bottom line--in your opinion what is the best built rig out there?
suse1023 said
04:07 PM Feb 8, 2013
we're open to all suggestions, and as we research the mazillions of options we keep coming down to this one basic question.
which brands should we focus on?
i do know from reading and remembering my parents' experience that most go though a few rig configurations before finding their ideal for full timing.
i'm a somewhat experienced camper and the past few years have camped quite a bit out of my horse trailer with my riding buddies.
it was pretty primitive but i loved it. all i did was sweep and clean out the horse space and set up my twin size hospital mattress on a few bales of hay, hang moosquito netting all around that and a few hay bales tables and i as good to go.
we're looking for sheer luxury compared to that now!
we agree that we want the heavy built with more insulation and bigger tanks etc for over the road and full timing, hopefully some boondocking too.
we already have a 25' tt and a 4x4 diesel dually one ton ford--a 2001 F350 7.3 with under 50k miles on it. it's basically brand new and is in 'as new' condition.
the tt is a 98 hornet with barely any use. in fact i'm worried about the plumbing which has never been used, but we'll cross that bridge when we set it up at camp in may. the camp closes october first and we assume we'll want something bigger for living in by then, and if it turns out i already have plenty of truck all the better.
but if we find something which needs more truck, then i'll upgrade at that time.
whew, so much to do!
JayKim-no regrets said
06:09 PM Feb 8, 2013
Hey Suze:)
We don't have a 5er, so not too much help on that from us, but there are so many research sites online, sites written by people that are 'in the know', there are also sites that do reviews on all types of RVs, maybe do a search in the (blue) strip at the top of the page. I spent a full 4 months online, researching all the different makes/models of Diesel pushers, I filled so many notepads, asked so many questions, visited so many dealers etc, I'm sure I could write a book!!
To be honest though, after all the research is done and you have your list down to just a few, you just have to go and spend some time in them, don't let dealers rush you into a decision, try imagining what your day to day routine will be in your new home, go through the motions and see how you 'feel', in the end, only you can say which is the best rig for you:)
Good luck and have fun! huggs kim x
Raytronx said
06:27 PM Feb 8, 2013
You might add a qualifier of price range. Usually a 100,000 dollar rig is better built than a 30,000 dollar one but is that what your looking to spend.
suse1023 said
07:11 PM Feb 8, 2013
oh those are very good points, thank you. i'm reading everything i can get my hands on, believe me when i say i'm a bit of an obsessive researcher! so much so that dh relies on me to get him to the 'you have three choices' stage,lol. as for budget i think we'll be comfortable at the 30 k range if my truck is big enough. if i have to trade up to a bigger hauler we'd be thinking more about a class a i suspect. so as for now i am looking for the best built 5th wheel my 4x4 dually one ton can comfortably handle. thanks so much for your thoughts, i learn best from others!
Lucky Mike said
07:43 PM Feb 8, 2013
The best built Rig out there will be the one you Decide has all the it Factors and you decide to call home!!!!
The Bear II said
08:13 PM Feb 8, 2013
Lucky Mike is right.....
Our first TT was chosen strictly due to functionality and looks. We did absolutely no research and just went with our guts.
She liked the inside (so did I) and I liked the outside for the storage, the way the dump valves were setup and it rode higher than other TT so no worries for dragging the rear.
As it turned out it was considered a mid-level brand. We had the TT for 16 years and only had one build quality issue. One of the booth seats in the dinnette broke apart. It had been glued and stapled in manufacturing at the factory and gave way after 10 years. I re-glued it and used screws, no more problem.
Now we have a 5th wheel and we looked around for a year. Again we chose a mid-level brand (on purpose this time). We chose the 5th wheel based upon functionality, looks and reputation of the manufacturer. It had features of the high end units, but not the solid wood cabinets and leather. The price was 10K to 20K less than the high end units. We got more for our money.
It's now 18 years later and we still have a great 5th wheel. For the most part we have used it at least once per month for short trips and one long trip every two years.
The only problems we have had are due to wear and tear. I do preventative maintenance on the truck and 5th wheel and feel that goes a long way towards stopping unexpected problems from occurring.
I didn't mean for this to be a long reply but the moral is you need to be happy with it and as long as you maintain it you will get many years of use.
Lynn and Ed said
08:53 PM Feb 8, 2013
If your desire is to look for the best for your needs, I would suggest purchasing a subscription to RV Consumer Group (http://www.rv.org). I know when we started our research, I looked at various websites, read almost everything on RV-Dreams, etc. and I thought my head might explode due to all the RV brands and non-comparable information available ... ok maybe not that extreme, but there were so many "opinions" based upon people's personal needs/situations as well as so much RV manufacturer website hype versus facts, which just did not allow for a true comparison ... in my opinion. What I/we determined, for our needs was New Horizons was a good match...which is RV Consumer Groups highest rated 5th wheel...this was further affirmed by looking at Jack's website and his related RV-Dreams postings as well as seeing a couple New Horizon Majestics in-person. RV Consumer Group provides reviews that would help anyone looking at RV/motorhomes at various price points, to help them make an informed comparison ... then continue their research. At least, that is the approach I/we found useful ... my first pass at a short list (after we started reading the RV-Dreams Journal) was somewhat laughable ... when I looked at some of the rating differences of the various RVs on our list compared to the RV Consumer Group rating guide.
Once you have a short list, beyond looking at some of the actual RVs (e.g., layout, quality, etc.), if you have the opportunity to speak with current owners -- to gain their insights about their specific experiences, lessons learned, etc. -- that can also be invaluable (and you ideally also make some new friends ).
-- Edited by Lyn on Saturday 9th of February 2013 03:58:19 PM
Jack Mayer said
11:31 PM Feb 8, 2013
The best rig is not an absolute. It really is the best rig for YOU.
But if you want to see a good "benchmark" for a quality 5er take a look at my website in the New Horizons section and look at what we have done with a couple of custom 5ers. These units are CUSTOM built to your requirements. So you can have it YOUR way. They are not the cheapest or the lightest units on the market. But they are well made and have many amenities in them. Take a look and if you have questions contact us directly or post here.
MarkS said
05:54 AM Feb 9, 2013
Boy oh boy! If that isn't a loaded question. I am wrestling with that one all the time. Do I want a high end with a mortgage payment or do I want two year old mid-range that is paid for? Am I going to be happy with 2" walls and if I spend the big bucks will I be happy with the performance of the 3.25" walls? Weight is no object for me since I own a class 8. I sat in one a while back that I liked but as I looked around there was no place to put the coffee pot where it wouldn't be in the way. What will I find in my selection that will be unsatisfactory or worse yet maddening? Unless you spend a ton of money you can't get everything, even then short of total custom all the floor plans have some weakness. None of them utilize space like a boat where every possible square inch is used the wisest way to maximize storage and utility. Once I begin living in it how will my habits change that will affect my satisfaction with my preconceived ideas of the things I need? Do I need a really heavy frame and 8000 pound axles or will I move around very little?
At some point you will decide all these things for yourself. You'll prioritize and put more weight in your decision for those items that are important to you. Bottom line: pull down your pants and slide on the ice.
Maybe the correct question is, what models do I avoid? Once those are eliminated your short list will be quality houses.
NorCal Dan said
11:42 PM Feb 13, 2013
Another thing to consider...we love our Monaco, it has been almost trouble free since we purchased it new. But I would have a hard time recommending Monaco now as it is a different company today. I think your best bet is to inspect (with a fine tooth comb) any unit that interests you and then make a decision. Past performance is not always a good indicator.
ew9266 said
03:44 PM Feb 15, 2013
I have read through all the responces and there is good advice. My wife and I purchased a used class C that we knew was not our unit we would want to live in for many years to come but it got us out into the community amoung the people we knew had years of experience. Besides we worked for several months to get the price on the class C down to where we could recoup our money once we decided on what we really wanted. We camped for a year talking to everyone we could and listening to all of there complaints and praises of their units. Taking detailed notes and attending many RV shows helped us kind of develop a short list of what we felt was important to us. Price did play a role as to what level of quality and detail we could afford. We then started studing floor plans and using our notes to find one that fit most of our requirements. Once we got the best floor plan, then we decided if gas was what we wanted or did we need and want a diesel. Again cost. maintenance, usage and resale played a role in determing which power plant we would go with.
We ended up with a mid range unit that fit 90% of our short list, a used 2008 Itasca Suncruiser 38T, on a Ford chassis, with a 6.8 trition V10 power plant. I do most of the maintenance my self so the 6.8 allows me to comfortablely deal with most issues. We wanted a washer & dryer since we hate, hate, hate, laundry mats. We wanted a front kitchen and a mid rig living room with seating to allow TV viewing and discussion with guest in a comfortable setting. We wanted leather furniture for durability and easy cleaning. Full paint rather than stickers for looks and durability. Large slides that allowed for expansion yet living space when closed and yes you will find your self living in the unit when closed. I could go on and on but make sure you really discuss all of these issues with who ever you are sharing the space because if your all not excited and happy with what you purchase you will be back at it again before you should. I've been told you will purchase at least three units before you find the one you really like.
We have been full time for three years we few regrets. Few desired up grades. Few major issues. We went two years trouble free. Like anything you will have problems with our S&B we had issues and problems, you fix them and keep on going. Be financially ready this will help with the frustration and friction caused by repairs and fuel. Live within your means, you will meet all kinds when your on the road some with more and some with less than you have. Respect both and impress none, live your own life within your budget. Carry as little debt as you can. Have fun.
SnowGypsy said
07:54 PM Feb 15, 2013
I would have to agree with Jack Mayer about the New Horizons. I worked in the office there during the 90's and learned a lot and had the chance to talk with a lot of people/couples. Just this fall, I talked with a gentleman that bought his new 7 years ago and had not one complaint. Yes, they are expensive and they are heavy. The founder, Harold Johnson, was an engineer and had started the company in order to entice his sons to move back from CA. They all worked in various jobs there. Harold used to get on the roof and jump up and down, which was amusing from the office window, to show how sturdy the roof was. I can tell you we have owned entry level trailers and the whole time you are on the roof, you are stepping carefully and praying that you'll be going back down the ladder and not through the roof. I would not discount used models in a top brand. For years, we have bought older high end vehicles and would never do anything else. Most RVs are lightly used and if they aren't, you can tell pretty quick once you give it the once over. Although Harold sold the company around 2000 or so (and sadly passed away a few years ago), I have heard nothing but good remarks about the new owners. I'm wondering if you have any idea how long you'll be full-timing and what size of trailer are you thinking about? New Horizons also builds travel trailers and I saw a used one on the internet sometime recently, which I would love to have. It was around 27 feet, I think. I am guessing in the $30,000 range, you might get 5 to 7 years of heavy use out of a trailer. Some people like the Nu-Wa and their website is a good place to look at what they have available to compare new and used of their trailer and others they have taken in trade. OK, so both places I have mentioned are in KS, like me but seriously, wages are lower here which helps in the final cost of the product. Good luck with your choice!
Terry and Jo said
04:52 AM Feb 16, 2013
SnowGypsy,
Just out of curiosity, I had heard that Nu-Wa was considering closing down. Do you happen to know for sure if they are still in business?
Terry
SnowGypsy said
04:28 PM Feb 16, 2013
The Nu Wa website is still operating. I had not heard anything about a possible closing although, as you know, several manufacturers have folded due to the economy and competition. I had noticed they were keeping a rather large inventory of both new and used, sort of getting into the business of being an rv dealer. They tend to carry higher end used trailers in their inventory so I enjoy "dreaming" my way through the list of photos.
Also, Peterson Excel is a great unit and have started making a travel trailer just this last year. I have seen the units from the outside and they and the New Horizons seem to look more sturdy, tank sturdy!
We have had 8 RVs over the years but never anything considered top of the line. We stay with smaller units so that limits our selection. New Horizons, in the 90's, made a small trailer called "The Vanmate" which was nice and I am wondering if they might still do that for someone again. Anyone looking at smaller travel trailers and wants/needs them customized, look at Taylor Coach in Canada as they have website and several youtube videos.
Jack Mayer said
08:43 PM Feb 16, 2013
Hitchhiker no longer manufactures new units. They are in the sales and service business still. And they will honor the warranty on their units. But no new ones are being built. Unless that changed in the last week.
The Excel Travel Trailer is quite nice and well built. New Horizons makes a nice travel trailer, but it is considerably heavier than the Excel.
The products New Horizons produces now are totally different than what SnowGypsy saw when she worked there. They are just as sturdy, though - which is why they are heavy.
SnowGypsy said
09:30 PM Feb 16, 2013
Thanks, Jack. I did go back to the Nu-Wa website and found an article that said they stopped producing new units this month. I don't think it is a great loss to the industry. I do wonder what makes the New Horizons totally different though. Oh well, if I were to get a used unit, it would be one that the previous owner was involved with. I saw the youtube video on the new owners and facility and it seemed that this new family was a lot like the Johnson family when it comes to integrity, etc. The units used to be more plain and basic and I know that a lot of people were turned off by that and that the new owner "updated" the look/style/etc. Anyone looking for New Horizons, it is a buyer's market right now and the prices for what you get used are a steal compared to new.
Jack Mayer said
09:57 PM Feb 16, 2013
On the differences in the New Horizon: The frame is different (heavier and more reinforcement), the walls have been updated to a better foam, the lamination uses a better glue, the exterior panel in the lamination is gelcoat instead of Filon, the interior panels are Azdel so the wall structure is totally changed - although built in the same lamination fashion. Roof is 4" of Blue Dow corning foam. Slide mechanism is totally different. Flush floor slides, where appropriate, and a hydraulic mechanism instead of chain drive electric. Interior is totally revamped with new decor and materials. Cabinets are much improved. Best in class, IMO.
SnowGypsy said
10:26 PM Feb 18, 2013
Well, looks like I am safe in still recommending the New Horizons. There are so many manufacturers out there and some are good and some aren't and people don't agree but if you look at the materials being used to build with, look past the "glitter", get recommendations from people who have owned for a few years and another winner is going out to dealerships and looking at the used units even if you aren't interested in a used one just to see how they hold up and you'll see units obviously abused and other's taken good care of but the lemons will stand out as things will bag, sag, be water stained, cabinetry mended together, etc.
rvingft said
03:11 AM Feb 19, 2013
There is 1 fifth-wheel that the independent rating organization called RV.org rates as 5-star - all the brands's models ... that is New Horizons.
There are no other brands (and I have the database for models from 2011 to 2000) that is rated 5-star across the board of all models.
You can't go wrong with a New Horizons brand ...
kb0zke said
04:20 AM Feb 19, 2013
We asked this same question a couple of years ago when we were starting our research. We knew that we could not buy a new coach, so we were looking for a high quality one that would stand up over the years. The same brands were mentioned over and over, which helped us. For travel trailers, Airstream, Arctic Fox, and Excel were mentioned most often. For 5'ers, DRV, New Horizons, and Nu-Wa were the top three. For DP coaches, Bluebird, Foretravel, and Newell were at the top. Other brands that were mentioned as lower initial price (but would let us buy a newer coach for the same money) were Heartland (5'ers), Newmar, Tiffin, and Winnebago (DP).
I'd suggest that you look at each brand in the class that you are considering as well as your intended use. PPL can serve as a good price guide, since they have a fairly quick turnover. Get a rough budget in mind, keeping several thousand dollars (some suggest $10,000) back for repairs and upgrades. It won't take you long to get a pretty good handle on what coaches are worth, and you can then spot those that are over priced and be careful of those that are priced low.
One caveat: once in a great while someone wishes to pass on their pride and joy to someone who is wanting to own that particular brand, and is willing to sell it for less than market value just to help someone out. You will only find out about those on the brand-specific forums. Join those that are of interest to you, and ask your questions. Don't be put off by all the discussions of problems. In fact, that is generally a good thing UNLESS it is general griping at poor factory quality. Owners who are actively involved in the care and upkeep of their coaches generally are more satisfied than those whose only took is a piece of plastic.
Terry and Jo said
06:44 AM Feb 19, 2013
First of all, don't let my following comment be construed as a disagreement with Candace and Terry, but with ANY organization that does ratings, also do your own research into each RV or company that you consider. I will agree that the New Horizons RV's are excellent choices, so this is not a "dig" at that company either.
Over the years, being involved with management with businesses, I've learned that many of the rating organizations all need to be taken with a grain of salt. That includes such "venerable" organizations such as the Better Business Bureau and Consumer Reports. While I have no experience with RV.org, I have studied and learned about the BBB and Consumer Reports.
So, when looking at any RV, look carefully at every aspect, not just the "appearances" of them. Especially look at the very foundation of the RV, to include the frame, suspension, and axles and wheels, as well as tires.
Terry
MarkS said
08:46 AM Feb 20, 2013
Something is being overlooked here. Budget. I doubt that anyone would disagree that NH or DRV make the classiest digs out there but, not everyone can afford or see the sense in spending over $100K for a trailer. My BMW is better engineered than a Chevy but the Chevy will get you from point A to point B in fine style and comfort. They both need maintenance, they both break down occasionally. The real question one must ask is, do I need the glitz and status of a top of the line coach or would I be happier saving several thousand clams that could be spent elsewhere. Both are heavier which means you must also spend more on a tow vehicle. All of them are wooden boxes that integrate other manufacturers shortcomings. None of them integrate true innovation that makes one a stand alone winner in the engineering category. None of them are junk.
Basically, it comes down to desire and budget. My point is that there are more than two manufacturers of quality trailers. However, there may only be two who's reputation allow them to command outrageous margins.
-- Edited by MarkS on Wednesday 20th of February 2013 08:47:09 AM
bjoyce said
09:14 AM Feb 20, 2013
Mark: I don't think they are getting "outrageous margins" since they are spending more money on the construction. Does a Volvo truck have higher margins than a Ford? No one here is getting a 5th wheel like Will Smith's - http://www.businessinsider.com/will-smith-trailer-2011-5?op=1.
-- Edited by bjoyce on Wednesday 20th of February 2013 09:20:00 AM
SnowGypsy said
03:10 PM Feb 20, 2013
Excellent advice on the rating organizations. Again, my experience may be a little outdated but I was working at New Horizons when the representative came through the plant and did the intial rating of New Horizons. New Horizons was and probably still is an excellent product and customer service was excellent but, I did not think much of the rating organization and, also, I was able to review their publications and ratings more than once over the years and I do not necessarily agree having had experience and having seen some of the products that they rated. Not all facilities were giving them the full access that they wanted and I am guessing that is probably still the situation. I would not depend on their rating system as a stand alone decision maker. It is always a good idea to do your own leg work when you can.
bigboomer said
04:52 PM Feb 20, 2013
Well said Mark.
Jack Mayer said
07:40 PM Feb 20, 2013
I would question one discussing margins without having knowledge of the manufactures margins they are quoting. I KNOW what the margins are on some of the manufacturers. I don't consider them outrageous. While some may be - none of the ones I have personal knowledge of are outrageous IMO.
I do consider it a valid point on total cost, though. Only the buyer can decide if the features and structure of the coach they are buying is worth the money. Structure is an important consideration if you are looking for a rig for long term use. As I've said in the past, any manufacturer can add glitz pretty easily. Simply walk around an RV show and look at units selling in the 50-60K range and you will see lots of glitz. Have you ever wondered how they do that? They cut on the structure. No iff's and's or but's about it. There is NO magic formula. If you put in glitz and maintain a low (relative) price they you have to cut from someplace.
Not everyone is going to pay for the additional structure (and weight) of a DRV, a Spacecraft, a Continental Coach or a New Horizons. But if you look at what is in each of these I think you would find a LARGE difference in structure (and running gear) as compared to lower line coaches. But that does not necessarily make them more suitable for any specific individual - only the buyer can make the tradeoffs on price/performance.
MarkS said
08:33 PM Feb 20, 2013
bjoyce wrote:
Mark: I don't think they are getting "outrageous margins" since they are spending more money on the construction.
-- Edited by bjoyce on Wednesday 20th of February 2013 09:20:00 AM
(For clarity I am only talking about fifth wheel trailers in this post. We have a varied audience on this forum with different levels of resources available.) I might have used "outrageous" a little too freely. It takes profit to stay in business. Custom, even if only partial custom, costs more than assembly line. This is a given, and to be fair to the manufacturers, they will price their products at what the market will bear. That is capitalism. I work for a manufacturer of plastic products. We charge 60% margins on some products. Is it highway robbery? I guess it depends on your point of view.
On this forum we often say, "each of us must choose our RV based on our needs and desires" Keeping that in mind, I am trying to clarify two points:
- High dollar does not equate to satisfaction. But, spending more than you can afford will certainly contribute to buyers remorse. This is particularly true if you are buying a coach on a limited budget. You are certainly able to acquire a quality coach that will last for years without spending your great-grand childrens inheritance.
The bad news is there is no simple way to compare two manufacturers apples-to-apples. Some depend on "standard" packages some list options, some basic prices already have stuff in them while another manufacturer's base price doesn't include windows and wheels. All of them list an MSRP and sell for a deeply discounted price. Every penny above the discounted price is additional margin. I just received a quote on a Landmark that is $40K under MSRP on a new build. That puts their margin on MSRP at about 85%. That's criminal, not that anybody pays MSRP. None of the manufacturers are much different. I am creating a comparison table to try and simplify the research.
- My second point is, as you research your choices remember, none of the coaches currently on the market present any ground-breaking state of the art technology or engineering that would drive the price up. The basic construction is similar, insulation is comparable, the HVAC is all the same technology, entertainment is all the same, roofs are rubber or fiberglass, chassis vary slightly. None of them gaurantee comfort in an Alaskan winter or an Arizona summer. The only shift in technology that I can honestly say will make a difference in your battery life is the introduction of LED lights on some models.
So that's my opinion. Some are plusher, some are more practical. But they all beat mowing a lawn on a hot summer day.
Lucky Mike said
09:56 PM Feb 20, 2013
Well spoken Mark, I believe the same .........Kinda goes with the advertisement about being Branded.......The brand is just a name...
Maytag has been out of business for over 15 yrs....the name is owned by whirlpool
You can Spend big bucks on a Bosche......But LG is the same product
You Can compare your chevy to my GMC.......
Its all whats in your budget........New or used.....it is all for the same purpose
Life is based on Fact or fiction........but opinions will be spelled differently in every language, and should only be reserved for attorneys and politicians !!!
Terry and Jo said
11:21 PM Feb 20, 2013
First of all, this first comment is not necessarily associated with the products within the RV industry.
I used to work as a manager for a major national retail electronics company that sold both finished products and parts. I can assure you that the parts aspect of the business is what brought in the largest margin with regards to percentage. A brand new VCR (yes, I'm aging myself here) had a profit margin of about 8 to 10 percent, sometimes as much as 15 percent. At the same time, many of the parts items had a profit margin of more than 100%. One just never complains about a part that cost $10 as much as they do paying $300 for the full product, ready to plug in and use.
My father-in-law (a farmer and rancher) used to complain that the agribusiness industry, specifically tractor and implement dealers, were "making a killing" off of the farmer. I had the pleasure of being friends with one of the guys that worked in the business. His experience was the same as mine in the electronics industry. The margin percentage was lower on tractors and implements than it was on parts. Plus, the real killer was in labor for repairs to the equipment. With many, if not most, rv dealerships charging $100 or more for labor, I think we all can see the truth in that.
Now, I can't speak for every RV manufacturer, but what I've seen does indicate that some manufacturers do scrimp on some of the things that a lot of folks don't look at. The "fluff" tends to make a lot of buyers (not all, mind you) really like one brand and don't even notice that underlying structural parts aren't up to snuff. While it is anecdotal, I've certainly heard from a number of folks who bought one brand and then later discovered their error in not doing more looking and research.
Without knowing what all the costs are for all the components of the construction and appliances for an RV, plus overhead and labor, it is hard for me to say that all the manufacturers are "making a killing" off of their buyers. And, lets face it, all companies are in business to make a profit, even in light of the need to repair things after the purchase that are under warranty.
To me, MSRP is simply a ruler by which one can get an idea of what the quality of the coach ought to be. I can say that with our 2010 Mobile Suites with some custom upgrades ended up being a fair bit less than $100,000, even though the MSRP would have been $125,000. To me, the MS is our home for some time to come, even if we aren't traveling yet. To us, the quality of the DRV products "fit" into what we were willing to pay. We would have loved to have a New Horizons, but that price was completely out of range for us.
Terry
SnowGypsy said
09:32 PM Feb 21, 2013
Don't forget to look carefully at the trailer's carrying capacity. I don't think that most manufacturers weigh all units but use an average. Want big tanks? Maybe 50 gallons? When that tank if full, you are carrying 8 x 50 = 400 extra pounds. Also, most manufacturers don't add in the weight of "options" and you'll be surprised what some consider an "option". There are charts that talk about the weights of items like water, propane, awning, A/C, etc. Use them. When I worked at Horizons, someone called in that was stranded on the highway with another brand of unit and they desperately needed help because their black water tank, full to the brim, had come loose to the point they could not move from where they were. They had been dragging it hoping to reach the free dump station and they almost made it and in this case, almost doesn't count. Two techs were sent out and I don't know what the hourly wage was but on that day, it could not possibly have been even close to enough.
Terry and Jo said
11:45 PM Feb 21, 2013
Now, I might be wrong on this, but I was under the impression that the manufacturer of an RV weighs each unit after it has been built. I know that they did with the Mobile Suites that we have. With all the paperwork and manuals we got, there was also a sheet listing that weight and showing the difference between the empty weight and the GVWR, thus giving us our cargo carrying capacity.
Terry
bjoyce said
02:15 AM Feb 22, 2013
No, many manufacturers do not weigh each RV and put an estimate or average on the sticker. Our Newmar Dutchstar was also individually weighed by the manufacturer, but most other brands we checked were not.
Terry and Jo said
02:45 AM Feb 22, 2013
Thanks, Bill.
I wasn't sure as the only one I remember being that way was our DRV. I couldn't remember for sure with regards to the 26' TT and then the 26' fifth wheel we had before as to whether we got a sheet with weights.
My bad.
Terry
rvingft said
01:05 PM Feb 22, 2013
New Horizons ... as per the RV.org rating organization ... there are no other 5-star RV manufacturers around that has a 5-star rating on every model they build.
New Horizons is in a class by itself ... that said, there are many "fans" of many other brands, either by personal experience or heresay. You will hear good & bad on all brands, but mostly all positive about New Horizons ... they really ARE that much better.
Jack Mayer said
01:40 AM Feb 28, 2013
rvingft wrote:
New Horizons ... as per the RV.org rating organization ... there are no other 5-star RV manufacturers around that has a 5-star rating on every model they build.
New Horizons is in a class by itself ... that said, there are many "fans" of many other brands, either by personal experience or heresay. You will hear good & bad on all brands, but mostly all positive about New Horizons ... they really ARE that much better.
New Horizons makes a VERY nice coach. And it is especially nice since YOU get to help with the design. They are very nice units. We've owned two and I've been intimately involved in the design of dozens. Plus I've worked in the factory on the "line". So I think I have a fair understanding of them. They are very well made. But like ALL RVs they are not perfect. Even with a New Horizons you "could" have some issues. The key is how the manufacturer responds to the issue. In the case of NH I can assure you they will do whatever it takes to get it fixed.
SnowGypsy said
09:26 PM Feb 28, 2013
One of the most helpful things that I read, and I can't remember where, was to look at the "fit and finish" and this applied to units in all price categories which I was thankful to find. Basically, were things (cupboards, shelves, hardware, etc.) properly placed and aligned since this speaks to quality control. Obviously, the materials used in a $35,000 trailer are not going to be like those in a $70,000 model but that is no reason that quality of workmanship should be poor. Also, keep in mind that manufacturers that produce a lot of units can get better prices on the parts, appliances, etc. because they buy in a larger quantity so there is a savings there and also, the advertising expense, which can be very high, is spread a little further out so you don't end up with a $1,000 of the price of your unit having went toward advertisements. I actually think it was a little book that Escapees sold about selecting an RV that had the best information, basic information that anyone could understand.
bjoyce said
02:02 AM Mar 1, 2013
The only book I have seen is put out by RV.org - How to Select, Inspect, and Buy an RV, which is included with their membership package. It is a very useful book.
SnowGypsy said
02:28 PM Mar 1, 2013
I checked and the book I am talking about is no longer available. It was by the couple that started Escapees, I believe. It has been probably at least 10 years since I had my copy.
On another note, when going through my RV Buyer's Guide, I noticed that New Horizons chassis was listed as aluminum and was surprised by that since when I had worked there, the big selling point was the steel chassis that they were making in the shop. It was, while Mr. Johnson ran it, a small shop and each unit was worked on as an individual unit rather than assembly line. They were only producing about 2 units per month at that time.
Jack Mayer said
07:06 AM Mar 2, 2013
The New Horizons frame is steel. There is an option on coaches under 39' to have an aluminum frame - which saves about 2K lbs of weight on the 39' coach. This is an extra cost option. It is not available for longer coaches.
In both cases the wall framing is aluminum, not steel.
SnowGypsy said
08:03 PM Mar 2, 2013
Jack: Thank you for clarifying my confusion about the chassis. In the specs on the New Horizons website, it just says that the chassis is manufactured at New Horizons.
Jack Mayer said
09:43 PM Mar 2, 2013
New Horizons custom engineers and builds all of their steel frames in house. Each frame is engineered specifically for the coach being built, and is modified as appropriate for the intended purpose of the coach. For example, a coach carrying a heavy motorcycle on the back "may" have the axle position adjusted for the weight. Or, if you add space to the upper deck (larger bedroom or bath), that will be designed in as required.
Aluminum frames are engineered in-house but actually built at a specialty frame manufacturer (not Lippert) to the New Horizons specifications. This is because aluminum requires special manufacturing/construction techniques and New Horizons has not (to date) built enough of them to justify the in-house investment in the technology.
The rest of the RV is all built in-house on what I would call a semi-production line. There are multiple stations and the coach is moved between them as things progress. New Horizons builds around 32-35 coaches per year (more or less) so you can see that a real "production line" is not required.
we're open to all suggestions, and as we research the mazillions of options we keep coming down to this one basic question.
which brands should we focus on?
i do know from reading and remembering my parents' experience that most go though a few rig configurations before finding their ideal for full timing.
i'm a somewhat experienced camper and the past few years have camped quite a bit out of my horse trailer with my riding buddies.
it was pretty primitive but i loved it. all i did was sweep and clean out the horse space and set up my twin size hospital mattress on a few bales of hay, hang moosquito netting all around that and a few hay bales tables and i as good to go.
we're looking for sheer luxury compared to that now!
we agree that we want the heavy built with more insulation and bigger tanks etc for over the road and full timing, hopefully some boondocking too.
we already have a 25' tt and a 4x4 diesel dually one ton ford--a 2001 F350 7.3 with under 50k miles on it. it's basically brand new and is in 'as new' condition.
the tt is a 98 hornet with barely any use. in fact i'm worried about the plumbing which has never been used, but we'll cross that bridge when we set it up at camp in may. the camp closes october first and we assume we'll want something bigger for living in by then, and if it turns out i already have plenty of truck all the better.
but if we find something which needs more truck, then i'll upgrade at that time.
whew, so much to do!
We don't have a 5er, so not too much help on that from us, but there are so many research sites online, sites written by people that are 'in the know', there are also sites that do reviews on all types of RVs, maybe do a search in the (blue) strip at the top of the page. I spent a full 4 months online, researching all the different makes/models of Diesel pushers, I filled so many notepads, asked so many questions, visited so many dealers etc, I'm sure I could write a book!!
To be honest though, after all the research is done and you have your list down to just a few, you just have to go and spend some time in them, don't let dealers rush you into a decision, try imagining what your day to day routine will be in your new home, go through the motions and see how you 'feel', in the end, only you can say which is the best rig for you:)
Good luck and have fun!
huggs kim x
as for budget i think we'll be comfortable at the 30 k range if my truck is big enough. if i have to trade up to a bigger hauler we'd be thinking more about a class a i suspect.
so as for now i am looking for the best built 5th wheel my 4x4 dually one ton can comfortably handle.
thanks so much for your thoughts, i learn best from others!
Our first TT was chosen strictly due to functionality and looks. We did absolutely no research and just went with our guts.
She liked the inside (so did I) and I liked the outside for the storage, the way the dump valves were setup and it rode higher than other TT so no worries for dragging the rear.
As it turned out it was considered a mid-level brand. We had the TT for 16 years and only had one build quality issue. One of the booth seats in the dinnette broke apart. It had been glued and stapled in manufacturing at the factory and gave way after 10 years. I re-glued it and used screws, no more problem.
Now we have a 5th wheel and we looked around for a year. Again we chose a mid-level brand (on purpose this time). We chose the 5th wheel based upon functionality, looks and reputation of the manufacturer. It had features of the high end units, but not the solid wood cabinets and leather. The price was 10K to 20K less than the high end units. We got more for our money.
It's now 18 years later and we still have a great 5th wheel. For the most part we have used it at least once per month for short trips and one long trip every two years.
The only problems we have had are due to wear and tear. I do preventative maintenance on the truck and 5th wheel and feel that goes a long way towards stopping unexpected problems from occurring.
I didn't mean for this to be a long reply but the moral is you need to be happy with it and as long as you maintain it you will get many years of use.
If your desire is to look for the best for your needs, I would suggest purchasing a subscription to RV Consumer Group (http://www.rv.org). I know when we started our research, I looked at various websites, read almost everything on RV-Dreams, etc. and I thought my head might explode due to all the RV brands and non-comparable information available ... ok maybe not that extreme, but there were so many "opinions" based upon people's personal needs/situations as well as so much RV manufacturer website hype versus facts, which just did not allow for a true comparison ... in my opinion. What I/we determined, for our needs was New Horizons was a good match...which is RV Consumer Groups highest rated 5th wheel...this was further affirmed by looking at Jack's website and his related RV-Dreams postings as well as seeing a couple New Horizon Majestics in-person. RV Consumer Group provides reviews that would help anyone looking at RV/motorhomes at various price points, to help them make an informed comparison ... then continue their research. At least, that is the approach I/we found useful ... my first pass at a short list (after we started reading the RV-Dreams Journal) was somewhat laughable ... when I looked at some of the rating differences of the various RVs on our list compared to the RV Consumer Group rating guide.
Once you have a short list, beyond looking at some of the actual RVs (e.g., layout, quality, etc.), if you have the opportunity to speak with current owners -- to gain their insights about their specific experiences, lessons learned, etc. -- that can also be invaluable (and you ideally also make some new friends
).
-- Edited by Lyn on Saturday 9th of February 2013 03:58:19 PM
The best rig is not an absolute. It really is the best rig for YOU.
But if you want to see a good "benchmark" for a quality 5er take a look at my website in the New Horizons section and look at what we have done with a couple of custom 5ers. These units are CUSTOM built to your requirements. So you can have it YOUR way. They are not the cheapest or the lightest units on the market. But they are well made and have many amenities in them. Take a look and if you have questions contact us directly or post here.
At some point you will decide all these things for yourself. You'll prioritize and put more weight in your decision for those items that are important to you. Bottom line: pull down your pants and slide on the ice.
Maybe the correct question is, what models do I avoid? Once those are eliminated your short list will be quality houses.
I have read through all the responces and there is good advice. My wife and I purchased a used class C that we knew was not our unit we would want to live in for many years to come but it got us out into the community amoung the people we knew had years of experience. Besides we worked for several months to get the price on the class C down to where we could recoup our money once we decided on what we really wanted. We camped for a year talking to everyone we could and listening to all of there complaints and praises of their units. Taking detailed notes and attending many RV shows helped us kind of develop a short list of what we felt was important to us. Price did play a role as to what level of quality and detail we could afford. We then started studing floor plans and using our notes to find one that fit most of our requirements. Once we got the best floor plan, then we decided if gas was what we wanted or did we need and want a diesel. Again cost. maintenance, usage and resale played a role in determing which power plant we would go with.
We ended up with a mid range unit that fit 90% of our short list, a used 2008 Itasca Suncruiser 38T, on a Ford chassis, with a 6.8 trition V10 power plant. I do most of the maintenance my self so the 6.8 allows me to comfortablely deal with most issues. We wanted a washer & dryer since we hate, hate, hate, laundry mats. We wanted a front kitchen and a mid rig living room with seating to allow TV viewing and discussion with guest in a comfortable setting. We wanted leather furniture for durability and easy cleaning. Full paint rather than stickers for looks and durability. Large slides that allowed for expansion yet living space when closed and yes you will find your self living in the unit when closed. I could go on and on but make sure you really discuss all of these issues with who ever you are sharing the space because if your all not excited and happy with what you purchase you will be back at it again before you should. I've been told you will purchase at least three units before you find the one you really like.
We have been full time for three years we few regrets. Few desired up grades. Few major issues. We went two years trouble free. Like anything you will have problems with our S&B we had issues and problems, you fix them and keep on going. Be financially ready this will help with the frustration and friction caused by repairs and fuel. Live within your means, you will meet all kinds when your on the road some with more and some with less than you have. Respect both and impress none, live your own life within your budget. Carry as little debt as you can. Have fun.
SnowGypsy,
Just out of curiosity, I had heard that Nu-Wa was considering closing down. Do you happen to know for sure if they are still in business?
Terry
The Nu Wa website is still operating. I had not heard anything about a possible closing although, as you know, several manufacturers have folded due to the economy and competition. I had noticed they were keeping a rather large inventory of both new and used, sort of getting into the business of being an rv dealer. They tend to carry higher end used trailers in their inventory so I enjoy "dreaming" my way through the list of photos.
Also, Peterson Excel is a great unit and have started making a travel trailer just this last year. I have seen the units from the outside and they and the New Horizons seem to look more sturdy, tank sturdy!
We have had 8 RVs over the years but never anything considered top of the line. We stay with smaller units so that limits our selection. New Horizons, in the 90's, made a small trailer called "The Vanmate" which was nice and I am wondering if they might still do that for someone again. Anyone looking at smaller travel trailers and wants/needs them customized, look at Taylor Coach in Canada as they have website and several youtube videos.
The Excel Travel Trailer is quite nice and well built. New Horizons makes a nice travel trailer, but it is considerably heavier than the Excel.
The products New Horizons produces now are totally different than what SnowGypsy saw when she worked there. They are just as sturdy, though - which is why they are heavy.
Well, looks like I am safe in still recommending the New Horizons. There are so many manufacturers out there and some are good and some aren't and people don't agree but if you look at the materials being used to build with, look past the "glitter", get recommendations from people who have owned for a few years and another winner is going out to dealerships and looking at the used units even if you aren't interested in a used one just to see how they hold up and you'll see units obviously abused and other's taken good care of but the lemons will stand out as things will bag, sag, be water stained, cabinetry mended together, etc.
There are no other brands (and I have the database for models from 2011 to 2000) that is rated 5-star across the board of all models.
You can't go wrong with a New Horizons brand ...
I'd suggest that you look at each brand in the class that you are considering as well as your intended use. PPL can serve as a good price guide, since they have a fairly quick turnover. Get a rough budget in mind, keeping several thousand dollars (some suggest $10,000) back for repairs and upgrades. It won't take you long to get a pretty good handle on what coaches are worth, and you can then spot those that are over priced and be careful of those that are priced low.
One caveat: once in a great while someone wishes to pass on their pride and joy to someone who is wanting to own that particular brand, and is willing to sell it for less than market value just to help someone out. You will only find out about those on the brand-specific forums. Join those that are of interest to you, and ask your questions. Don't be put off by all the discussions of problems. In fact, that is generally a good thing UNLESS it is general griping at poor factory quality. Owners who are actively involved in the care and upkeep of their coaches generally are more satisfied than those whose only took is a piece of plastic.
First of all, don't let my following comment be construed as a disagreement with Candace and Terry, but with ANY organization that does ratings, also do your own research into each RV or company that you consider. I will agree that the New Horizons RV's are excellent choices, so this is not a "dig" at that company either.
Over the years, being involved with management with businesses, I've learned that many of the rating organizations all need to be taken with a grain of salt. That includes such "venerable" organizations such as the Better Business Bureau and Consumer Reports. While I have no experience with RV.org, I have studied and learned about the BBB and Consumer Reports.
So, when looking at any RV, look carefully at every aspect, not just the "appearances" of them. Especially look at the very foundation of the RV, to include the frame, suspension, and axles and wheels, as well as tires.
Terry
Something is being overlooked here. Budget. I doubt that anyone would disagree that NH or DRV make the classiest digs out there but, not everyone can afford or see the sense in spending over $100K for a trailer. My BMW is better engineered than a Chevy but the Chevy will get you from point A to point B in fine style and comfort. They both need maintenance, they both break down occasionally. The real question one must ask is, do I need the glitz and status of a top of the line coach or would I be happier saving several thousand clams that could be spent elsewhere. Both are heavier which means you must also spend more on a tow vehicle. All of them are wooden boxes that integrate other manufacturers shortcomings. None of them integrate true innovation that makes one a stand alone winner in the engineering category. None of them are junk.
Basically, it comes down to desire and budget. My point is that there are more than two manufacturers of quality trailers. However, there may only be two who's reputation allow them to command outrageous margins.
-- Edited by MarkS on Wednesday 20th of February 2013 08:47:09 AM
Mark: I don't think they are getting "outrageous margins" since they are spending more money on the construction. Does a Volvo truck have higher margins than a Ford? No one here is getting a 5th wheel like Will Smith's - http://www.businessinsider.com/will-smith-trailer-2011-5?op=1.
Edit: In case I am wrong and there are those who can afford a $1.8M trailer, you can customize and buy one from http://www.andersonmobileestates.com/home.php.
-- Edited by bjoyce on Wednesday 20th of February 2013 09:20:00 AM
Excellent advice on the rating organizations. Again, my experience may be a little outdated but I was working at New Horizons when the representative came through the plant and did the intial rating of New Horizons. New Horizons was and probably still is an excellent product and customer service was excellent but, I did not think much of the rating organization and, also, I was able to review their publications and ratings more than once over the years and I do not necessarily agree having had experience and having seen some of the products that they rated. Not all facilities were giving them the full access that they wanted and I am guessing that is probably still the situation. I would not depend on their rating system as a stand alone decision maker. It is always a good idea to do your own leg work when you can.
Well said Mark.
I do consider it a valid point on total cost, though. Only the buyer can decide if the features and structure of the coach they are buying is worth the money. Structure is an important consideration if you are looking for a rig for long term use. As I've said in the past, any manufacturer can add glitz pretty easily. Simply walk around an RV show and look at units selling in the 50-60K range and you will see lots of glitz. Have you ever wondered how they do that? They cut on the structure. No iff's and's or but's about it. There is NO magic formula. If you put in glitz and maintain a low (relative) price they you have to cut from someplace.
Not everyone is going to pay for the additional structure (and weight) of a DRV, a Spacecraft, a Continental Coach or a New Horizons. But if you look at what is in each of these I think you would find a LARGE difference in structure (and running gear) as compared to lower line coaches. But that does not necessarily make them more suitable for any specific individual - only the buyer can make the tradeoffs on price/performance.
(For clarity I am only talking about fifth wheel trailers in this post. We have a varied audience on this forum with different levels of resources available.) I might have used "outrageous" a little too freely. It takes profit to stay in business. Custom, even if only partial custom, costs more than assembly line. This is a given, and to be fair to the manufacturers, they will price their products at what the market will bear. That is capitalism. I work for a manufacturer of plastic products. We charge 60% margins on some products. Is it highway robbery? I guess it depends on your point of view.
On this forum we often say, "each of us must choose our RV based on our needs and desires" Keeping that in mind, I am trying to clarify two points:
- High dollar does not equate to satisfaction. But, spending more than you can afford will certainly contribute to buyers remorse. This is particularly true if you are buying a coach on a limited budget. You are certainly able to acquire a quality coach that will last for years without spending your great-grand childrens inheritance.
The bad news is there is no simple way to compare two manufacturers apples-to-apples. Some depend on "standard" packages some list options, some basic prices already have stuff in them while another manufacturer's base price doesn't include windows and wheels. All of them list an MSRP and sell for a deeply discounted price. Every penny above the discounted price is additional margin. I just received a quote on a Landmark that is $40K under MSRP on a new build. That puts their margin on MSRP at about 85%. That's criminal, not that anybody pays MSRP. None of the manufacturers are much different. I am creating a comparison table to try and simplify the research.
- My second point is, as you research your choices remember, none of the coaches currently on the market present any ground-breaking state of the art technology or engineering that would drive the price up. The basic construction is similar, insulation is comparable, the HVAC is all the same technology, entertainment is all the same, roofs are rubber or fiberglass, chassis vary slightly. None of them gaurantee comfort in an Alaskan winter or an Arizona summer. The only shift in technology that I can honestly say will make a difference in your battery life is the introduction of LED lights on some models.
So that's my opinion. Some are plusher, some are more practical. But they all beat mowing a lawn on a hot summer day.
Maytag has been out of business for over 15 yrs....the name is owned by whirlpool
You can Spend big bucks on a Bosche......But LG is the same product
You Can compare your chevy to my GMC.......
Its all whats in your budget........New or used.....it is all for the same purpose
Life is based on Fact or fiction........but opinions will be spelled differently in every language, and should only be reserved for attorneys and politicians !!!
First of all, this first comment is not necessarily associated with the products within the RV industry.
I used to work as a manager for a major national retail electronics company that sold both finished products and parts. I can assure you that the parts aspect of the business is what brought in the largest margin with regards to percentage. A brand new VCR (yes, I'm aging myself here) had a profit margin of about 8 to 10 percent, sometimes as much as 15 percent. At the same time, many of the parts items had a profit margin of more than 100%. One just never complains about a part that cost $10 as much as they do paying $300 for the full product, ready to plug in and use.
My father-in-law (a farmer and rancher) used to complain that the agribusiness industry, specifically tractor and implement dealers, were "making a killing" off of the farmer. I had the pleasure of being friends with one of the guys that worked in the business. His experience was the same as mine in the electronics industry. The margin percentage was lower on tractors and implements than it was on parts. Plus, the real killer was in labor for repairs to the equipment. With many, if not most, rv dealerships charging $100 or more for labor, I think we all can see the truth in that.
Now, I can't speak for every RV manufacturer, but what I've seen does indicate that some manufacturers do scrimp on some of the things that a lot of folks don't look at. The "fluff" tends to make a lot of buyers (not all, mind you) really like one brand and don't even notice that underlying structural parts aren't up to snuff. While it is anecdotal, I've certainly heard from a number of folks who bought one brand and then later discovered their error in not doing more looking and research.
Without knowing what all the costs are for all the components of the construction and appliances for an RV, plus overhead and labor, it is hard for me to say that all the manufacturers are "making a killing" off of their buyers. And, lets face it, all companies are in business to make a profit, even in light of the need to repair things after the purchase that are under warranty.
To me, MSRP is simply a ruler by which one can get an idea of what the quality of the coach ought to be. I can say that with our 2010 Mobile Suites with some custom upgrades ended up being a fair bit less than $100,000, even though the MSRP would have been $125,000. To me, the MS is our home for some time to come, even if we aren't traveling yet. To us, the quality of the DRV products "fit" into what we were willing to pay. We would have loved to have a New Horizons, but that price was completely out of range for us.
Terry
Now, I might be wrong on this, but I was under the impression that the manufacturer of an RV weighs each unit after it has been built. I know that they did with the Mobile Suites that we have. With all the paperwork and manuals we got, there was also a sheet listing that weight and showing the difference between the empty weight and the GVWR, thus giving us our cargo carrying capacity.
Terry
Thanks, Bill.
I wasn't sure as the only one I remember being that way was our DRV. I couldn't remember for sure with regards to the 26' TT and then the 26' fifth wheel we had before as to whether we got a sheet with weights.
My bad.
Terry
New Horizons is in a class by itself ... that said, there are many "fans" of many other brands, either by personal experience or heresay. You will hear good & bad on all brands, but mostly all positive about New Horizons ... they really ARE that much better.
New Horizons makes a VERY nice coach. And it is especially nice since YOU get to help with the design. They are very nice units. We've owned two and I've been intimately involved in the design of dozens. Plus I've worked in the factory on the "line". So I think I have a fair understanding of them. They are very well made. But like ALL RVs they are not perfect. Even with a New Horizons you "could" have some issues. The key is how the manufacturer responds to the issue. In the case of NH I can assure you they will do whatever it takes to get it fixed.
The only book I have seen is put out by RV.org - How to Select, Inspect, and Buy an RV, which is included with their membership package. It is a very useful book.
On another note, when going through my RV Buyer's Guide, I noticed that New Horizons chassis was listed as aluminum and was surprised by that since when I had worked there, the big selling point was the steel chassis that they were making in the shop. It was, while Mr. Johnson ran it, a small shop and each unit was worked on as an individual unit rather than assembly line. They were only producing about 2 units per month at that time.
In both cases the wall framing is aluminum, not steel.
Aluminum frames are engineered in-house but actually built at a specialty frame manufacturer (not Lippert) to the New Horizons specifications. This is because aluminum requires special manufacturing/construction techniques and New Horizons has not (to date) built enough of them to justify the in-house investment in the technology.
The rest of the RV is all built in-house on what I would call a semi-production line. There are multiple stations and the coach is moved between them as things progress. New Horizons builds around 32-35 coaches per year (more or less) so you can see that a real "production line" is not required.
Swift
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xb7lr-JGrw
But I think it is made in the UK...wonder if they have a US equivalent?
-- Edited by griffin30 on Sunday 26th of May 2013 11:28:23 AM