We have been having issues with our 4 door, side by side refrigerator in our 5th wheel and are considering the options. If you would like to know more about this, and see pictures of a possible residential refrigerator we are considering, you might check out this blog entry: RV Refrigerator Issues and Possible Solution
Now, my main interest for bringing this up is to get the advice of the really wise folks here on RV Dreams.
We have an extended warranty to repair or replace the current refrigerator. But, since this one has only been in service for 2 years, do I want to do that and chance that it will last longer than 2 more years before problems arise again, or do we want to replace with a residential refrigerator?
We are equipped with a Xantrex SW3000 pure sine wave invertor, although the current RV style fridge is not on that because of the gas operation option. We also have a Honda EU3000IS generator which can be used to operate things and recharge the inverter batteries. As part of this process, we would be having the power outlet for the refrigerator moved to a circuit on the inverter.
Here are the questions:
1. While we do have some form of electrical surge protector, would it be much better for the refrigerator to have an electrical power protector that would also protect against low voltage as well as high voltage? (I'm thinking it would be and I've heard recommendations for Progressive Industries units that might be usable.)
2. If we go with a unit for full power protection, is there a particular model that would be best?
3. We are considering the option of installing a socket at the front of our fifth wheel (see photos below of a similar socket) and while the socket is rated for 50 amps, would there be a problem with this socket only having three electrical contacts instead of the normal four with a 50 amp outlet/plug? (Shown in bottom picture.) (EDIT: Sorry, I should have noted that we will likely purchase a second Honda EU3000IS generator and a parallel kit in order to get around 46 to 47 amps of continuous power from the two of them.)
4. Would any of you have additional suggestions or comments regarding what we would need to do or have to insure that we do a good job converting to a residential?
Since we've never done a conversion such as this before, all suggestions and comments are welcomed.....even the sarcastic and smart-alecky ones. I even need some "comic relief" to help me cope with a bad situation.
Thanks in advance to all.
Terry
-- Edited by Terry and Jo on Sunday 10th of June 2012 10:32:55 PM
-- Edited by bjoyce on Monday 11th of June 2012 09:09:44 AM
Jack Mayer said
11:59 AM Jun 11, 2012
I concur with Bill. If you are keeping the rig - which I assume you are - then by all means put in the Progressive unit, even if you decide to keep the Norcold.
As to the residential refrigerator.....you can go that route fairly easily with what you have now. At least you have a PSW inverter - which I always recommend for a residential refrigerator. You do not indicate what size your battery bank is, or if you intend to run the inverter while under way, or if you boondock, and how much. These are considerations in your planning.
I have a spreadsheet that can help you "think thru" the power use planning for a residential refrigerator - especially if you boondock or drive for long periods of time. It incorporates solar into the solution but you can diddle with all aspects of power provision.
A typical modern residential refrigerator will use in the 100-125Ah DC range per 24 hrs. Less if you turn off defrost and icemaker. Most units can handle these power requirements without too much modification (battery bank, typically) - at least for daily travel if you want to run it. For short travel days just keeping it closed is usually OK, with out it being powered. But I prefer to see a solution that allows you to power it. The spreadsheet is downloadable from my website in the Solar section. Look in the Residential Refrigerator heading.
Power recepticle: technically there is no issue with wiring the 50 amp RV receptical for three wire. I don't recommend it, howevver. It is always best to wire a receptical in its intended fashion. Why not just use the correct receptical? Or does this already exist on your rig and you just want to plug a 30 amp source into it? If the later - then no issue....just use an adaptor. The receptical you show in the picture is a 4-wire, BTW. Ground on the sides....
On edit: or, here is an idea....buy my 2010 New Horizons and solve the entire problem "in one fell swoop". Heck I'll even put in a Samsung 19cf residential if you want..... :)
-- Edited by Jack Mayer on Monday 11th of June 2012 12:02:10 PM
-- Edited by Jack Mayer on Monday 11th of June 2012 12:04:14 PM
NorCal Dan said
05:36 PM Jun 11, 2012
Last summer our Norcold 1210 died. We never found out what exactly happened, but I suspect the refrigerant leaked out. One day it was working fine, the next it was dead. Because we have an extended warranty on our rig I took it to my dealer for diagnosis. If it turned out that it needed to be replaced I wanted a residential. If it could be repaired then that would have been fine.
There were some other problems with the 1210, and it turned out to be the deciding factor. After they troubleshot the 1210 they determined the cooling unit needed to be replaced, and one door needed replacing due to a failed mount point being broken. If it hadn't been for the door being broken I think they would have just replaced the cooling unit. But Norcold would not sell them a single door, apparently they only sell in pairs.
So the dealer and I attempted to convince the warranty company to allow us to replace the 1210 with a residential unit. It would have been much cheaper for them, but they said no. I have no idea why, but in the end they would rather pay $5500 for a replacement 1210. I think we could have easily installed a residential for much less $$.
The residential units, counter-top depth, are more expensive that normal units, and there are some that do not require PSW inverters. They have more cu ft and cool better than the gas absorb units. But they don't run on LP. We don't boondock and I have an 8kw generator so for us it would not have been a problem. I think it's a no-brainer, if you have a choice get the residential unit and don't look back.
Bill and Linda said
06:44 PM Jun 11, 2012
Terry:
Let me tackle one of your questions, specifically #1:Residential refrigerator or not, you simply need more than a simple “surge protector.”The Progressive Industries HW-50C, by specifications, is the best one out there.It deals with high and low voltage as well as “surges.”It also deals with open grounds and neutrals which are quite common believe it or not in RV parks.It will also protect the coach if power comes and goes by giving a time delay before turning the power back on in the coach thus allowing all the surges and stabilization to take place on the power line before applying power to the rig.It will also protect the air conditioner compressors, or heat pumps, from quick restarts.(Some AC units have timers built in – some don’t.)
These are somewhat expensive, but it protects the entire coach and after all it is your home.People sometimes ask why do we need one in our RV and didn’t in our S & B home?Simple answer:RV parks simply don’t have the robust wiring and power distribution systems common in residential neighborhoods.Brownouts and high voltage simply happen more often in “parks” due to the very nature of the electrical installations.
Our Norcold is working fine after 5 years.We’ve never had an issue and Linda has no complaints about the temperature stability. We’ve been from the desert to above the Arctic Circle.So we’re happy with the gas / electric system because we don’t want to deal with having to always have 120 volts for the fridge.For us, it is an “RV” and that’s why we prefer the flexibility of the gas / electric model.But, we travel a lot.Others don’t and that moves the discussion to the “it depends” discussion.
Sorry you having the issue, but I encourage you to get a HW-50C, with the remote meter, installed regardless of your refrigerator decision.
Bill
Terry and Jo said
01:39 AM Jun 12, 2012
Thanks, Guys. That is a start.
Believe it or not, Bill, that is the unit with Progressive Industries that I was kind of looking at, although I hadn't decided on whether I needed the remote display or not.
Sorry, Jack. If I went with the NH, I'd also have to buy your truck as well, and I'm not crazy about the HDT's. Besides, even though I refer to myself as the "King of Overkill," buying a NH to replace a refrigerator might just be a bit much.
Any thoughts as to the front socket being a problem? I guess the issue I have most with it is that it has three contacts instead of four with normal 50 amp and a lot less surface area for the electricity to "travel" along.
Still got some research to do, especially with dimensions and clearances with the counter, but we do seem to be getting even stronger on the idea of the residential.
Terry
Jack Mayer said
01:45 AM Jun 12, 2012
My 2010 can be pulled with an F450 as long as you don't load it more than we did....
...just saying....
Alie and Jims Carrilite said
02:54 AM Jun 12, 2012
The outlet you show is the standard 50amp marine unit we use. 2 hot lugs, neutral, with ground on the side, (as Jack said). Using it to pull 30 amp would be the same as using a standard 30 amp socket- except you drop a hot lug.
For the time being, I would use the warrenty and replace with a Norcold. Upgrade the cooling on the backside with a couple of muffin fans to move air out to help.
Bill and Linda said
02:53 PM Jun 12, 2012
Terry and Jo wrote:
Believe it or not, Bill, that is the unit with Progressive Industries that I was kind of looking at, although I hadn't decided on whether I needed the remote display or not.Terry
Terry:
The remote readout isn’t very expensive and offers some useful information – especially when you start traveling.It also has a by-pass switch on it that allows you to over-ride the voltage and ground / neutral sense circuits should that be necessary.(It will always have “surge” protection regardless of the by-pass.)Most would never use this but with the read out information it can be useful for those who understand the risks and how to manage them.
The meter will tell you the voltage on each leg, the amps on each leg, power line frequency and why there was a fault – such as low or high voltage – open neutral, etc.That allows you to at least know why the power was shut down and perhaps what might be done about it.When you start to travel and find you are operating on marginal power (30 amp / 20 amp) it will tell you how many amps you are drawing and allow you to best utilize what power is available - i.e. max the amps out but not trip the breaker.It will also show you if one of the 50 amp legs is high or low.Sometimes if one 50 amp leg is “bad,” and you know which one, you can go to a 30 amp receptacle and still have acceptable voltage albeit at reduced amperage.(We’ve done this many times including when the voltage was very high on just one leg but not the other – happens all the time.)
Finally, when you arrive at campsite you can use it to check for proper voltage, neutrals and ground before setting up and before turning the rig on.This has saved us many times finding a bad power pole and then moving before the rig before was all set up.
There is more to this than just a little readout – it is very useful - especially when you travel. Installation is plug and play with the provided "telephone type" cable.
Bill
RVRon said
05:27 PM Jun 12, 2012
Well, let me run against the discussion stream here and debate the worth of the remote display. We have the 30 amp version (EMS-LCHW30) and it has a display on the unit itself. We don't have the need to monitor our amperage usage via the EMS because that displays on our power panel inside the coach. Otherwise if the power goes out for some reason I'm not too lazy to just go outside and look at the display on the unit in the power bay and see what's up. I don't see the need to constantly read the voltage level or error codes - the unit will disrupt the service if there's something wrong anyway. Just sayin... we chose to save a few bucks and a lot of installation/wiring hassles and omited the remote display.
As for the residential fridge, we have friends that installed one and just love it. However.... they rarely if ever boondock and thus have no problem supplying electrical current to run it. I'd suspect (no I haven't done the math) that it would cost a lot less to just buy propane than to buy all the paraphernalia needed to supply AC electricity to the fridge and to recharge the batteries as a result of the drain.
-- Edited by RVRon on Tuesday 12th of June 2012 05:28:37 PM
RVPAINTER said
08:38 PM Jun 12, 2012
Get the Progreessive Industries EMS/Surge Protection. We had ours hard wired in as part of the RV construction. It will not allow the elec. to come on if a problem - it checks it first and if the voltage drops or increases to an unsafe level it shuts the power off before damage can be done.
I would certainly get the remote readout.
Our electricity shut off the other day (via the Progressive Industries unit) and the remote unit registered 238 volts!!!! We were plugged into a 30 amp service!!!!!!!!!!!
The fellow beside us with a very expensive Class A had no protection and his electronics were FRIED!!!!! Once the elec problem was fixed, he had NO electronics working in his RV!!!
Jack Mayer said
08:41 PM Jun 12, 2012
You are probably convinced by now...but let me "pile on" too. You WANT the remote readout!!!
Terry and Jo said
03:53 AM Jun 14, 2012
Thanks again, All.
Richard, that is a scary situation of a spike that large. Glad yours was protected.
Jack, there is something wrong with your links. I keep getting "dead-headed."
RV Ron, we are equipped with both an inverter and a Honda generator, so boondocking wouldn't really be a problem.
However, due to having some concerns with clearance between the residential refrigerator's handles and the peninsula counter, we've decided to just use the warranty to repair or replace the current refrigerator. (I still have a sense that the residential would fit, but since I'm not ABSOLUTELY convinced, we'll wait.) That will let us do more research on the fridges, pay off some more bills before buying a residential, and hopefully get us up and running sooner than later.
However, I'm still going to do something with the Progressive Industries unit.
Terry
Jack Mayer said
02:46 PM Jun 14, 2012
Terry I tested the links and they work for me.....try again and let me know. Anyone else have an issue with them?
Racerguy said
07:24 PM Jun 14, 2012
Work fine for me.
Terry and Jo said
05:30 AM Jun 15, 2012
Jack Mayer wrote:
Terry I tested the links and they work for me.....try again and let me know. Anyone else have an issue with them?
They are working for me now. Must have been a temporary glitch.
Terry
ahoweth said
08:13 AM Jun 17, 2012
Any one out there ever hear of the Fisher and Pakel company. They make counter depth refrigerators that are not quite as tall as the Samsung models? I never heard of that company before and am leery of laying out $1000+ for a fridge I never heard of before? Any help would be appreciated.
-- Edited by ahoweth on Sunday 17th of June 2012 08:14:31 AM
Lynn and Ed said
11:50 AM Jun 17, 2012
Fisher & Paykel in based in New Zealand and was established in 1934. I think they are best known in the US for their drawer dishwashers, but they offer built-in ovens, electric cooktops, dishwashers, dryers, freezers, ranges, rangehoods, refrigerators and washing machines.
Although I have not personally owned any Fisher & Paykel products, I have not heard any complaints from friends who own their products.
-- Edited by Lyn on Sunday 17th of June 2012 11:50:47 AM
Terry and Jo said
01:15 PM Jun 17, 2012
Alan,
From the research we have done, it appears that the "counter depth" is based on counter depths in regular homes. The Samsung we were looking at is supposedly a counter depth refrigerator, but it is seems to be deeper than our RV counter depth.
Terry
-- Edited by Terry and Jo on Sunday 17th of June 2012 01:23:18 PM
Terry and Jo said
04:45 AM Jul 2, 2012
OK. I know I said we were going to go with replacing the RV refrigerator with another if the original couldn't be fixed in a previous post here, but that has changed. This whole mess of trouble-shooting to try to find the problem has made us rethink things.
The last thing we want to do is have to go through all this again in just a couple of years. It seems that RV refrigerators, whether Norcold or Dometic, have a somewhat bad reputation of not lasting very long. (Ours was brand new 2 years ago when we bought the Mobile Suites.)
So, we've now ordered a Samsung RF197ACPN residential refrigerator and are planning on remodeling the refrigerator area when it arrives to get it into place. We have had help from Alicia and Slade at Rolling Retreats in Elk City, OK with the Dometic trouble-shooting, and when I told them of our decision, they offered to come to the city to help us do the change over. With them and our youngest son, Eric, we will do the job about mid-July. (Yeah, perhaps right in the heat.)
If anyone is really interested, I've posted some blog entries regarding our problems and of the modifications of others to their fifth wheels to put in the same model of residential refrigerator. The fact that others have put them into Mobile Suites fivers has given me some comfort as I've agonized as to what would have to be done to fit one into the area for the refrigerator.
When we do the change-over, I will be taking some photos of the process and doing a posting about our results on the blog.
Terry
galtgirl said
09:15 PM Sep 16, 2014
We are thinking seriously about converting our 4 door RV refrigerator to a Residential. Has anyone inquired about the labor costs to have it done by an RV specialist. My husband doesn't feel inclined to tackle the project himself due to his torn shoulder. I know the price of the refrigerator but have no idea the cost for professional installation.
Thanks,
Carol
igotjam said
06:53 AM Sep 17, 2014
F&P fridge. Installed one this summer to replace the Norcold 1210 that never worked properly. The F&P was chosen mainly because we liked the styling over the Samsung. In addition we wanted to install it on a platform about 2" above the floor level. The mounting feet on the F&P stayed within the 24" depth we had whereas the front Samsung feet were more than 24" to the rear of the fridge which would complicate our install. Love the F&P so far. Quiet, keeps stuff cold while traveling (no inverter, only runs on shore power) looks good. Our ice cream is still frozen after 6-7 hours on the road where the Norcold was melty all the time. Did the install ourselves. Not bad....hardest part was building interior cabinet for fridge before install. Screwed fridge to platform and have travelled a few thousand miles on fairly rough roads with zero movement.
bjoyce said
06:55 AM Sep 17, 2014
Cost us roughly $1000 in labor, which included lowering the floor, rerouting water and propane lines, and some cabinet changes. Our install was much like this one, http://www.rvforum.net/miscfiles/Residential_Refrigerator_Install.pdf, same floorplan, slightly different fridge. Most installs are easier.
Measure, measure, measure your space. I know someone who could not install a fridge because the fridge plug was round and stuck out enough it could not be slipped into the narrow hallway.
Terry and Jo said
12:15 PM Sep 17, 2014
galtgirl wrote:
We are thinking seriously about converting our 4 door RV refrigerator to a Residential. Has anyone inquired about the labor costs to have it done by an RV specialist. My husband doesn't feel inclined to tackle the project himself due to his torn shoulder. I know the price of the refrigerator but have no idea the cost for professional installation. Thanks, Carol
Carol,
I'm not going to be of much help with regards to the cost of having someone else install a residential in place of a RV fridge, but I seem to recall a company in Indiana that quoted a couple a price of around $1500. However, without having an itemized list of what was needed to modify and install the refrigerator, that might have been a good quote, or maybe not.
However, just in case that labor costs scare you off, allow me to bring up my research and resolution of our modifications. As we went through the modification and installation process, I took pictures of things that we did and posted them on my blog. I don't know if you've seen those postings, so below will be a link to an RV Dreams forum thread where I posted all the various links, all of which (with regards to our conversion) are at the bottom of the original post at that thread.
A lot may depend on how much modifying would have to be done in your RV with regards to the shoulder problems. We had to "lower the refrigerator's floor" a bit, but we still have access to the slide rollers under it if we ever need to make adjustments or repairs. That lowering would have been the hardest part of our modification for our residential fridge. Otherwise, if one had access to some helpers, the installation might not be the problem that one would think. For instance, we had a 4-wheel furniture dolly that I added an "insert" to that allowed us to get the refrigerator up to the height needed to ease it into the cavity for the refrigerator. Thus, no need for a lot of lifting to turn the fridge around the end of the kitchen counter.
Anyway, check the blog links at the bottom of the original post of the thread below and see if that is of any help to you. Oddly enough, the threads on my blog about the residential conversion have proved to be the most viewed parts of my blog. I guess I'm pretty much boring on all the other subjects I wrote about.
Good luck with your planning and research. Just be sure and do a LOT of measuring before you start modifying.
Terry
galtgirl said
04:10 PM Sep 17, 2014
Terry, I did read your blog about replacing your RV fridge, and I must say you did a great job. It looks very professional.
My husband really doesn't want to tackle the project since we don't have any help available. I am a perfectionist and he knows I want it done right. I've seen pictures of some installs that I would not be happy with...not yours!!
We are taking the RV in for carpet and tile replacement in a couple of weeks and we will get an estimate from them while they have the RV there and can measure and tell us exactly what we need in the way of a refrigerator that will fit. We don't currently have an ice maker in ours so I'm assuming a water line will have to be installed as well. We don't plan to boondock so may or may not get an inverter. We are never without power for more than 6 hours when we have food in the fridge (barring a major power outage which could happen).
I'll let you know what we decide to do.
bjoyce said
05:22 PM Sep 17, 2014
I don't recommend assuming you can go 6 hours with no electric power. You have to use thermometers, luckily Acurite makes a nice wireless set that you can get. You might be able to go 6 hours, you might be able to go 8, but you also might only be able to go 4 hours. We found at 4 hours our freezer was about 25 degrees, so 6 hours was out. We already had a water line. Realize if you get water and/or ice through the door, the door does not come off so you will have to deal with the door on depth for getting it in the spot.
Ordering a fridge can take many weeks or even a couple months. They freight them and tracking is really lousy.
I don't recommend assuming you can go 6 hours with no electric power. You have to use thermometers, luckily Acurite makes a nice wireless set that you can get. You might be able to go 6 hours, you might be able to go 8, but you also might only be able to go 4 hours. We found at 4 hours our freezer was about 25 degrees, so 6 hours was out. We already had a water line. Realize if you get water and/or ice through the door, the door does not come off so you will have to deal with the door on depth for getting it in the spot.
Ordering a fridge can take many weeks or even a couple months. They freight them and tracking is really lousy.
I have helped move refrigerators with ice and water in the door and have been able to remove the door. It takes more work to remove the door, you have to disconnect the wire and water connections and then hook them up again. A bit of a pain, but doable.
galtgirl said
11:59 AM Sep 19, 2014
Thanks Bill, I read that post too. It's great that people are willing to share what they learn when tackling these projects. I don't plan on getting a refrigerator with ice and water on the door. I prefer to have the ice cubes in a tray in the freezer and I use a Britta pitcher for my water.
We have been having issues with our 4 door, side by side refrigerator in our 5th wheel and are considering the options. If you would like to know more about this, and see pictures of a possible residential refrigerator we are considering, you might check out this blog entry: RV Refrigerator Issues and Possible Solution
Now, my main interest for bringing this up is to get the advice of the really wise folks here on RV Dreams.
We have an extended warranty to repair or replace the current refrigerator. But, since this one has only been in service for 2 years, do I want to do that and chance that it will last longer than 2 more years before problems arise again, or do we want to replace with a residential refrigerator?
We are equipped with a Xantrex SW3000 pure sine wave invertor, although the current RV style fridge is not on that because of the gas operation option. We also have a Honda EU3000IS generator which can be used to operate things and recharge the inverter batteries. As part of this process, we would be having the power outlet for the refrigerator moved to a circuit on the inverter.
Here are the questions:
1. While we do have some form of electrical surge protector, would it be much better for the refrigerator to have an electrical power protector that would also protect against low voltage as well as high voltage? (I'm thinking it would be and I've heard recommendations for Progressive Industries units that might be usable.)
2. If we go with a unit for full power protection, is there a particular model that would be best?
3. We are considering the option of installing a socket at the front of our fifth wheel (see photos below of a similar socket) and while the socket is rated for 50 amps, would there be a problem with this socket only having three electrical contacts instead of the normal four with a 50 amp outlet/plug? (Shown in bottom picture.) (EDIT: Sorry, I should have noted that we will likely purchase a second Honda EU3000IS generator and a parallel kit in order to get around 46 to 47 amps of continuous power from the two of them.)
4. Would any of you have additional suggestions or comments regarding what we would need to do or have to insure that we do a good job converting to a residential?
Since we've never done a conversion such as this before, all suggestions and comments are welcomed.....even the sarcastic and smart-alecky ones. I even need some "comic relief" to help me cope with a bad situation.
Thanks in advance to all.
Terry
-- Edited by Terry and Jo on Sunday 10th of June 2012 10:32:55 PM
Instead of replacing the whole fridge some install beefed up cooling units from http://www.rvcoolingunit.net/servlet/StoreFront or http://rvcoolingunit.com/ , which might be the same people behind the scenes. Just another option to consider.
-- Edited by bjoyce on Monday 11th of June 2012 09:09:44 AM
I concur with Bill. If you are keeping the rig - which I assume you are - then by all means put in the Progressive unit, even if you decide to keep the Norcold.
As to the residential refrigerator.....you can go that route fairly easily with what you have now. At least you have a PSW inverter - which I always recommend for a residential refrigerator. You do not indicate what size your battery bank is, or if you intend to run the inverter while under way, or if you boondock, and how much. These are considerations in your planning.
I have a spreadsheet that can help you "think thru" the power use planning for a residential refrigerator - especially if you boondock or drive for long periods of time. It incorporates solar into the solution but you can diddle with all aspects of power provision.
A typical modern residential refrigerator will use in the 100-125Ah DC range per 24 hrs. Less if you turn off defrost and icemaker. Most units can handle these power requirements without too much modification (battery bank, typically) - at least for daily travel if you want to run it. For short travel days just keeping it closed is usually OK, with out it being powered. But I prefer to see a solution that allows you to power it. The spreadsheet is downloadable from my website in the Solar section. Look in the Residential Refrigerator heading.
Power recepticle: technically there is no issue with wiring the 50 amp RV receptical for three wire. I don't recommend it, howevver. It is always best to wire a receptical in its intended fashion. Why not just use the correct receptical? Or does this already exist on your rig and you just want to plug a 30 amp source into it? If the later - then no issue....just use an adaptor. The receptical you show in the picture is a 4-wire, BTW. Ground on the sides....
On edit: or, here is an idea....buy my 2010 New Horizons and solve the entire problem "in one fell swoop". Heck I'll even put in a Samsung 19cf residential if you want..... :)
-- Edited by Jack Mayer on Monday 11th of June 2012 12:02:10 PM
-- Edited by Jack Mayer on Monday 11th of June 2012 12:04:14 PM
There were some other problems with the 1210, and it turned out to be the deciding factor. After they troubleshot the 1210 they determined the cooling unit needed to be replaced, and one door needed replacing due to a failed mount point being broken. If it hadn't been for the door being broken I think they would have just replaced the cooling unit. But Norcold would not sell them a single door, apparently they only sell in pairs.
So the dealer and I attempted to convince the warranty company to allow us to replace the 1210 with a residential unit. It would have been much cheaper for them, but they said no. I have no idea why, but in the end they would rather pay $5500 for a replacement 1210. I think we could have easily installed a residential for much less $$.
The residential units, counter-top depth, are more expensive that normal units, and there are some that do not require PSW inverters. They have more cu ft and cool better than the gas absorb units. But they don't run on LP. We don't boondock and I have an 8kw generator so for us it would not have been a problem. I think it's a no-brainer, if you have a choice get the residential unit and don't look back.
Terry:
Let me tackle one of your questions, specifically #1: Residential refrigerator or not, you simply need more than a simple “surge protector.” The Progressive Industries HW-50C, by specifications, is the best one out there. It deals with high and low voltage as well as “surges.” It also deals with open grounds and neutrals which are quite common believe it or not in RV parks. It will also protect the coach if power comes and goes by giving a time delay before turning the power back on in the coach thus allowing all the surges and stabilization to take place on the power line before applying power to the rig. It will also protect the air conditioner compressors, or heat pumps, from quick restarts. (Some AC units have timers built in – some don’t.)
These are somewhat expensive, but it protects the entire coach and after all it is your home. People sometimes ask why do we need one in our RV and didn’t in our S & B home? Simple answer: RV parks simply don’t have the robust wiring and power distribution systems common in residential neighborhoods. Brownouts and high voltage simply happen more often in “parks” due to the very nature of the electrical installations.
Our Norcold is working fine after 5 years. We’ve never had an issue and Linda has no complaints about the temperature stability. We’ve been from the desert to above the Arctic Circle. So we’re happy with the gas / electric system because we don’t want to deal with having to always have 120 volts for the fridge. For us, it is an “RV” and that’s why we prefer the flexibility of the gas / electric model. But, we travel a lot. Others don’t and that moves the discussion to the “it depends” discussion.
Sorry you having the issue, but I encourage you to get a HW-50C, with the remote meter, installed regardless of your refrigerator decision.
Bill
Thanks, Guys. That is a start.
Believe it or not, Bill, that is the unit with Progressive Industries that I was kind of looking at, although I hadn't decided on whether I needed the remote display or not.
Sorry, Jack. If I went with the NH, I'd also have to buy your truck as well, and I'm not crazy about the HDT's. Besides, even though I refer to myself as the "King of Overkill," buying a NH to replace a refrigerator might just be a bit much.
Any thoughts as to the front socket being a problem? I guess the issue I have most with it is that it has three contacts instead of four with normal 50 amp and a lot less surface area for the electricity to "travel" along.
Still got some research to do, especially with dimensions and clearances with the counter, but we do seem to be getting even stronger on the idea of the residential.
Terry
...just saying....
Using it to pull 30 amp would be the same as using a standard 30 amp socket- except you drop a hot lug.
For the time being, I would use the warrenty and replace with a Norcold. Upgrade the cooling on the backside with a couple of muffin fans to move air out to help.
Terry:
The remote readout isn’t very expensive and offers some useful information – especially when you start traveling. It also has a by-pass switch on it that allows you to over-ride the voltage and ground / neutral sense circuits should that be necessary. (It will always have “surge” protection regardless of the by-pass.) Most would never use this but with the read out information it can be useful for those who understand the risks and how to manage them.
The meter will tell you the voltage on each leg, the amps on each leg, power line frequency and why there was a fault – such as low or high voltage – open neutral, etc. That allows you to at least know why the power was shut down and perhaps what might be done about it. When you start to travel and find you are operating on marginal power (30 amp / 20 amp) it will tell you how many amps you are drawing and allow you to best utilize what power is available - i.e. max the amps out but not trip the breaker. It will also show you if one of the 50 amp legs is high or low. Sometimes if one 50 amp leg is “bad,” and you know which one, you can go to a 30 amp receptacle and still have acceptable voltage albeit at reduced amperage. (We’ve done this many times including when the voltage was very high on just one leg but not the other – happens all the time.)
Finally, when you arrive at campsite you can use it to check for proper voltage, neutrals and ground before setting up and before turning the rig on. This has saved us many times finding a bad power pole and then moving before the rig before was all set up.
There is more to this than just a little readout – it is very useful - especially when you travel. Installation is plug and play with the provided "telephone type" cable.
Bill
Well, let me run against the discussion stream here and debate the worth of the remote display. We have the 30 amp version (EMS-LCHW30) and it has a display on the unit itself. We don't have the need to monitor our amperage usage via the EMS because that displays on our power panel inside the coach. Otherwise if the power goes out for some reason I'm not too lazy to just go outside and look at the display on the unit in the power bay and see what's up. I don't see the need to constantly read the voltage level or error codes - the unit will disrupt the service if there's something wrong anyway. Just sayin... we chose to save a few bucks and a lot of installation/wiring hassles and omited the remote display.
As for the residential fridge, we have friends that installed one and just love it. However.... they rarely if ever boondock and thus have no problem supplying electrical current to run it. I'd suspect (no I haven't done the math) that it would cost a lot less to just buy propane than to buy all the paraphernalia needed to supply AC electricity to the fridge and to recharge the batteries as a result of the drain.
-- Edited by RVRon on Tuesday 12th of June 2012 05:28:37 PM
I would certainly get the remote readout.
Our electricity shut off the other day (via the Progressive Industries unit) and the remote unit registered 238 volts!!!! We were plugged into a 30 amp service!!!!!!!!!!!
The fellow beside us with a very expensive Class A had no protection and his electronics were FRIED!!!!! Once the elec problem was fixed, he had NO electronics working in his RV!!!
Thanks again, All.
Richard, that is a scary situation of a spike that large. Glad yours was protected.
Jack, there is something wrong with your links. I keep getting "dead-headed."
RV Ron, we are equipped with both an inverter and a Honda generator, so boondocking wouldn't really be a problem.
However, due to having some concerns with clearance between the residential refrigerator's handles and the peninsula counter, we've decided to just use the warranty to repair or replace the current refrigerator. (I still have a sense that the residential would fit, but since I'm not ABSOLUTELY convinced, we'll wait.) That will let us do more research on the fridges, pay off some more bills before buying a residential, and hopefully get us up and running sooner than later.
However, I'm still going to do something with the Progressive Industries unit.
Terry
They are working for me now. Must have been a temporary glitch.
Terry
Any one out there ever hear of the Fisher and Pakel company. They make counter depth refrigerators that are not quite as tall as the Samsung models? I never heard of that company before and am leery of laying out $1000+ for a fridge I never heard of before? Any help would be appreciated.
-- Edited by ahoweth on Sunday 17th of June 2012 08:14:31 AM
Fisher & Paykel in based in New Zealand and was established in 1934. I think they are best known in the US for their drawer dishwashers, but they offer built-in ovens, electric cooktops, dishwashers, dryers, freezers, ranges, rangehoods, refrigerators and washing machines.
Although I have not personally owned any Fisher & Paykel products, I have not heard any complaints from friends who own their products.
-- Edited by Lyn on Sunday 17th of June 2012 11:50:47 AM
Alan,
From the research we have done, it appears that the "counter depth" is based on counter depths in regular homes. The Samsung we were looking at is supposedly a counter depth refrigerator, but it is seems to be deeper than our RV counter depth.
Terry
-- Edited by Terry and Jo on Sunday 17th of June 2012 01:23:18 PM
OK. I know I said we were going to go with replacing the RV refrigerator with another if the original couldn't be fixed in a previous post here, but that has changed. This whole mess of trouble-shooting to try to find the problem has made us rethink things.
The last thing we want to do is have to go through all this again in just a couple of years. It seems that RV refrigerators, whether Norcold or Dometic, have a somewhat bad reputation of not lasting very long. (Ours was brand new 2 years ago when we bought the Mobile Suites.)
So, we've now ordered a Samsung RF197ACPN residential refrigerator and are planning on remodeling the refrigerator area when it arrives to get it into place. We have had help from Alicia and Slade at Rolling Retreats in Elk City, OK with the Dometic trouble-shooting, and when I told them of our decision, they offered to come to the city to help us do the change over. With them and our youngest son, Eric, we will do the job about mid-July. (Yeah, perhaps right in the heat.)
If anyone is really interested, I've posted some blog entries regarding our problems and of the modifications of others to their fifth wheels to put in the same model of residential refrigerator. The fact that others have put them into Mobile Suites fivers has given me some comfort as I've agonized as to what would have to be done to fit one into the area for the refrigerator.
When we do the change-over, I will be taking some photos of the process and doing a posting about our results on the blog.
Terry
Thanks,
Carol
Cost us roughly $1000 in labor, which included lowering the floor, rerouting water and propane lines, and some cabinet changes. Our install was much like this one, http://www.rvforum.net/miscfiles/Residential_Refrigerator_Install.pdf, same floorplan, slightly different fridge. Most installs are easier.
Measure, measure, measure your space. I know someone who could not install a fridge because the fridge plug was round and stuck out enough it could not be slipped into the narrow hallway.
Carol,
I'm not going to be of much help with regards to the cost of having someone else install a residential in place of a RV fridge, but I seem to recall a company in Indiana that quoted a couple a price of around $1500. However, without having an itemized list of what was needed to modify and install the refrigerator, that might have been a good quote, or maybe not.
However, just in case that labor costs scare you off, allow me to bring up my research and resolution of our modifications. As we went through the modification and installation process, I took pictures of things that we did and posted them on my blog. I don't know if you've seen those postings, so below will be a link to an RV Dreams forum thread where I posted all the various links, all of which (with regards to our conversion) are at the bottom of the original post at that thread.
A lot may depend on how much modifying would have to be done in your RV with regards to the shoulder problems. We had to "lower the refrigerator's floor" a bit, but we still have access to the slide rollers under it if we ever need to make adjustments or repairs. That lowering would have been the hardest part of our modification for our residential fridge. Otherwise, if one had access to some helpers, the installation might not be the problem that one would think. For instance, we had a 4-wheel furniture dolly that I added an "insert" to that allowed us to get the refrigerator up to the height needed to ease it into the cavity for the refrigerator. Thus, no need for a lot of lifting to turn the fridge around the end of the kitchen counter.
Anyway, check the blog links at the bottom of the original post of the thread below and see if that is of any help to you. Oddly enough, the threads on my blog about the residential conversion have proved to be the most viewed parts of my blog. I guess I'm pretty much boring on all the other subjects I wrote about.
Saga of a Residential Refrigerator
Good luck with your planning and research. Just be sure and do a LOT of measuring before you start modifying.
Terry
My husband really doesn't want to tackle the project since we don't have any help available. I am a perfectionist and he knows I want it done right. I've seen pictures of some installs that I would not be happy with...not yours!!
We are taking the RV in for carpet and tile replacement in a couple of weeks and we will get an estimate from them while they have the RV there and can measure and tell us exactly what we need in the way of a refrigerator that will fit. We don't currently have an ice maker in ours so I'm assuming a water line will have to be installed as well. We don't plan to boondock so may or may not get an inverter. We are never without power for more than 6 hours when we have food in the fridge (barring a major power outage which could happen).
I'll let you know what we decide to do.
I don't recommend assuming you can go 6 hours with no electric power. You have to use thermometers, luckily Acurite makes a nice wireless set that you can get. You might be able to go 6 hours, you might be able to go 8, but you also might only be able to go 4 hours. We found at 4 hours our freezer was about 25 degrees, so 6 hours was out. We already had a water line. Realize if you get water and/or ice through the door, the door does not come off so you will have to deal with the door on depth for getting it in the spot.
Ordering a fridge can take many weeks or even a couple months. They freight them and tracking is really lousy.
There are lots of fridge install posts on the internet, here is one a good friend did - http://janeandjohn.org/pages/NorcoldReplacement.html.
I have helped move refrigerators with ice and water in the door and have been able to remove the door. It takes more work to remove the door, you have to disconnect the wire and water connections and then hook them up again. A bit of a pain, but doable.