Hi to all. My wife & I are fulltime wannabes, looking to make the move this year. We are seriously looking at a New Horizons Majestic 5ver in the 39-42 ft range (i.e HEAVY) and are looking to get a 2012 Ford F450 as our tow vehicle.
I have been reading this and other forums with regards to Pickup vs MDT vs HDT. There is a lot of discussion with stopping power (or lack thereof) when using a pickup.
However, I haven't seen any thing where the trialer brakes are entered into the equation. Our trailer will probably be a tri-axle and I am going to get the Mor/Ryde IS suspension and upgrade to Kodiak disc breaks (which to my understanding is referred to hydraulic over electric)
Would this setup alleviate some of the concern regarding the stopping power when using a pick-up.
Thanks in advance for any advice.
Jack Mayer said
08:50 PM Dec 22, 2011
Kerry, I have a pretty nice New Horizons for sale....take a look on my website here.
If you buy a New Horizons it will have Dexter disc brakes on it not Kodiak. And yes, they will help you stop a LOT....unless they fail or the myriad of things that can go wrong with an electric/hydraulic setup happens. Things do fail, but if they do not, and you have a properly adjusted controller then you should have decent braking.
If you have NH questions (on my rig or on any NH) feel free to email me.
Terry and Jo said
08:54 PM Dec 22, 2011
Kerry,
Jo and I own a 2010 Mobile Suites 38TKSB3 with a GVWR of 18,500 lbs. As for weight on the New Horizons, I've "heard" that their GVWR is around 21,000 lbs.
Our Ford F450 is a 2008, which means it still has the 19.5" wheels and the heavier GVWR at 14,500 lbs. Then newer ones have 17" wheels (thus smaller brakes) and are rated something like 13,050 lbs GVWR. That lower weight for the GVWR might be a factor with the pin weight of a New Horizons.
Also, even though the Kodiak brakes are good brakes, if there is a failure, I would really be leary of a newer F450 with the smaller brakes. Should there be a trailer brake failure, I sure wouldn't want to be on a major grade or be in a panic stop mode.
If you went with a F450 weighing 13,000 lbs loaded and had a 21,000 lbs trailer, your gross weight would be 34,000 lbs and the F450's Gross Combined Weight Rating is only 33,000 lbs. Since most people like their truck to have some "cushion" in regards to weight, the above combination would have no cushion, and in fact, would probably be overweight.
For as heavy as the New Horizons are, I would go with no less than an MDT. While the F450 is "technically" an MDT, it is at the low end of that category.
Jack Mayer, who posted just ahead of me, has a New Horizons and he is pulling his with an HDT. When we were looking and looked at an MDT (SportsChassis - mini-Freightliner), that one as used was $90,000 and a new one was $125,000 to $135,000. One could buy a used HDT and convert it to a tow vehicle for a lot less than that, plus have an engine with a lot more potential life in it.
Terry
-- Edited by Terry and Jo on Thursday 22nd of December 2011 08:55:33 PM
Bill and Linda said
08:38 AM Dec 23, 2011
Concerning the brakes, i.e. “Electric over Hydraulic Disc” (Dexter in my case):They will stop you.The difference between these and the old style magnet / drum brakes is daylight and dark.My trailer alone will stop the trailer and the truck without truck brakes.Not recommended but said to emphasize the point concerning the trailer brakes and not the need, or not, for an MDT / HDT.IMO all larger (like over 15,000lb) trailers should have these as standard equipment.Smaller trailers should have them as well if you can get them and afford the additional costs.They are that good.
Also, the MOR/ryde “IS” is well worth the money.We upgraded to it a few years ago.Another daylight and dark comparison between it and any type of “spring” suspension regardless of the air bag system between the springs.It’s just that much better than any “metal spring based” system – even my DW noticed the vast improvement in the way the rig didn’t move around nor jar the tow vehicle. We've pulled both types.
FWIW I would take a look at the rig Jack has available.I don’t think you will be disappointed.
Safe travels
Bill
Jack Mayer said
11:05 AM Dec 23, 2011
An F450 is going to weigh under 10K loaded for fulltiming. My F550 was always under 10K and believe me I had that baby loaded up. 84 gallons fuel, a large tool box, etc.
A New Horizons in the 40' range is going to be around 21-22K lbs loaded for fulltiming. Maybe a touch more. My 42' with all our "stuff" is under 23K lbs. And we have LOTS of stuff... :) It will vary, of course, depending on YOUR stuff....
Never buy a new 5th wheel without disc brakes. No exceptions. As Bill said - night and day difference, and far more reliable. Also, Mor/Ryde IS is the finest suspension on the market - in MY opinion. I have had it on 3 rigs. I could put air ride on any of the rigs I have built, but I stick to MR IS. Tires, brakes and running gear is NOT the place to skimp or save money.
If anyone wants to discuss the merits of an HDT vs other tow vehicles let me know. I'll give you an honest assessment based on your needs/circumstances. They are not for evveryone, but they have some huge advantages....probably things that most people would not think about. If a group wants to have an unofficial chat on that topic at the April Rally we can do that over adult beverages. I won't be doing any presentations on that topic, but I'm always available to talk about it.
Bill and Linda said
11:49 AM Dec 23, 2011
Jack:
I think the HDT / MDT truck discussion “over some refreshments” is a great idea.But we should consider as well the educational process for those that may not know concerning weight rating and what all those letters really mean:Like RAWR, FAWR, GVWR, etc.‘Kind of a follow on to the Howard “official” presentation on tires and safety, etc.
I agree with you that HDT’s are great (as are some MDT’s), loved ‘em when I drove one. But they are not for everyone and in some cases are just not needed unless simply desired. It depends and education is the best way to know. So really understanding the manufacture’s ratings and what they all mean might really be a good thing for those just beginning or considering upgrades in the future.
We’ll see what develops in Kerrville . . .
Bill
Kerry said
04:05 PM Dec 23, 2011
Thank for the responses, but now I have a follow-up question concerning trailer brakes (spelled it right this time) Jack stated that New Horizons come with Dexter Disks. I tried to call the factory today to see about the brake options, and if I could get Kodiaks, but they were closed. My question is what are the pros and cons of Dexter vs. Kodiak? From my reading, Kodiak uses standard automotive pads that can be obtained at most part stores (which I like), where it appears that Dexter pads, although warranted for life, must be replaced by Dexter. Not being familiar with either, and trying to gain an education, I'm tossing this out to find some guidance. Is one brand better than the other, or does it matter?
Also, I hope this is the appropriate forum for this question, as I've never done any of this posting stuff before
Bill and Linda said
04:49 PM Dec 23, 2011
Kerry wrote:
From my reading, Kodiak uses standard automotive pads that can be obtained at most part stores (which I like), where it appears that Dexter pads, although warranted for life, must be replaced by Dexter. Also, I hope this is the appropriate forum for this question, as I've never done any of this posting stuff before
Sure is, IMO, as to a place to ask the question. I belived that is correct as pertains to Kodiak vs Dexter pads. However, as I have Dexter I just purchased a set of pads and carry them as spares. My trailer came with 8K Dexter so there you go.
My experience with the Dexter brakes has been all good. I've replaced the first set of pads at 20,000 miles but they were only 40% worn according to the MOR/ryde tech. Replaced 'em anyhow. I have over 62,000 miles on the brakes with two pad replacements. Neither replacement was "required" but I did it anyhow due to where we were headed. In addition to pads I do carry a spare caliper assembly just because I like to have spares, period. Overkill, but I do that. Pads and the like are not that expensive and "they don't require refridgeration." :) You will use them.
Either way, hydralic discs are the way to go. You won't be disapointed if you plan to actually travel with the rig.
Safe travels
Bill
-- Edited by Bill and Linda on Friday 23rd of December 2011 05:00:20 PM
Jack Mayer said
07:52 PM Dec 23, 2011
The problem with Kodiak brakes is that they are not as large as Dexters. Does it matter? Likely not. I can lock up tires with Kodiaks (I had them on my 21K Royals International) or with Dexters. But New Horizons dropped Kodiaks because they had a lot of issues with them. I never did, but I would prefer the Dexter since it is a better brake system, IMO. No issue with pads....how often do you need pads? Once every 5 years? Easy to carry an extra set.
Will NH put on Kodiaks if you ask? Maybe....but I'm sure they will try to disuade you, since the Dexters are standard if you order discs.
Kerry, I have a pretty nice New Horizons for sale....take a look on my website here.
If you buy a New Horizons it will have Dexter disc brakes on it not Kodiak. And yes, they will help you stop a LOT....unless they fail or the myriad of things that can go wrong with an electric/hydraulic setup happens. Things do fail, but if they do not, and you have a properly adjusted controller then you should have decent braking.
If you have NH questions (on my rig or on any NH) feel free to email me.
Kerry,
Jo and I own a 2010 Mobile Suites 38TKSB3 with a GVWR of 18,500 lbs. As for weight on the New Horizons, I've "heard" that their GVWR is around 21,000 lbs.
Our Ford F450 is a 2008, which means it still has the 19.5" wheels and the heavier GVWR at 14,500 lbs. Then newer ones have 17" wheels (thus smaller brakes) and are rated something like 13,050 lbs GVWR. That lower weight for the GVWR might be a factor with the pin weight of a New Horizons.
Also, even though the Kodiak brakes are good brakes, if there is a failure, I would really be leary of a newer F450 with the smaller brakes. Should there be a trailer brake failure, I sure wouldn't want to be on a major grade or be in a panic stop mode.
If you went with a F450 weighing 13,000 lbs loaded and had a 21,000 lbs trailer, your gross weight would be 34,000 lbs and the F450's Gross Combined Weight Rating is only 33,000 lbs. Since most people like their truck to have some "cushion" in regards to weight, the above combination would have no cushion, and in fact, would probably be overweight.
For as heavy as the New Horizons are, I would go with no less than an MDT. While the F450 is "technically" an MDT, it is at the low end of that category.
Jack Mayer, who posted just ahead of me, has a New Horizons and he is pulling his with an HDT. When we were looking and looked at an MDT (SportsChassis - mini-Freightliner), that one as used was $90,000 and a new one was $125,000 to $135,000. One could buy a used HDT and convert it to a tow vehicle for a lot less than that, plus have an engine with a lot more potential life in it.
Terry
-- Edited by Terry and Jo on Thursday 22nd of December 2011 08:55:33 PM
Concerning the brakes, i.e. “Electric over Hydraulic Disc” (Dexter in my case): They will stop you. The difference between these and the old style magnet / drum brakes is daylight and dark. My trailer alone will stop the trailer and the truck without truck brakes. Not recommended but said to emphasize the point concerning the trailer brakes and not the need, or not, for an MDT / HDT. IMO all larger (like over 15,000lb) trailers should have these as standard equipment. Smaller trailers should have them as well if you can get them and afford the additional costs. They are that good.
Also, the MOR/ryde “IS” is well worth the money. We upgraded to it a few years ago. Another daylight and dark comparison between it and any type of “spring” suspension regardless of the air bag system between the springs. It’s just that much better than any “metal spring based” system – even my DW noticed the vast improvement in the way the rig didn’t move around nor jar the tow vehicle. We've pulled both types.
FWIW I would take a look at the rig Jack has available. I don’t think you will be disappointed.
Safe travels
Bill
A New Horizons in the 40' range is going to be around 21-22K lbs loaded for fulltiming. Maybe a touch more. My 42' with all our "stuff" is under 23K lbs. And we have LOTS of stuff... :) It will vary, of course, depending on YOUR stuff....
Never buy a new 5th wheel without disc brakes. No exceptions. As Bill said - night and day difference, and far more reliable. Also, Mor/Ryde IS is the finest suspension on the market - in MY opinion. I have had it on 3 rigs. I could put air ride on any of the rigs I have built, but I stick to MR IS. Tires, brakes and running gear is NOT the place to skimp or save money.
If anyone wants to discuss the merits of an HDT vs other tow vehicles let me know. I'll give you an honest assessment based on your needs/circumstances. They are not for evveryone, but they have some huge advantages....probably things that most people would not think about. If a group wants to have an unofficial chat on that topic at the April Rally we can do that over adult beverages. I won't be doing any presentations on that topic, but I'm always available to talk about it.
Jack:
I think the HDT / MDT truck discussion “over some refreshments” is a great idea. But we should consider as well the educational process for those that may not know concerning weight rating and what all those letters really mean: Like RAWR, FAWR, GVWR, etc. ‘Kind of a follow on to the Howard “official” presentation on tires and safety, etc.
I agree with you that HDT’s are great (as are some MDT’s), loved ‘em when I drove one. But they are not for everyone and in some cases are just not needed unless simply desired. It depends and education is the best way to know. So really understanding the manufacture’s ratings and what they all mean might really be a good thing for those just beginning or considering upgrades in the future.
We’ll see what develops in Kerrville . . .
Bill
Sure is, IMO, as to a place to ask the question. I belived that is correct as pertains to Kodiak vs Dexter pads. However, as I have Dexter I just purchased a set of pads and carry them as spares. My trailer came with 8K Dexter so there you go.
My experience with the Dexter brakes has been all good. I've replaced the first set of pads at 20,000 miles but they were only 40% worn according to the MOR/ryde tech. Replaced 'em anyhow. I have over 62,000 miles on the brakes with two pad replacements. Neither replacement was "required" but I did it anyhow due to where we were headed. In addition to pads I do carry a spare caliper assembly just because I like to have spares, period. Overkill, but I do that. Pads and the like are not that expensive and "they don't require refridgeration." :) You will use them.
Either way, hydralic discs are the way to go. You won't be disapointed if you plan to actually travel with the rig.
Safe travels
Bill
-- Edited by Bill and Linda on Friday 23rd of December 2011 05:00:20 PM
Will NH put on Kodiaks if you ask? Maybe....but I'm sure they will try to disuade you, since the Dexters are standard if you order discs.