Don't know how many of you are Dish Network customers but they have cancelled their Distant Network Service.  As fulltimers we qualified for DNS, giving us the New York and Los Angeles local channels but we got a letter from them stating they could no longer provide them after Nov. 15th.  Evidently they lost a lawsuit that has been percolating in the courts since 2006.  They are though farming out the DNS to a private and separate company that will get you the networks through the Dish equipment - but at almost triple what Dish was charging!

We've decided to just do without the distant networks and rely on our OTA roof antenna for the locals.  I found out that with my VIP 622 receiver I can port the OTA antenna through the receiver and the channels will show up on my Dish Guide.  Only problem is no guide info and if you want you want to record something you need to set up a manual timer.

I know... I could switch to Direct but after being on the road now for almost 8 months I've just nicely gotten the hang of setting up the tripod satellite dish and snaring 3 birds at once for the HD channels.  I'd sure hate to start all over again with a totally new system!

Thanks for the reply, Mike.  I've looked at FTA (Free To Air) satellite before and it looks like I'd have to buy a totally new setup - receiver and dish.  I'm already invested in the Dish equipment so it would be a downside to have to buy all new stuff.  Also I've looked at the channels available on FTA and for the life of me can't see anything that interests me!  Not sure how much Turkish or Vietnamese programming I could handle!   My primary interest in satellite TV is so I can watch all the NASCAR races, get some weather info and watch a movie now and then.  The stuff on Discovery, History, NatGeo and a couple of other channels is cool too.  Yeah, the upside is that FTA is free but if it doesn't serve your needs then it doesn't have much value either! Just sayin'....

Carol, we've thought about that alternative.  From what I know you have to change your service address whenever you want to get your locals in a new place, right?  We're soon going to be staying near Fort Myers, FL for about 4 months so that might be a good alternative. Thanks for the reminder!

Is there really any need to pay for locals through Dish or Direct when most times you can just put up the Batwing and get the locals for the news and weather? I kept my Networks with All American Direct because I like the idea of 2 feeds from each coast and the ability to record several programs at different times for viewing later on.Pretty expensive...but for US it's important so we just pay for the convenience.

Racerguy, that's kind of what we were thinking... why pay someone for something you can get for free? That being said though we have encountered areas where we could only get a limited amount of local channels. I remember in Nebraska we got 7 channels - and all of them were PBS! That's where having the Distant Networks is great.

My beef with All American Direct was that it cost a bunch more to deal with them and all the channels are standard definition to boot.  If I can get the networks OTA in HD, feed them through the Dish DVR then I really have everything except the convenience of the on screen guide. BTW, when you do the OTA channels through the receiver you can record THREE programs at once - 2 from the satellite and one from the OTA antenna. Only limitations are that you can only watch or record one OTA channel at a time and of course you have to set up manual timers not having the guide.

take the guesswork out of what is available on OTA in your area.........small cheap compass and punch in the zipcode for area your in

this web site is provided by the FCC


http://transition.fcc.gov/bureaus/mb/engineering/maps/index.html?zipCode=03819

Edit by moderator: Activated link.  Terry

Ckerr wrote:

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I'm not sure exactly why, but ever since all the OTA channels changed to digital, we've had a really hard time getting a decent picture. Lots of pixelation and freezing. Just too frustrating to watch. If anyone can suggest a solution that would be great. BTW, we've added the attachment to the bat wing antenna.

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 Assuming you have an amplifier on the antenna are you sure the power is on?  Ours is in a cabinet near the front of the coach by the TV and shows power on with a little green indicator light.  Without the amplifier you won't get much at all.  I've also found that the orientation of the antenna can mean a lot.  When we first set up I have the TV scan for stations then I'll rotate the antenna 90 degrees and do it again.  You just have to find the best direction to aim the antenna.  Digital signals aren't like the old analog ones... if you don't have a strong signal you either get nothing or a broken up picture.  With analog you would maybe get a snowy picture but with digital you get nothing if the signal isn't a strong one.

Speaking of websites for OTA signals here's one that I've found very helpful: http://www.antennapoint.com/  It doesn't always give all of the sub channels but will tell you the direction and distance the transmitters that are in your reception area.  He heading direction is a simple compass heading with 0 degrees being north, 90 degrees being east and so on.  With experimentation I've found that you need to point the little digital part of the antenna... the "Wingman" toward the signal.

For those that may find this helpful from a person who was in the professional broadcast “TV Biz” for about 50 years I’ll give you this perspective:

For RV’s, Direct TV is generally the best overall choice.  Here’s the short version as to why:

First: All SD (standard definition) programming can be found on one satellite.  If you’re parked around trees or hills sometimes you can get one satellite but not the two satellites required by Dish for the same programming (or the 2 required for HD from Direct TV.)  This is a huge advantage to people with roof top antennas.  (More to this but I’ll not go into all that here.)

Second: Direct TV didn’t break the law for years which is why Dish has so much trouble with the government FCC Rules that Dish broke.  Therefore Direct TV can directly supply locals or DNS (east or west coast stations for ABC, CBS, Fox, NBC, etc.) without a third party supplier.

If you are in one place for a reasonable time you can call and have Direct TV (or D* as it is referred to in the biz by many) give you the locals off satellite in the area your parked.  You get these as part of most programming packages.  When you move, call them and ask them to switch you to another set of locals for the area you staying in.

Now, if you move a lot, that won’t work as they won’t continually switch them (I don’t know the exact number of changes ‘allowed’ each year) and you may need DNS.  (Howard and Linda are an example of RVers that really do need DNS.)

Also, if you have a Direct TV DVR you can add a box, called an AM-21, to the DVR and it will let you record the off-the-air channels and totally integrate them into the program guide.  This also works well in place of DNS if you want to save some $$$.  Naturally if you’re in the middle of nowhere off-air doesn’t work.  It’s a $$$ trade off.  (We do this and it works fine for us.)  The AM-21 costs something around $57 new.  Amazon has some “used.”  They either work or they don’t so “used” is fine, IMO.  There are no controls on them.  They are operated by the Direct TV remote so find your best price. These AM-21N off-air tuners do SD or HD and work with most of the Direct TV receivers DVR’s that don’t have an off-air tuner built in.  There is no additional fee from Direct TV to use this.  “Plug and NO Pay”   (They do require you to “tell” the DVR what Zip Code your parked in so it knows which off-air channels to look for and put in the program guide.  It’s not all that difficult.  It’s just part of the set up when you move – just like the RV has to be set up.)

http://www.amazon.com/DIRECTV-AM21N-TV-Tuner/dp/B006DQ0QG8/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1353874876&sr=8-1&keywords=am21n

I’ve done several write ups on this including off-air reception in this forum in addition to the presentations Howard had me do at the Rally’s.  So I won’t re-write all those words here.  But if you have specific questions I will be glad to respond.

Hope this helps a bit.

Bill

Thanks, Bill.  That was an excellent post about Direct TV vs Dish Network.

Heh, for someone that used to be the manager of a "major national electronics chain" store and knew a lot about TV's, VCR's and such, I got out of that business before we got too much into satellite TV.  With Bill's answer above, I am SO GLAD that the wife and I had initially gone with Direct TV back in about 2003.  We've been happy with them and still are, so I'm likely to remain where I am with Direct TV even when we finally get to start traveling.

Now, having said all of that, I really wish that all of the satellite and cable companies would let a customer choose and "ala-carte" menu of channels they would like.  I could narrow all of the ones I watch down to less than 20 channels.

Terry

Thanks as usual for the great tutorial, Bill!  We may just have to give DirecTV a look at some point in time if Dish (E*) doesn't get this DNS thing straightened out and our local OTA channel thing doesn't work out.  You're right about having to snag multiple sats with Dish - we need to get 110, 119 and 129 to get all of our channels.  After "practicing" setting up the dish on a tripod a zillion times I've gotten pretty good at it but you're right it is limited sometimes by how much sky the dish can see.  Right now I have 119 and 110 but 129 is below the tree level.  Not a biggie - we're only missing out on some of the HD channels.  I do like the flexibility of the tripod dish so I'm not dependent on the location of the motorhome with an attached dish.  As Carol mentioned earlier, I am going to also investigate getting our locals in areas where we may be parked for any length of time, same as D*.  I was actually told by one of the E* reps in their RV Support Dept. that this is a common practice among RVers. I'm not crazy about paying $5 a month to get something we could probably get for free OTA but having the guide info may be worth the money. Our E* receiver already has the OTA tuner built in and I'm receiving all of my OTA channels through the receiver and can record them as well - just not as easy as if they were on the guide.

Terry, I second your remark about the packages that both companies lock you into.  Being a racing fan I like Speed Channel but neither carrier offers it until you get up into the more expensive packages.  If I could just add that one channel to a lower tier package I could sure save some $$$!

RonaldNC wrote:

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Bill,

I'm with DISH, using a dome on the roof of my MH, and really haven't had any problems with it. I usually get to a new location and just give DISH a call to change the service location and I get all the local channels. As far as I can tell, they don't care how may times you change it. One advantage of DISH (as of 2 years ago) was that I couldn't get high definition from DirecTV using the dome... but I could on DISH. Has this changed?

Thanks!

Ron

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Hey Ron:

No there haven’t been any major changes in the last 2 years as you comment; but let me also say as I do in my presentations – “If you like what you have and it works for you – good for you – don’t change a thing.”  But some may not be in your situation so I'll try to better outline some info FWIW.

As it may be of interest to some and this will get a little technical – most RV answers are a bit technical:   The “dome” antenna is a big compromise as to technical specifications.  “Domes,” in general, use much smaller reflectors (dish size) due to physical weight and size limitations.  The result is that they are just barely large enough to “capture” enough signal for the receiver to lock with just a bit of head room.  If there is much attenuation of the signal, like from rain, the signal can fall below the threshold level and away goes the picture.  However, many Motor Homes, and some 5er’s especially in the past, provided the dome product because that’s all there was and, in the case of Motor Homes, it allowed for some “in motion” reception of signals with the afore mentioned limitations.

Here is the rub with Dish and the above arrangement in many installations.  Dish required and still requires more than one satellite to get all the programs – Direct TV requires just one satellite.  (Standard Definition)  Some of the dome antennas (most?) could only receive one satellite at a time.  When you change to a channel that was on the “other satellite” the dish had to move to that satellite.  This was an additional problem if the DVR needed to record two shows on two different satellites at the same time.  You couldn’t do it.  In summary, Direct TV never has had that problem because all SD programming, including DNS, is on the single 101 bird. (There are other - better - solutions for non-motion installations now for Dish, but they still require more than one satellite for all, even SD, programming.)

While you have not had this issue because of where you park because Dish needs to see multiple satellites to get all the programming and it can be a problem for some – especially in the more northern areas where the “look angle” is more near the horizon than in Florida or Texas for example.  Think trees or hills or buildings)

Yes, it is correct that the dome antenna can get HD from Dish.  But, without going into a lot of “my eyes glaze over” techno speak, I can give multiple examples as to why this isn’t really an issue with Direct TV.  The new, full or partial specification antennas that are available, assuming you don’t want “in motion” reception, provide a better solution with Direct TV in more different and difficult types of camping locations.  (In motion is the operative delimiter.)

Direct TV’s HD satellites are “right next” to the SD satellite.  The HD’s are at 99 degrees and 103 degrees.  The SD satellite is at 101 degrees.  The HD birds are only 2 degrees on either side.  So many times in a difficult camping situation I can just line up my antenna up on 101 and the other two HD birds “work.”  If they don’t I can still get all my programming, including SD DNS service or the regional locals on that one bird - 101.  And it is a breeze to set up an 18” dish on one satellite with 100 feet of cable if necessary should the roof antenna is blocked.  Two or more satellites in a tree environment can be challenging.

(BTW, if you want satellite Internet with satellite TV – like H & L have – Direct TV is the only option as the satellite internet dish can only see one “TV satellite” in addition to picking up the Internet satellite.  This is the system referred to as “Bird on a Wire.” As of Howard's 11/23/2012 post they are upgrading that Bird on a Wire to HD for SD.  Another option available with Direct due to the close spacing of the SD and HD satellies by Direct TV.)

All this is said just for perspective and I am not saying Dish is “bad.”  For a sticks and bricks, IMO, it doesn’t matter – kind of like the Ford / Chevy / Dodge discussion.  But for RV use I believe Direct TV is just more flexible in more situations and that is what I have tried to outline when the question is asked.  Further Direct TV hasn’t had as many issues as Dish with DNS / local service due to run-ins with the FCC Rules.

All this is just perspective for those trying to make a decision and as I always say “Your Mileage May Vary.”  If what you have works well for you, don’t change a thing.

(BTW, I get no free products or commission from Direct TV.  ‘Just been doing this a long time)

Bill

Wow, Bill.

If you EVER get through Oklahoma City, stop and teach me how to "aim" my remote antenna.  While it is fine now, it got slightly "off-level" after I ran into the tripod with my mower.  Fortunately, it didn't turn, so I was still aimed.  Once I got it re-leveled, I had television back.

That little experience has me REALLY gun-shy about ever moving that antenna, which will have to happen once we start to travel (someday.)

Terry

bjoyce wrote:

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If you have a smartphone you can get the Dish Pointer app, which costs money, and it will show you exactly where the satellite is you are aiming for. I know many people who swear by the app and say the cost of the app is cheap for a "marriage saver".

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Yep – Highly recommended when parking to avoid stuf  – $20 for Android or iPhone.

http://www.dishpointer.com/

Bill

Terry and Jo wrote:

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Wow, Bill.

If you EVER get through Oklahoma City, stop and teach me how to "aim" my remote antenna.  While it is fine now, it got slightly "off-level" after I ran into the tripod with my mower.  Fortunately, it didn't turn, so I was still aimed.  Once I got it re-leveled, I had television back.

That little experience has me REALLY gun-shy about ever moving that antenna, which will have to happen once we start to travel (someday.)

Terry

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 Terry, if I can learn how to aim my Dish Network antenna and snag 3 sats at once you can sure do it to get one on Direct!   All you need is a simple compass that will show a degree heading and a signal meter to let you know when your signal is peaked.  I found the real secret to easy dish pointing is to make absolutely sure the mast (the vertical pipe that holds the dish) is absolutely plumb.  Just adjust your elevation, find the azimuth (compass direction) and then rotate the dish side to side until you get the strongest signal. 

Of course the ease of setup of the dish is directly proportional to whether there are trees or other structures in the way.  That's where the DishPointer app comes in that Bill Joyce mentioned.  It really is slick - uses your phone's camera to show you the proper direction and elevation to set up the dish.  Just hold it up in the direction the dish needs to point and you can see whether the sats are visible from anywhere you're thinking of setting up.  I haven't bought it yet for my phone ($20 - yeah I'm cheap!) but I've seen it demonstrated.  I use the DishPointer.com website just about every time I set up.  You can look at their map, target your location and even check the height of obstacles that might be in the way. I use the satellite map which uses Google Earth-like views and can usually determine if it's at least possible to set up a dish in a given location.

Terry and Jo wrote:

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Wow, Bill.

If you EVER get through Oklahoma City, stop and teach me how to "aim" my remote antenna.  While it is fine now, it got slightly "off-level" after I ran into the tripod with my mower.  Fortunately, it didn't turn, so I was still aimed.  Once I got it re-leveled, I had television back.

That little experience has me REALLY gun-shy about ever moving that antenna, which will have to happen once we start to travel (someday.)

Terry

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Terry:

Linda and I hoped to stop by on our last return from our Mission work in Arizona.  We just couldn’t as to time.  Just didn’t work out.

Anyway – I would be glad to show you how, but it really isn’t that hard.  First, the DishPointer app is fine for seeing if the satellite is blocked, but you can’t fine tune the dish with it.

Here is the short version with an 18” dish for SD.  I hope that is what you have.

First – The tripod must be perfectly level for this to work – that’s the first secret.

Second – You use the pointing information from the receiver under the section of “Satellite set up”

Put in the Zip Code where indicated in the Satellite setup menu – the receiver will give you the tilt and horizontal compass pointing direction.  (Does this for HD as well; but the numbers are different due to the geometry of the antenna / dish but that is another tread.)

Put the elevation (tilt) of the dish on the number on the side of the dish given from the receiver

Using a cheap compass point the antenna in the compass direction given

Now, here is the rub – you sort of need a little signal meter that goes on the cable from the receiver at the antenna.  It will give you a signal reading.  You then peak the dish - both elevation and horizontal direction (azimuth) - using the meter.  You can do this using the signal meter on the receiver but it can be physically difficult and even with the DW helping if you don’t do this often with her helping it can be frustrating.  Hence the little meter.

It is very important to get the initial elevation and horizontal direction correct as there are a lot of satellites up there and most meters which we can afford don’t identify the satellite.  The inexpensive ones, like I use, just give you a signal reading.

Now, in your situation right now – IF the tripod is perfectly straight up and down level and the satellite is peaked now – write down the exact elevation number from the side of the dish.  With that number IF the tripod get bumped or whatever you can re-level the tripod  - check that elevation number hasn’t moved – and now you have only one variable to pan the dish in – the horizontal direction - just as you have done before.

If you have a multi-satellite HD antenna this same suggestion will work in your present location if the antenna gets moved.  But if you are traveling it gets a bit more complicated (Hence the “Dish RV issues"– that multiple satellite thing - But it is still easier with Direct due to the near spacing of the HD satellites IMO and experience.  I've done both.)

That said, when you are ready to travel, budget a bit of money and I will be more than happy to show you the tricks of the trade within your budget.  It’s isn’t brain surgery or I couldn’t do it.

Bill

Ron, so far I have always been able to hit 110/119/129 with no problem, so I have never tried anything else.

Nice thing about using a tripod, costs less (Allows me to save money for an Auto Leveling System) and I can move it where I want to.

I will have to try your suggestion if I have problems.

-- Edited by Rob_Fla on Monday 26th of November 2012 09:53:22 PM

Thanks, Bill.

I've "copied and pasted" all that into a Microsoft Word document for future reference.  We did buy one of those little meters so that I would have one, but for the life of me, I can't find it right now, even in such a small home as we have.  Initially, we had Direct TV come out when we moved and set us up and get us a DVR receiver.  When he set us up, I was concerned that there are two different cables running from the dish antenna to the RV.

I'd already ticked off the installer a bit, so I was afraid to ask how I would use the meter for aiming, what with there being two different cables.  So, that meter has never even been opened.  I couldn't even tell you a brand name for the meter.

I guess I will get to learn that whole process some day.  I just wish it were sooner.  We may be a few years yet before retirement.  With Jo's health issues of late, she is concerned about retiring before Medicare will apply for her.  If she decides to wait that long, we might have another 5 years to go.

Terry

Practice,practice,practice.I could have TV in 20 minutes including setup with my 3LNB Dish Network Satellite 99% of the time.That other 1% will drive you up the wall.

Racerguy wrote:

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Practice,practice,practice.I could have TV in 20 minutes including setup with my 3LNB Dish Network Satellite 99% of the time.That other 1% will drive you up the wall.

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 Oh yeah... I can agree with that!  After basically tearing my hair out I finally got the hang of it and now it doesn't take much time at all.  That doesn't count the time that Dish uses to latch on the signal and download the guide. 

For anyone who doesn't want to go to the trouble of setting up a manual dish there's always those portable automatic devices.  I see a lot of folks using those cube things like Winegard's Carryout and Dish's Tailgaiter come to mind.  Just set them in a good spot in view of the satellites, line them up with North and they do the rest.  Winegard's new Anser looks interesting too.

We have Dish with the 3 LNB Dish on a Winegard Tripod.

I bought a Accutek III Meter and my setup time is usually about 5 minutes.

I even impressed myself this week. We are at Disney's Fort Wilderness this week and they have a ton of trees here.

Got my compass heading and set the dish up at the back of our 5er with it aimed over our roof.

Setup the tripod with my bubble level, put the dish on and had a 70% signal on all three LNBs in just a minute or two.

Tightened everything down, good to go. Now we do not have to watch the Mouse Networks few channels.

Note: Anyone coming to Fort Wilderness, the Television cable system provided at the FW campsites no longer has a analog signal, only a digital signal is provoded. Disney / Fort Wilderness will loan you a converter box to use during your stay.

Rob... Assuming you have a 1000.2 dish I suppose you're aiming at sats. 110/119/129? Have you ever tried to get 61.5 and 72.7 with that dish? Those birds, along with 77 are meant to be received by a 1000.4 but I've heard that 61.5 and 72.7 can be received with the 1000.2.  61.5 and 72.7 will give you almost all the channels but in a completely different direction and aimed at a much greater elevation.  I haven't tried it but it sounds like a good alternative when the SW direction is blocked.

Rob, I agree... we use a tripod as well and it's great to be able to pick your spot regardless of where the RV is parked.  I've run as much as 100 ft. of cable to be able to put the dish in a sweet spot.  If you do decide to try for the alternate sats I understand the procedure is to aim at 61.5 but use the skew settings for the 1000.4 dish.  You should then get 72.7 as well. Not sure if you get up in the northeast but 129 is very low in the sky there and difficult to get unless you're in an open field. This could be a great alternative.