like the air ride part being on the trailer, if you are starting from scratch. It is more effective and operates better on the truck. SO a standard kingpin and hitch head on the trailer, and an air ride hitch on the truck is the preferred configuration, again IMO. I happen to like Trailersaver, but there are other choices.
If you are buying a new truck I would seriously consider getting a hauler body on it. Something like the Classy Chassis is a good body to have. It gives you exceptional storage, and it gives you better clearance to the 5er. On a used truck you can change out to that, but it adds to the cost.
The truck you noted in the ad is a box truck. It is not intended to run comfortably at highway speed for long periods of time. It is set up for in-city delivery. It will not have the gearing , hp or torque to make a satisfactory RV hauler. More importantly it will be incredibly uncomfortable. It is simply not intended for a driver to use for long periods of time. It is not a good candidate for conversion because it does not have the required basic elements. I would STRONGLY caution you against trying to handle an MDT or HDT conversion yourself. It does require a certain amount of knowledge to even select the candidate truck, and then you have to handle the conversion itself. As I said, should you choose to go HDT I can point you to a turnkey conversion - I get nothing from it.
-- Edited by Jack Mayer on Wednesday 13th of February 2013 03:23:06 PM
-- Edited by Jack Mayer on Wednesday 13th of February 2013 03:23:52 PM
cherylbrv said
07:03 PM Feb 13, 2013
Regarding budget - if we can get our asking price on the house, we're looking at a TOTAL budget (for the RV, TV, hitch and other requirements) in the range of $150-170K. Looks like we may be able to build the RV in about the $125 range; so that doesn't really leave a lot for the truck. Has to be used.
Again, still in the research stage, as there is still one obstacle after the next being thrown at us in trying to get the house market ready!
And, as always, your help and knowledge is greatly appreciated!
cherylbrv said
09:07 PM Feb 13, 2013
Thanks, Jack. If I were to consider the F450 (which was my starting point), then I'm back to the original questions I had asked, which are:
These are some of the terms or items I'm coming across: brake type, suspension type, engine type, torque, tire size, transmission type (must be automatic), hitch type (we want the kind that you just back into and it connects), body style where the hitch would go.
1) how important the above items are to consider (are they mandatory for safety or just "nice to have's")? 2) if mandatory, what are the criteria I should be using to decide what the truck should include to pull a 43'er? (ex: must have exhaust brakes) 3) what other mandatory for safety items am I missing? 4) will I be able to find all these required features in a used truck and if not, where would I get them installed (and would the price still be lower than buying brand new)? I understand that with a higher end MDT or an HDT, I don't need to worry about those terms.
Also, if I may ask - what is your reason for saying the Freightliner was my "worst choice." Clearly, since all the specs listed are still somewhat -- ok, mostly -- meaningless to me, what specs should I be looking for or at and how does this choice not fit the bill?
cherylbrv said
11:18 PM Feb 13, 2013
Thanks, Jack. Extremely helpful. Trust me, I am not going to handle ANYTHING by myself!!!! I'm asking all these questions with the hopes that I won't have to do any conversions, but if I do, to know what needs converting.
I don't know if I thanked you, too, Terry, for the incredible amount of information. And everyone else who has responded.
Terry and Jo said
11:55 PM Feb 13, 2013
I'm glad that I can help, Cheryl.
To touch on something that Jack brought up, the newer Ford F450's have the 4:30 rear differential instead of the 4:88. There are a couple of factors to them in that the 4:30 will get better gas mileage than the 4:88 will because the 4:88 is geared lower. In my case, Jo and I plan on traversing a number of mountain passes when we finally get to travel and the 4:88 with its lower gearing helps the truck to pull the load up the grades better. If we were going to be in a position to have to use the F450 as our daily driver as well as our tow vehicle, then I would likely have looked for a higher geared ratio. Should you decide to look at used trucks, be sure and ask what the rear axle differential is on the prospective truck.
As for the hauler body instead of a pickup truck body, a lot of that depends on what one will want the truck to carry. One would want to look at the storage bins on a hauler body to see if those compartments would be able to hold what you want to put in them.
The website above is for Mountain Master Truck Equipment. They manufacturer some nice hauler bodies.
Edit by moderator: Activated link. Terry
-- Edited by Terry and Jo on Thursday 14th of February 2013 03:44:08 PM
bigboomer said
09:28 PM Feb 14, 2013
Cheryl,
Here is a picture of the back of our truck. The hitch is set down on the frame rails between the hauler body skin.
Thanks,
Les
Terry and Jo said
03:00 AM Feb 15, 2013
Between Bear's comment about Mountain Masters with the M2's and the reference over on SOITC with the SportsChassis, most of those will be pretty well set up for either gooseneck operations for horse trailers or fifth wheel hitches for RV's. With some of them, someone might have to change out one kind of hitch for the other, depending on what one needs.
The heavier MDT's will also have the benefit of having an air system with a compressor on the engine. That would be a benefit as someone could install a control and air lines for an air ride fifth wheel hitch.
However, when you go to looking, you will see that they aren't cheap. When we were researching, the only thing available in the Oklahoma City area were the SportChassis models. (Those are built out at Clinton, Oklahoma.) The ones we looked at were all used and were selling for around $90,000. When we ran across our 2008 Ford F450 at about $36,000 asking price, we jumped at that opportunity because it would be so much cheaper.
Some of the older ones can still be had if one looks around. Here is one out at our favorite car dealer, the one where we bought our F450.
The nice thing about the Hensley Trailersaver hitches is the fact that it comes with a gooseneck head which is easily switched out with the 5th wheel head should the need arise to pull a horse trailer, etc. Regardless of what truck you have you cannot beat the trailersaver series
Cheryl,
Knowing how maticulous Jack is with his designs and thus his maintenance if his rigs for what the cost of a new MDT or to buy an HDT and convert it, you would be wise and it would be money well spent to look into Jack's tractor that is for sale. It ready to go with no further prep needed!
Les
cherylbrv said
03:16 PM Feb 15, 2013
bigboomer wrote:Knowing how maticulous Jack is with his designs and thus his maintenance if his rigs for what the cost of a new MDT or to buy an HDT and convert it, you would be wise and it would be money well spent to look into Jack's tractor that is for sale. It ready to go with no further prep needed!
I suspect Jack's truck is waaay out of my price range, but it is also way too much truck for us. We absolutely don't need something that we can sleep or live in - just something to pull the rig no more than 2-300 miles at a time. I think I'm back on the fence, again leaning a little towards retrofitting an F450. It will all boil down to the weight numbers after we buy the RV and how much money is left over to buy the truck.
All in good time though. We're still dealing with ridiculously trivial matters holding up getting the house market ready. And if it's not small stuff, then it's lack of funds!!!
VanMar said
03:41 PM Feb 15, 2013
Jack Mayer wrote:
Your budget has you on the edge of not being able to do what you want "optimally".
Cheryl,
Not really a suggestion here, more of a thought. I'm thinking I might downsize the fiver and get a nicer, more capable TV. I'm seeing you pulling a full-tilt, custom built, 43', $125k, DRV with whatever you have left over from the sale of the house....possibly only $25k. I really can't see me doing that, but that's just me. In brainstorming the options, is there the least little chance of maybe getting a unit off the dealers lot, or maybe custom ordering a unit, in the $90-100k range? You would then have $50-60k for a nice tow vehicle. Just a thought. Best of wishes with whatever you decide.
Vance
cherylbrv said
04:20 PM Feb 15, 2013
Hi Vance,
I've certainly considered and researched that (even other companies besides DRV). One of the major items is that both my husband and I have jobs that require working remotely on our computers, so having 2 desks -- preferably a separate office space, is a required part of the floorplan. Originally we were thinking about a model with a desk for one of us and the other could use the table (or the counter in a peninsula kitchen floorplan), but (1) it needs to be a permanent work area in which we don't have to keep moving the laptop (except to work outdoors!); and (2) a separate office area is preferred because the laptops and our paperwork tend to make the space look cluttered and clutter gives me a lot of stress and anxiety, especially in a main living area (therefore kitchen table or counter will not work).
We found that almost any unit that has a separate bunk area could potentially suffice if the bunks were replaced with desks. However, although my husband can build any kind of computer system (from a simple PC to an international network), he hardly knows how to use a hammer (exaggerating just a tad here--he CAN use a hammer, but really doesn't have handyman skills beyond that)! And I'm even worse, so a seemingly simple furniture swap here is beyond our capabilities. So far we have been unable to find any dealer or manufacturer who was willing or able to do customizations of this sort beyond DRV or New Horizons, and those dealers we did find who could work with us, didn't carry the brands we felt would adequately live up to full timing standards, or the brands that did, didn't have a floorplan we could start with. And unfortunately, this is even more true if we buy the unit used.
We'll still keep looking and keep all our options open. Budget will definitely be a major deciding factor. Maybe we'll be lucky enough that when we're ready to make the purchase, someone else who had the same office needs will have one for sale. Or maybe there's someone here reading the forum who would like to earn a few $$$ and do the custom work for us.
Lucky Mike said
04:30 PM Feb 15, 2013
Cheryl......there are several quality small shops all over that can do the mods you are thinking of.....in fact if you look locally around you check with a cabinet maker , they can do it correctly and give you a nice finished piece!!
cherylbrv said
04:41 PM Feb 15, 2013
Thanks, Mike. I guess this is another avenue I haven't yet explored. It's scary just how naive I am (or a better description is that I'm not thinking out of the box), and I truly appreciate all the advice I'm getting from my new found family here at the RV Dreams forum!
I guess I'm thinking that all RV work needs to be performed by people with RV experience. But we are just talking about basic cabinetry here, aren't we? If a professional cabinet maker can work inside a home, why can't he work inside a trailer? Pretty much the same basics, right? So.... another great research project. I think at some point I was considering the Heartland Landmark series (they don't do customizations which is why I moved over to DRV), but now that I know I can probably get some work done beyond an RV dealer or mfgr, it does indeed open more options if need be.
bigboomer said
05:02 PM Feb 15, 2013
Cheryl,
One thing you can also consider on some of the non-custom brands (Keystone, Heartland, etc.) is that like we have considered is to take some of the standard bulky RV furniture out and add desks, etc. to your liking. In our model we really do not need the big pull out sofa so we will eventually take that our and put a nice desk and chair for us to work at.
Just a thought.
Les
cherylbrv said
05:09 PM Feb 15, 2013
Good thought, but there might be occasions (very rare, but still....) when I may have overnight or weekend guests, so I'd need a pull out bed sofa.
bigboomer said
06:42 PM Feb 15, 2013
If we ever get weekend or overnight guests they can have two options....sleeping bags or tent! Or if they are really lucky and the CG we are at has cabins they are in for a treat!
cherylbrv said
06:56 PM Feb 15, 2013
Hmmm.... again, I really need to start thinking out of the box!!!! Thanks so much! I actually do still own a tent and can even invest in a new sleeping bag and even an air mattress, and the odds of anyone in the family actually staying with us are extremely slim. So now I can go back to exploring floorplans that have one desk, and changing out the sofa for another desk! And that means it can be a smaller model, which in turn means a smaller truck. Oh, the possibilities that exist in simplicity!!!
bigboomer said
07:40 PM Feb 15, 2013
Montana has a new floor plan called 3900 with a front bath and a half bath in the front
Yeah, it is kind of neat. But, then with two bathrooms and three bathroom type sinks the washer and dryer have to go into the front closet space. There is a lot of space taken up there that might be better utilized. I need to see if I can find an actual unit to look at.
Bigboomer,
Aren't some of the TrailerSaver hitches rated below the 23,000 lbs that a 43-foot DRV would weigh. I was thinking the one that hooks to regular bed rails like a Reese would have were only rated at 20,000 lbs.
Terry
MarkS said
07:26 AM Feb 16, 2013
To each his own but, IMHO, that is an incredible waste of very precious space. Give me more kitchen counters and keep the extra toilet. Invest additional space where I live, not where I poop. Give me storage, entertainment, functional useful space. I don't want a fifth wheel that tries to emulate my s&b. Where's the hot tub and pool?
PIEERE said
09:26 AM Feb 16, 2013
bigboomer wrote:
Cheryl,
Here is a picture of the back of our truck. The hitch is set down on the frame rails between the hauler body skin.
Thanks,
Les
That's the Idea!!! You pull a big trailer with a big rig!!!!!! I couldn't resist the temptation any more!!!!!
-- Edited by PIEERE on Saturday 16th of February 2013 09:27:37 AM
bigboomer said
02:00 PM Feb 16, 2013
Terry,
Yes the max rating for the TS air ride hitches for what they call out for pick-up trucks is 20k. They also make a fixed hitch similar to Reese with a 32k rating. Depending on the hauler bed mods a 450 would I hae seen the 32k air ride install on 450's and up.
MarkS,
I along with many Montana owners agree with you on the loss of space with the front bath on the 3900 layout and I have even forwarded a plan to them showing the front bath with an option to make into a utility room with w/d hook-ups and pantry closets.
Montana is good at listening to their customers ideas so we will see how they progress.
DorisandDave said
03:37 AM Feb 17, 2013
Cheryl, we have a 40 ft 2010 DRV that we have changed out furniture. Because we do a lot of computer work, we took our dining table out and put in a desk right by that window lengthwise. Large enough for 2 laptops and some space in the middle for a shelf and some desktop storage. With the laptops open and in use there is just enough space in front of them for our dinner plates. In fact I am eating and typing this as we speak. :)
We haul our 5er with a 2008 f450 crew cab. 4.88 rear end. It has a tool box behind the cab and an aux fuel tank under that. We've been hauling the 5er for 3 years now and have no problems, pulling or stopping. (except for a blown turbo hose the first year, but that was not a big deal and no trouble since) We've even been over the mountains west of Denver no problemo. An additonal thing to think about on these big trucks is the fuel mileage. You'll get 7 to 8 mpg so be sure and plan for that in your budget.
I might could get the DH to chime in here if you have any specific questions.
Doris
NWescapee said
01:54 AM Feb 28, 2013
Cheryl - like you, both of us will be working full time from our RV. We definitely didn't want a rig where we have to work in the same area, he uses tools that can be a bit noisy and I spend 4-8 hours a day on the phone in conf calls, etc. We also really liked the DRV 5vers but didn't necessarily want to have to buy a new one.
In December we purchased a used DRV 2010 mobile suites with a built in desk that will be my permanent workspace. Since we seldom stay anywhere with full hookups Dale decided to have the washer/dryer removed and plans on putting in a pull out table / drawers, etc. in the area where the washer was located. We have an artist friend who is a former architect, he's willing to provide some input once we get our trailer home on suggestions to refit the laundry area and make it into a work / storage area for Dale's business. I'm happy since my husband is a clutter bug, all his work "stuff" will be able to be closed in behind the laundry doors when he's done for the day. I tend to clutter less and can get by with far less space for my work.
We spent a lot of time researching and looking at different floor plans, considered a toy hauler, units that had bunks we could convert etc. and finally came up with a plan that we think will work best for us and our situation. We're not necessarily great at making the rennovations that would be needed, but we know people who can help and we're not afraid to ask for help and advice. We found that by being willing to consider some rennovations that our options were greatly expanded and didn't have to custom order a 125K new trailer.
We then ordered a For F450 to be built to our specs because we couldn't find one without leather (we travel with a cat) with everything else we wanted. In total between the truck and the trailer we fit within the budget you've set up for yourself.
Lots of options out there, and lots of people who can help make rennovations if you need them.
Delaine and Lindy said
02:17 AM Feb 28, 2013
Great comments by all, I loved our Freightliner M2. But we went back to a GM 3500 didn't need the Freighliner. We had a Trailer Saver 32,000 air ride hitch mounted on the Freightliner. We have since down graded again, as of today we no longer have the 2012 Chevy 3500. We are no longer RVing. Picked up my 2013 Chevy 1500 4x4 today, first time in over 10 years there isn't a Diesel Truck in our drive way. Happy Trails..
P.S. I still have a Trailer Saver TS 3 air ride hitch for sale. 931-589-3390.
Cyclone Dave said
11:20 PM Feb 28, 2013
Hi Cheryl,
I don't get on this forum much but a little birdie sent me here to check out your forum thread. You're going for a really nice rig. Since it does have 23,000 GVWR, you'll definitely need a truck that has no less than a GCWR of 33,000 pounds. I know of only one pickup truck available that meets that requirement. That is the: 2013 Ford F-450, 6.7L Power Stroke Turbo Diesel V8, Axle Ratio 4.3:1, DRW 4X4, with towing package.
Other than that, you’ll need an MDT or some other custom built truck. Personally, if I were in the market for a DRV, I’d go for a MDT with a long wheel base so that I could carry my smart ForTwo car behind the cab. Currently I carry my smart in my toy hauler’s garage.
Hope you find what you need. Remember, get a truck no less than GVWR of 33,000 pounds.
-- Edited by Cyclone Dave on Thursday 28th of February 2013 11:50:24 PM
rvingft said
05:52 AM Mar 1, 2013
And what about getting a cabinet company (there are RV specialty custom cabinet makers in Goshen, IN) who could build you both a custom desk/office configuration that works for both of you?
Delaine and Lindy said
11:16 PM Mar 1, 2013
Trailer Saver now makes the Trailer Saver 32,000 capacity that will fit the basic bed-rails. I had the TS 32,000 bolted to a 1/2" steel plate on the FL.
The Trailer Saver TS that I have for sale, as Les stated can also have the Gooseneck ball mounted in place of the Hensley 5th wheel head, I also have the TS for sale and whom ever buys will get the Gooseneck ball mount also. Happy Trails... ...
Cheryl,
Keeping in mind the 43' DRV floorplans, all of which have a GVWR of 23,000 lbs, you will want nothing less than the equivalent of a Ford F450. The F450 is about the smallest of what is called the MDT (Medium Duty Truck) class of trucks. The larger ones in that same category are those like the mini-Freightliners. There are some of the forum participants here that have those. Bigboomer has an extended MDT and you can see a picture of his truck in his signature at the bottom (last entry) at this link. Incidentally, most trucks do not have that big box. That same link is the one about Jack Mayer and his plans of a new HDT (Heavy Duty Truck), which is also known as a Class 8 truck. Jack's entry there has links where you can see what kind of truck he has.
My opinion would be that if you go with either the larger MDT's or an HDT, you would have little reason to worry about torque, brake type and size, wheel size, etc. With the Ford F450, some of the newer models have gone to a smaller wheel (17" in size), compared to the older F450's which had 19.5" wheels. With the larger wheels on the F450, the brakes would also be larger. Our 2008 F450 has the larger wheels. The older F450's also have a GVWR of 14,500 lbs while the newer F450's have a GVWR of around 14,000 lbs.
As far as I know, all of the F450's are a long bed, 4-door truck. I think that most of the MDT's will also have 4 doors, but I won't say for sure. Personally (and all of us differ), I don't like the HDT trucks because I used to drive those and the field of vision is limited in comparison to the F450's (an actual pickup truck) and many of the MDT's. The latter trucks have more windows which one can use for looking around when backing or otherwise maneuvering around.
Now, some of the MDT's (perhaps all) and the HDT's can have air ride suspension. They may all also have air ride seats. The F450's will not unless someone added them aftermarket. Otherwise, the F450's have springs for suspension. Some folks have been known to add air bags to their pickups, but I've never done that, so I can't speak to how those affect the ride of the truck.
The engine type you will want will definitely be a diesel because they have far more power and can handle heavier weights than most gasoline engines. Torque on most of the engines in the pickup style will be around 800 ft pounds, but I don't know that the bigger ones are rated at. However, any of the MDT's and HDT's will be sufficient.
With the larger MDT's and the HDT's you will want to make sure that they come with an engine brake or exhaust brake. When those are engaged while driving, they help a LOT with keeping one's rig at a reasonable speed on long down slopes such as mountain passes. Many of the Ford F450's can be (and may always be) equipped with a transmission (automatic) that has a "Tow/Haul" package built within it. That feature on the transmission works like the engine or exhaust brakes in helping the F450's on the long slopes. With the Tow/Haul, when one starts down the downhill side, one taps the brakes and the transmission automatically kicks in and does its things. When I was researching all this, I was told that they worked very well.
Body style on the bed is next. Going back to bigboomer's picture of his truck shows the "bed" back behind that large box and it is called a "Hauler bed." A hauler bed is pretty much a flat be WITHOUT any side rails. If you've looked at the bed of a regular pickup, it is in a box style bed with sides all around and tailgate in the back. Either kind will take a fifth wheel. One can get a pickup and have the pickup box removed and install a hauler bed.
Fifth wheel hitches are those needed for the fifth wheel trailers. There are a number of manufacturers that you can choose from. With any of them, you want to make sure that the hitch is rated at a weight higher than the weight of the DRV 43' trailer (23,000 lbs), so be sure and ask around for those. The hitches come in what are called standard hitches like this:
As you can see with this one, there are two rails that bolt to the floor of the truck bed and the hitch fastens into those rails and locked in place with something like steel pins. The handle to the left is the one used to unfasten the jaws of the fifth wheel hitch. Normally, when one backs up and hooks into that fifth wheel hitch, the jaws automatically snap shut and the handle moves inward. It is ALWAYS a good thing to actually look to verify that the hitch's jaws have closed before moving the trailer.
They also make air ride fifth wheel hitchs like these:
While the DRV's can be equipped with the Trail-Air pin boxes, an air ride fifth wheel hitch will have more robust air bags to help cushion the ride better. With the trailer, I recommend that you get one with the MorRyde suspension instead of the normal axles and suspension. With a MorRyde suspension on the trailer, the air ride fifth wheel hitches will really be a benefit to you.
If I've not answered enough of your questions, or if more come to mind, feel free to ask away.
Terry
-- Edited by Terry and Jo on Tuesday 12th of February 2013 08:11:56 PM
Now that I've pretty much finished my research on what RV I want (43' DRV custom layout) and where I want to establish my domicile (FL), I'm down to researching the tow vehicle (obviously, I have to wait until I purchase the RV and have the exact weights to work with, but I'd at least like to have my options narrowed down). I thought it would be down to the top 3, but with all this information, I'm learning that there's so much I don't know that I didn't know!!! So many options beyond the weight and towing ratings I need to consider, and this is all totally foreign to me! It's becoming very scary, and I'm starting to feel a bit overwhelmed, that even once I have all the weights figured out, it still won't be enough to make an intelligent decision.
These are some of the terms or items I'm coming across: brake type, suspension type, engine type, torque, tire size, transmission type (must be automatic), hitch type (we want the kind that you just back into and it connects), body style where the hitch would go.
Until now, we were looking closely at a long bed pickup style so that hubby could put his tool box and ladder behind the hitch (mostly Ford F450 or Ram 3500) although they could also go in the scout vehicle if necessary. It's only us driving so no need for a crew cab or additional seating. Not sure yet how often we'll be traveling or to where, but we're assuming we don't want to leave any stone unturned, so that would include mountains and rocky roads.
Can you pros out there tell me--
1) how important the above items are to consider (are they mandatory for safety or just "nice to have's")?
2) if mandatory, what are the criteria I should be using to decide what the truck should include to pull a 43'er? (ex: must have exhaust brakes)
3) what other mandatory for safety items am I missing?
4) will I be able to find all these required features in a used truck and if not, where would I get them installed (and would the price still be lower than buying brand new)? (I actually started looking at UHaul's used trucks but again, no clue what else I need to be looking for besides the weight). I looked at the Freighliner website but nothing is RV ready and I wouldn't know what to ask for.
Thanks so much!
If I need to retrofit, should I start out with a cab/chassis model or a flatbed style (my search on International and Freightliner doesn't give hauler as an option)? Also, will a rear axle rating of 17500 be enough to pull the rig (approx. GVWR is 23000#) (answering my own question -- I believe it is the weight of the pin -- about 20% of the GVWR - that's used in determining whether the truck's rear axle weight rating is adequate. Correct?) . Actually, I found a recreational category for Freightliner.
Les (aka bigboomer) -- do you have any photos of how your 5er is hitched? From your photo above, it looks like the bed of the truck where the hitch is attached is way lower than the pin on the RV. Is that just my still-learning perspective, or do you have it raised?
-- Edited by cherylbrv on Wednesday 13th of February 2013 10:59:32 AM
Here's another question (truck terms I don't understand): what is drive side and left hand drive? It is an automatic transmission. I'm looking at a Freightliner M2 106 (any comments on that model)?
Actually, let me further refine my question: if I were to choose this as a truck base: http://www.truckpaper.com/listingsdetail/detail.aspx?OHID=3945525 - what would I need to do to turn it into something I could hitch my rig to, who would do it, and what type of costs are we talking about? Is this even a model I could consider? Or do I need to start out with a plain chassis or flat bed?
Sorry for so many questions, but the biggest thing I've ever driven is a minivan, and this is such new territory. And many of the articles I'm finding on the internet are just way over my head.
-- Edited by cherylbrv on Wednesday 13th of February 2013 10:57:37 AM
Your budget has you on the edge of not being able to do what you want "optimally". Couple of comments....
Take a look at my website.... jackdanmayer.com It will answer many of your questions on larger trucks. You are gong to need a MINIMUM of an F450, as Mike said. And there are considerable advantages to the bigger trucks, including the ability to piggyback a car, and using it as a mini-motorhome for multiple-day side trips.
My truck is for sale.
My 2012 New Horizons is now officially for sale. I will be building a new one as soon as this one sells. You may want to look at that for ideas on the DRV....although DRV will not do half the things that are on it.
If you have questions on trucks or the trailer feel free to contact me or ask here. I'm happy to answer questions.
On edit: that truck would be about the worst choice you could make for an RV hauler. If you want a turnkey HDT let me know and I can hook you up with the proper party to do that. But you need to do your research first. Like I said - happy to answer questions.
-- Edited by Jack Mayer on Wednesday 13th of February 2013 12:52:43 PM
Cheryl,
You are doing all the right things by researching and askign questions, that is how all of us started and continue to grow. Picking a TV can be daunting but as Terry pointed out one of the factors for picking a TV is pulling capacity and in my opinion stopping capacity. A lot of pick-ups will pull some of the heavier rigs but stopping a 18,000 lb trailer with a 3/4 or 1 ton pick-up is not something I was comfortable with. We had specific needs for building our truck because we needed somewhere to haul and store our bikes and did not like the toy haulers from a full-timer stand point. There are many ways to go about this and I would suggest going the route of Jack Mayer where he carefully selected a very well taken care of HDT (or MDT) and have it retro fitted. Our builder, Wayland Long of 2L Custom Trucks does this and is one of nicest people I have met and did business with.
Our route of going with a new MDT over a used HDT or MDt was two fold. One that we needed to have the extra rail length to accomodate the garage and hauler bed and two we wanted the less miles, warranties, etc. on the drive train.
Depending on where your finances are this will also determine what might be better for you as to new or used. A new MDT with custom mods is going to run you in the low to mid 100's depending on what you have done where as a really good used HDT might run you into the 70's to 80's with custom mods.
Keep asking and we will keep assisting!
Good Luck,
Les
All the items you note are important. On an F450 the correct configurations of these (other than the hitch) are already on the truck. That is part of what makes it's rating what it is. One thing you do want to select on the 450 is the rear end ratio. I would not get a 4.88 (assuming it is still available - I have not looked) - a 4.3 ratio (or in that area) works fine.
For a hitch, IMO you want an air ride hitch. I do NOT like the air ride part being on the trailer, if you are starting from scratch. It is more effective and operates better on the truck. SO a standard kingpin and hitch head on the trailer, and an air ride hitch on the truck is the preferred configuration, again IMO. I happen to like Trailersaver, but there are other choices.
If you are buying a new truck I would seriously consider getting a hauler body on it. Something like the Classy Chassis is a good body to have. It gives you exceptional storage, and it gives you better clearance to the 5er. On a used truck you can change out to that, but it adds to the cost.
The truck you noted in the ad is a box truck. It is not intended to run comfortably at highway speed for long periods of time. It is set up for in-city delivery. It will not have the gearing , hp or torque to make a satisfactory RV hauler. More importantly it will be incredibly uncomfortable. It is simply not intended for a driver to use for long periods of time. It is not a good candidate for conversion because it does not have the required basic elements. I would STRONGLY caution you against trying to handle an MDT or HDT conversion yourself. It does require a certain amount of knowledge to even select the candidate truck, and then you have to handle the conversion itself. As I said, should you choose to go HDT I can point you to a turnkey conversion - I get nothing from it.
-- Edited by Jack Mayer on Wednesday 13th of February 2013 03:23:06 PM
-- Edited by Jack Mayer on Wednesday 13th of February 2013 03:23:52 PM
Again, still in the research stage, as there is still one obstacle after the next being thrown at us in trying to get the house market ready!
And, as always, your help and knowledge is greatly appreciated!
Thanks, Jack. If I were to consider the F450 (which was my starting point), then I'm back to the original questions I had asked, which are:
These are some of the terms or items I'm coming across: brake type, suspension type, engine type, torque, tire size, transmission type (must be automatic), hitch type (we want the kind that you just back into and it connects), body style where the hitch would go.
1) how important the above items are to consider (are they mandatory for safety or just "nice to have's")?
2) if mandatory, what are the criteria I should be using to decide what the truck should include to pull a 43'er? (ex: must have exhaust brakes)
3) what other mandatory for safety items am I missing?
4) will I be able to find all these required features in a used truck and if not, where would I get them installed (and would the price still be lower than buying brand new)?
I understand that with a higher end MDT or an HDT, I don't need to worry about those terms.
Also, if I may ask - what is your reason for saying the Freightliner was my "worst choice." Clearly, since all the specs listed are still somewhat -- ok, mostly -- meaningless to me, what specs should I be looking for or at and how does this choice not fit the bill?
I don't know if I thanked you, too, Terry, for the incredible amount of information. And everyone else who has responded.
I'm glad that I can help, Cheryl.
To touch on something that Jack brought up, the newer Ford F450's have the 4:30 rear differential instead of the 4:88. There are a couple of factors to them in that the 4:30 will get better gas mileage than the 4:88 will because the 4:88 is geared lower. In my case, Jo and I plan on traversing a number of mountain passes when we finally get to travel and the 4:88 with its lower gearing helps the truck to pull the load up the grades better. If we were going to be in a position to have to use the F450 as our daily driver as well as our tow vehicle, then I would likely have looked for a higher geared ratio. Should you decide to look at used trucks, be sure and ask what the rear axle differential is on the prospective truck.
As for the hauler body instead of a pickup truck body, a lot of that depends on what one will want the truck to carry. One would want to look at the storage bins on a hauler body to see if those compartments would be able to hold what you want to put in them.
Terry
http://www.mountainmaster.net/
The website above is for Mountain Master Truck Equipment. They manufacturer some nice hauler bodies.
Edit by moderator: Activated link. Terry
-- Edited by Terry and Jo on Thursday 14th of February 2013 03:44:08 PM
Cheryl,
Here is a picture of the back of our truck. The hitch is set down on the frame rails between the hauler body skin.
Thanks,
Les
Between Bear's comment about Mountain Masters with the M2's and the reference over on SOITC with the SportsChassis, most of those will be pretty well set up for either gooseneck operations for horse trailers or fifth wheel hitches for RV's. With some of them, someone might have to change out one kind of hitch for the other, depending on what one needs.
The heavier MDT's will also have the benefit of having an air system with a compressor on the engine. That would be a benefit as someone could install a control and air lines for an air ride fifth wheel hitch.
However, when you go to looking, you will see that they aren't cheap. When we were researching, the only thing available in the Oklahoma City area were the SportChassis models. (Those are built out at Clinton, Oklahoma.) The ones we looked at were all used and were selling for around $90,000. When we ran across our 2008 Ford F450 at about $36,000 asking price, we jumped at that opportunity because it would be so much cheaper.
Some of the older ones can still be had if one looks around. Here is one out at our favorite car dealer, the one where we bought our F450.
Diffee Ford in El Reno, Oklahoma with a 2008 Ford F450.
Terry
Terry,
The nice thing about the Hensley Trailersaver hitches is the fact that it comes with a gooseneck head which is easily switched out with the 5th wheel head should the need arise to pull a horse trailer, etc. Regardless of what truck you have you cannot beat the trailersaver series
Cheryl,
Knowing how maticulous Jack is with his designs and thus his maintenance if his rigs for what the cost of a new MDT or to buy an HDT and convert it, you would be wise and it would be money well spent to look into Jack's tractor that is for sale. It ready to go with no further prep needed!
Les
I suspect Jack's truck is waaay out of my price range, but it is also way too much truck for us. We absolutely don't need something that we can sleep or live in - just something to pull the rig no more than 2-300 miles at a time. I think I'm back on the fence, again leaning a little towards retrofitting an F450. It will all boil down to the weight numbers after we buy the RV and how much money is left over to buy the truck.
All in good time though. We're still dealing with ridiculously trivial matters holding up getting the house market ready. And if it's not small stuff, then it's lack of funds!!!
Cheryl,
Not really a suggestion here, more of a thought. I'm thinking I might downsize the fiver and get a nicer, more capable TV. I'm seeing you pulling a full-tilt, custom built, 43', $125k, DRV with whatever you have left over from the sale of the house....possibly only $25k. I really can't see me doing that, but that's just me. In brainstorming the options, is there the least little chance of maybe getting a unit off the dealers lot, or maybe custom ordering a unit, in the $90-100k range? You would then have $50-60k for a nice tow vehicle. Just a thought. Best of wishes with whatever you decide.
Vance
I've certainly considered and researched that (even other companies besides DRV). One of the major items is that both my husband and I have jobs that require working remotely on our computers, so having 2 desks -- preferably a separate office space, is a required part of the floorplan. Originally we were thinking about a model with a desk for one of us and the other could use the table (or the counter in a peninsula kitchen floorplan), but (1) it needs to be a permanent work area in which we don't have to keep moving the laptop (except to work outdoors!); and (2) a separate office area is preferred because the laptops and our paperwork tend to make the space look cluttered and clutter gives me a lot of stress and anxiety, especially in a main living area (therefore kitchen table or counter will not work).
We found that almost any unit that has a separate bunk area could potentially suffice if the bunks were replaced with desks. However, although my husband can build any kind of computer system (from a simple PC to an international network), he hardly knows how to use a hammer (exaggerating just a tad here--he CAN use a hammer, but really doesn't have handyman skills beyond that)! And I'm even worse, so a seemingly simple furniture swap here is beyond our capabilities. So far we have been unable to find any dealer or manufacturer who was willing or able to do customizations of this sort beyond DRV or New Horizons, and those dealers we did find who could work with us, didn't carry the brands we felt would adequately live up to full timing standards, or the brands that did, didn't have a floorplan we could start with. And unfortunately, this is even more true if we buy the unit used.
We'll still keep looking and keep all our options open. Budget will definitely be a major deciding factor. Maybe we'll be lucky enough that when we're ready to make the purchase, someone else who had the same office needs will have one for sale. Or maybe there's someone here reading the forum who would like to earn a few $$$ and do the custom work for us.
Thanks, Mike. I guess this is another avenue I haven't yet explored. It's scary just how naive I am (or a better description is that I'm not thinking out of the box), and I truly appreciate all the advice I'm getting from my new found family here at the RV Dreams forum!
I guess I'm thinking that all RV work needs to be performed by people with RV experience. But we are just talking about basic cabinetry here, aren't we? If a professional cabinet maker can work inside a home, why can't he work inside a trailer? Pretty much the same basics, right? So.... another great research project. I think at some point I was considering the Heartland Landmark series (they don't do customizations which is why I moved over to DRV), but now that I know I can probably get some work done beyond an RV dealer or mfgr, it does indeed open more options if need be.
Cheryl,
One thing you can also consider on some of the non-custom brands (Keystone, Heartland, etc.) is that like we have considered is to take some of the standard bulky RV furniture out and add desks, etc. to your liking. In our model we really do not need the big pull out sofa so we will eventually take that our and put a nice desk and chair for us to work at.
Just a thought.
Les
If we ever get weekend or overnight guests they can have two options....sleeping bags or tent! Or if they are really lucky and the CG we are at has cabins they are in for a treat!
Montana has a new floor plan called 3900 with a front bath and a half bath in the front
http://montana.keystonerv.com/
Yeah, it is kind of neat. But, then with two bathrooms and three bathroom type sinks the washer and dryer have to go into the front closet space. There is a lot of space taken up there that might be better utilized. I need to see if I can find an actual unit to look at.
Bigboomer,
Aren't some of the TrailerSaver hitches rated below the 23,000 lbs that a 43-foot DRV would weigh. I was thinking the one that hooks to regular bed rails like a Reese would have were only rated at 20,000 lbs.
Terry
-- Edited by PIEERE on Saturday 16th of February 2013 09:27:37 AM
We haul our 5er with a 2008 f450 crew cab. 4.88 rear end. It has a tool box behind the cab and an aux fuel tank under that. We've been hauling the 5er for 3 years now and have no problems, pulling or stopping. (except for a blown turbo hose the first year, but that was not a big deal and no trouble since) We've even been over the mountains west of Denver no problemo. An additonal thing to think about on these big trucks is the fuel mileage. You'll get 7 to 8 mpg so be sure and plan for that in your budget.
I might could get the DH to chime in here if you have any specific questions.
Doris
In December we purchased a used DRV 2010 mobile suites with a built in desk that will be my permanent workspace. Since we seldom stay anywhere with full hookups Dale decided to have the washer/dryer removed and plans on putting in a pull out table / drawers, etc. in the area where the washer was located. We have an artist friend who is a former architect, he's willing to provide some input once we get our trailer home on suggestions to refit the laundry area and make it into a work / storage area for Dale's business. I'm happy since my husband is a clutter bug, all his work "stuff" will be able to be closed in behind the laundry doors when he's done for the day. I tend to clutter less and can get by with far less space for my work.
We spent a lot of time researching and looking at different floor plans, considered a toy hauler, units that had bunks we could convert etc. and finally came up with a plan that we think will work best for us and our situation. We're not necessarily great at making the rennovations that would be needed, but we know people who can help and we're not afraid to ask for help and advice. We found that by being willing to consider some rennovations that our options were greatly expanded and didn't have to custom order a 125K new trailer.
We then ordered a For F450 to be built to our specs because we couldn't find one without leather (we travel with a cat) with everything else we wanted. In total between the truck and the trailer we fit within the budget you've set up for yourself.
Lots of options out there, and lots of people who can help make rennovations if you need them.
P.S. I still have a Trailer Saver TS 3 air ride hitch for sale. 931-589-3390.
Hi Cheryl,
I don't get on this forum much but a little birdie sent me here to check out your forum thread. You're going for a really nice rig. Since it does have 23,000 GVWR, you'll definitely need a truck that has no less than a GCWR of 33,000 pounds. I know of only one pickup truck available that meets that requirement. That is the: 2013 Ford F-450, 6.7L Power Stroke Turbo Diesel V8, Axle Ratio 4.3:1, DRW 4X4, with towing package.
Other than that, you’ll need an MDT or some other custom built truck. Personally, if I were in the market for a DRV, I’d go for a MDT with a long wheel base so that I could carry my smart ForTwo car behind the cab. Currently I carry my smart in my toy hauler’s garage.
Hope you find what you need. Remember, get a truck no less than GVWR of 33,000 pounds.
-- Edited by Cyclone Dave on Thursday 28th of February 2013 11:50:24 PM
The Trailer Saver TS that I have for sale, as Les stated can also have the Gooseneck ball mounted in place of the Hensley 5th wheel head, I also have the TS for sale and whom ever buys will get the Gooseneck ball mount also. Happy Trails... ...