In April 2010 after several years of research and six RVfactory tours, my wife and I bought a new Drv Mobile Suites 38RESB4 and a 2010 Ford F450. Our second choice of the six RVs was a Carriage Carri-Lite. During the factory tours I discussed owners' issues I had read about on the Mobile Suites RV Club and Carriage Travel Club websites with the respective factory reps. As a result, despite Carriage's two year warranty versus Drv's one year warranty, we bought a Drv.
Several warranty issues greeted us when we stopped for fuel after the first 50 miles of our maiden voyage. We experienced several more issues in the first couple weeks; however, Drv stood behind their product and resolved the problems to our satisfaction. Five months later we found it necessary to sell our "home on wheels" because of family health issues. Almost a year later, because we enjoyed the RV lifestyle so much, we are once again in the market for a 5th wheel and tow vehicle. Much has changed during the year and we are soliciting advise based on personal experience and satisfaction/dissatisfaction with your RV and tow vehicle.
Once again we are considering Drv and after meeting with a new Carriage factory representative, we are giving Carriage a fresh look. It has also been suggested we also look at NuWa and Excel. Last night, I was reading Howard's journal entry for February 4, 20011 and came across a link to Bob Zagami's RV Insights blog. In the archives I found an interesting January 4, 2011 article -- "Can the industry support all these fifth-wheel manufactures?" Following Zagami's article were 17 readers' comments that I found extremely interesting. One in particular voiced his dismay over buying a 2009 Carriage Royal Monarch which he unfortunately found to be an "$180k lemon" that to date, had "more than 45 defects that have made full-time RV'ing a nightmare. Worst of all?... customer service and willingness to stand behind the product! Communication with the factory is horrible and frustrating. I expected much, much more when spending this kind of money."
Much has changed regarding towing capacity, engine braking and technology with the 2011 model Ford F450 and the GM 3500 over previous years models. It has been suggested that maybe a 2011 F350 will now do the job. I have read several articles and forum discussions and I am really confused as to which direction to go. What are the costs, availability, other issues and personal experiences with the new urea requirement?
Help!!! I do not want a "lemon" or a "RVing nightmare"!!! I want something that is safe and dependable.
Steve C
Jack Mayer said
10:48 AM Mar 14, 2011
Unfortunately, IMO there is no definitive answer to this. All manufacturers build units with issues. The question is how are you supported after the delivery. You will find horror stories from every manufacturer. Personally, when we were looking 1.5 years ago Carriage was not on our list....and we owned a Royals International at the time. DRV was on the list, and we were looking at an Elite Suite. We ended up buying a custom built New Horizons for approximately the same money.
If you would like to read about our experience with the New Horizon look on our website here.
While the New Horizon is not perfect, it is very good, and we are more than satisfied with it. After fulltiming for 11 years in first a Newmar, then a Royals International, and now the New Horizon, I will say that this is by far the nicest and most comfortable rig we have owned. But you would expect that - since we designed it just for us. That is the biggest advantage of the NH - EVERYTHING is custom.
Just something else to consider.
If you expect a perfect rig you will be disappointed in any manufacturer. The RV industry is just not at the point of the auto industry. Not even close. And for the most part, the build quality of low and medium-level rigs is pretty poor. As is the materials used. But everything is a trade-off in an RV. Ask yourself this question...if the rig has lots of amenities and flash and high-end look then what was compromised elsewhere to attain that at the pricepoint you are looking at. There is no free ride; you pretty much get what you pay for.
Steve C said
07:06 PM Mar 14, 2011
Thanks Jack for your response. I will consider New Horizon this time around and look into it further via personal email. I did want to say I contacted Carriage and got a very quick and appropriate response to my concerns from Glenn Cushman, owner of Carriage. Later in the RV Insights blog the complaining individual stated that he had initiated lemon law action against Carriage. I was assured that this had never been the case and was cautioned that anyone can say anything on a blog.
Does anyone have a list of the states when lemon laws apply to RVs?
Steve
Terry and Jo said
08:39 PM Mar 14, 2011
Steve,
I would be careful on that one. If I remember Jack's posts correctly, the New Horizon is built in Kansas and there are no dealers, just the factory. IF that is true, then Kansas' Lemon Law doesn't seem to apply to vehicles over 12,000 lbs.
Here is a link to the Kansas information on an independent website:
Good luck in the renewed process of research and purchasing.
Terry
Jack Mayer said
10:52 AM Mar 15, 2011
I'm not sure what Lemon Laws have to do with New Horizons.
As far as I know, Lemon Laws of most states do not apply to RVs. They may in some states, though. And, again IMO, utilizing this against a manufacturer is a very last resort, akin to suing them. IF it applies and you use it you are done with interaction with the manufacturer.
Most RV issues that can't be easily resolved at the dealer network level are best resolved by dealing directly with the manufacturer, on a factual basis, and documenting everything. Getting angry will not help, although it can be frustrating sometimes dealing with repair facilities. And utilizing an attorney is IMO the worst thing you can do - because once you do that the manufacturer will usually never talk to you again, and there is zero chance of getting the problems resolved in a timely fashion. You will be dealing with the manufacturers law firm and courts. For a long time. However, sometimes it becomes necessary.
Bill and Linda said
03:14 PM Mar 15, 2011
Jack Mayer wrote:
I'm not sure what Lemon Laws have to do with New Horizons.
As far as I know, Lemon Laws of most states do not apply to RVs. They may in some states, though. And, again IMO, utilizing this against a manufacturer is a very last resort, akin to suing them. IF it applies and you use it you are done with interaction with the manufacturer.
Most RV issues that can't be easily resolved at the dealer network level are best resolved by dealing directly with the manufacturer, on a factual basis, and documenting everything. Getting angry will not help, although it can be frustrating sometimes dealing with repair facilities. And utilizing an attorney is IMO the worst thing you can do - because once you do that the manufacturer will usually never talk to you again, and there is zero chance of getting the problems resolved in a timely fashion. You will be dealing with the manufacturers law firm and courts. For a long time. However, sometimes it becomes necessary.
I could not agree more with Jack on the point of not resorting to the courts.If that is your backup plan,IMO best to sell the rig and “start over” because, as Jack says, any “relationship” at any level with the dealer or manufacture is now via the attorneys.With due respect to Howard, that’s not a good person to be talking with for true resolution of issues.You want the rig fixed, not litigated.
All of this is opinion, but I think New Horizons and NuWA, who basically have no dealer network, should be less of a concern for people who can travel than for those who are more “fixed” in one location. Fixed due to employment or other personal issues which make travel to the middle of the US an issue and problematic.
Although we have a local dealer, really nice people, after the PDI the 5’er has never been back on their property including back when we were working fulltime.All work has been done at the factory (KZ in Shipshewana, IN) and we have been extremely pleased with their service. Yes, our rig had some issues, they ALL DO. But KZ went well beyond our expectations to make everything correct to our full satisfaction. All that said, if you can’t travel to the factory, then other factors come into play and perhaps the local dealer is more important.But if you are free to get to the factory they almost always do a better job, have all the “special” parts, and will probably do other “little things” you want done while you’re there.Sometimes for free.That has been our experience.
I know Steve knows our story. But I just thought this perspective might be of interest to other readers in making their decisions.
Safe travels to all.
Bill
Jack Mayer said
12:36 PM Mar 16, 2011
Just so people know....the way New Horizons handles warranty work for those that can not get back to the factory is pretty generous.
Any certified RV service person can work on it (including mobile repair people), and New Horizon will pay the bill DIRECTLY. You do have to get approval first, which is only reasonable. You do NOT have to take it back to the factory.
DorisandDave said
04:15 PM Mar 16, 2011
Steve, We HAVE a 2010 Mobile Suites 38RSSB3 and couldn't be happier with it! We have had some minor (very minor) issues since we have lived in it full time since last june.
We have lived in it throught the coldest Kansas winter since moving here in 91 and came out of it with flying colors.
Doris
-- Edited by DorisandDave on Wednesday 16th of March 2011 04:16:04 PM
soos said
10:08 PM Apr 1, 2011
Steve, I'll be interested to hear what you finally decide to do. we are in the market for a new 5th wheel as well and have narrowed our choices to Carriage Carri-lite, Hitchhiker and Mobile Suites. We thought about Excel and New Horizon but we honestly didn't want to have to make too many decisions ourselves, at least this time around. We have looked at quite a few Mobile Suites and are making the trek up to Kansas and IN to tour all the factories. Tomorrow we are checking out another Carri-lite. As I am sure you know, every time we go see one, we learn something new. Hitchhiker seems to be the most difficult to find "out there" so we'll see them at the factory when we get there.
Good luck!
Sue
Steve C said
11:23 AM Apr 2, 2011
Hi Sue,
On Thursday, we looked at a new Carri-Lite and pretty much ruled Carriage out. I cannot stand up in most of the bedroom and the recliners will not support my legs. The wood quality in the cabinets did not, IMHO, match the Mobile Suite. We are now trying to find time to make a factory trip to Kansas and Indiana.
I have put the house on the market and have been getting some prices on a new Mobile Suite from several different dealers; although, we were very happy with Southern RV in Jonesboro, Ga where we bought before. Just want to make sure we are getting a competitive price.
I agree with Bill that the best place to have service and/or warranty work is at the factory. I was more that pleased with DRV before. I have read of some people that were not and have gotten a personal email from a DRV owner that was not as pleased I was.
If you are going to Kansas, if it were me, I would at least go by New Horizons and visit. I would also go on Jack Mayer's website and read about his experience. It will be well worth your while no matter what you decide to buy. I was especially interested in his decision to put in a dishwasher and residential gas cook-top. I talked with DRV and I can do the cook-top like Jack has. I did not ask about the dishwasher. Jack found that he used less water with the dishwasher than he did washing dishes by hand. Jack is a great person to talk to as he has been full-timing over ten years and has done it with several different vehicles.
Still have my homework to do on truck selection. New GM 3500 HD seems to be a better haul/tow vehicle than a new F-350. I recently read a thread that reported that 100% of all single rear wheel trucks tested were hauling weights above the limit and, I think, 60% of the dual rear wheel trucks had loads above the GCVW limit. That may force me to go the F-450 route again. On the DRV website is a link to a Trailer Life article featuring the 2011 Chevy 3500 HD pulling a Mobile Suite. Bill, above, also sent me a link to a independent test on the Ford F-350 and GM 3500 HD that has got me thinking GM for the first time.
Send me a personal email and I will give you my phone number or call you and I will let you know what I am finding this time around.
Steve, I just sent you a PM. In a nutshell, my husband retired after 30 years with Ford Customer Service Engineering, and knows a fair amount about Ford Pick up trucks etc. We test drove a 2011 F350 dually and he was extremely impressed. He can tell you about the urea, which he says is a system that works well, etc. We looked at the Carri-lite today and there was a lot I liked about it but mostly it comes down to quality of build and we won't know that until we go to the factories.
Sue
Steve C said
02:13 PM Apr 2, 2011
Evin and I have been to factory tours at KZ, Keystone, Carriage, Heartland, Open Range and DRV. It was an eye-opening experience. Bought a DRV and still had some issues but was pleased with DRV's handling of the problems. Have had contacts with individuals that weren't pleased however. One just has to see for themself. Will probably buy another DRV but just want to see what is out there and see Excel, New Horizon
LeslieW said
12:27 AM Apr 3, 2011
If Hitchhiker is on your short list, you might want to check out www.nuwaowners.org. The owner's forum is owned and controlled by owners, with no company control. You'd learn a lot there - both good and bad. Company employees, including the owner, Mike Mitchell, frequently participate. You might have to join the owner's forum to participate, but that is to keep spammers from slamming the forum.
We've been on the road for nearly 4 years, including two trips to Alaska, and still are quite pleased with our Hitchhiker Champagne. The blue Dow foam insulation that NUWA uses makes a huge difference in the sidewall strength and four season comfort.
By our choice, we've generally gone to the factory in Chanute, KS for service and upgrades but they have also covered service at service facilities while on the road (including in Canada). They have been extremely good about warranty work, even years after the "official" warranty had expired. NuWA now sells on a no-haggle price basis both directly from the factory and through some dealer reps.
Good Luck!
LeslieW
Readytogo said
06:17 AM Apr 3, 2011
Sue, If you build a New Horizon you don't have to make too many decisions. You can use one of their floorplans and not change or add anything. Talk to Jack and he can help you select and get the right unit for you.
In April 2010 after several years of research and six RVfactory tours, my wife and I bought a new Drv Mobile Suites 38RESB4 and a 2010 Ford F450. Our second choice of the six RVs was a Carriage Carri-Lite. During the factory tours I discussed owners' issues I had read about on the Mobile Suites RV Club and Carriage Travel Club websites with the respective factory reps. As a result, despite Carriage's two year warranty versus Drv's one year warranty, we bought a Drv.
Several warranty issues greeted us when we stopped for fuel after the first 50 miles of our maiden voyage. We experienced several more issues in the first couple weeks; however, Drv stood behind their product and resolved the problems to our satisfaction. Five months later we found it necessary to sell our "home on wheels" because of family health issues. Almost a year later, because we enjoyed the RV lifestyle so much, we are once again in the market for a 5th wheel and tow vehicle. Much has changed during the year and we are soliciting advise based on personal experience and satisfaction/dissatisfaction with your RV and tow vehicle.
Once again we are considering Drv and after meeting with a new Carriage factory representative, we are giving Carriage a fresh look. It has also been suggested we also look at NuWa and Excel. Last night, I was reading Howard's journal entry for February 4, 20011 and came across a link to Bob Zagami's RV Insights blog. In the archives I found an interesting January 4, 2011 article -- "Can the industry support all these fifth-wheel manufactures?" Following Zagami's article were 17 readers' comments that I found extremely interesting. One in particular voiced his dismay over buying a 2009 Carriage Royal Monarch which he unfortunately found to be an "$180k lemon" that to date, had "more than 45 defects that have made full-time RV'ing a nightmare. Worst of all?... customer service and willingness to stand behind the product! Communication with the factory is horrible and frustrating. I expected much, much more when spending this kind of money."
Much has changed regarding towing capacity, engine braking and technology with the 2011 model Ford F450 and the GM 3500 over previous years models. It has been suggested that maybe a 2011 F350 will now do the job. I have read several articles and forum discussions and I am really confused as to which direction to go. What are the costs, availability, other issues and personal experiences with the new urea requirement?
Help!!! I do not want a "lemon" or a "RVing nightmare"!!! I want something that is safe and dependable.
Steve C
If you would like to read about our experience with the New Horizon look on our website here.
While the New Horizon is not perfect, it is very good, and we are more than satisfied with it. After fulltiming for 11 years in first a Newmar, then a Royals International, and now the New Horizon, I will say that this is by far the nicest and most comfortable rig we have owned. But you would expect that - since we designed it just for us. That is the biggest advantage of the NH - EVERYTHING is custom.
Just something else to consider.
If you expect a perfect rig you will be disappointed in any manufacturer. The RV industry is just not at the point of the auto industry. Not even close. And for the most part, the build quality of low and medium-level rigs is pretty poor. As is the materials used. But everything is a trade-off in an RV. Ask yourself this question...if the rig has lots of amenities and flash and high-end look then what was compromised elsewhere to attain that at the pricepoint you are looking at. There is no free ride; you pretty much get what you pay for.
Does anyone have a list of the states when lemon laws apply to RVs?
Steve
I would be careful on that one. If I remember Jack's posts correctly, the New Horizon is built in Kansas and there are no dealers, just the factory. IF that is true, then Kansas' Lemon Law doesn't seem to apply to vehicles over 12,000 lbs.
Here is a link to the Kansas information on an independent website:
http://www.carlemon.com/lemon/KS_LemonGuide.html
And here is that site's home page, where you can pick and choose your state of interest:
http://www.carlemon.com/
Good luck in the renewed process of research and purchasing.
Terry
I could not agree more with Jack on the point of not resorting to the courts. If that is your backup plan,IMO best to sell the rig and “start over” because, as Jack says, any “relationship” at any level with the dealer or manufacture is now via the attorneys. With due respect to Howard, that’s not a good person to be talking with for true resolution of issues. You want the rig fixed, not litigated.
All of this is opinion, but I think New Horizons and NuWA, who basically have no dealer network, should be less of a concern for people who can travel than for those who are more “fixed” in one location. Fixed due to employment or other personal issues which make travel to the middle of the US an issue and problematic.
Although we have a local dealer, really nice people, after the PDI the 5’er has never been back on their property including back when we were working fulltime. All work has been done at the factory (KZ in Shipshewana, IN) and we have been extremely pleased with their service. Yes, our rig had some issues, they ALL DO. But KZ went well beyond our expectations to make everything correct to our full satisfaction.
All that said, if you can’t travel to the factory, then other factors come into play and perhaps the local dealer is more important. But if you are free to get to the factory they almost always do a better job, have all the “special” parts, and will probably do other “little things” you want done while you’re there. Sometimes for free. That has been our experience.
I know Steve knows our story. But I just thought this perspective might be of interest to other readers in making their decisions.
Safe travels to all.
Bill
We HAVE a 2010 Mobile Suites 38RSSB3 and couldn't be happier with it! We have had some minor (very minor) issues since we have lived in it full time since last june.
We have lived in it throught the coldest Kansas winter since moving here in 91 and came out of it with flying colors.
Doris
-- Edited by DorisandDave on Wednesday 16th of March 2011 04:16:04 PM
I'll be interested to hear what you finally decide to do.
we are in the market for a new 5th wheel as well and have narrowed our choices to Carriage Carri-lite, Hitchhiker and Mobile Suites.
We thought about Excel and New Horizon but we honestly didn't want to have to make too many decisions ourselves, at least this time around.
We have looked at quite a few Mobile Suites and are making the trek up to Kansas and IN to tour all the factories.
Tomorrow we are checking out another Carri-lite. As I am sure you know, every time we go see one, we learn something new.
Hitchhiker seems to be the most difficult to find "out there" so we'll see them at the factory when we get there.
Good luck!
Sue
Hi Sue,
On Thursday, we looked at a new Carri-Lite and pretty much ruled Carriage out. I cannot stand up in most of the bedroom and the recliners will not support my legs. The wood quality in the cabinets did not, IMHO, match the Mobile Suite. We are now trying to find time to make a factory trip to Kansas and Indiana.
I have put the house on the market and have been getting some prices on a new Mobile Suite from several different dealers; although, we were very happy with Southern RV in Jonesboro, Ga where we bought before. Just want to make sure we are getting a competitive price.
I agree with Bill that the best place to have service and/or warranty work is at the factory. I was more that pleased with DRV before. I have read of some people that were not and have gotten a personal email from a DRV owner that was not as pleased I was.
If you are going to Kansas, if it were me, I would at least go by New Horizons and visit. I would also go on Jack Mayer's website and read about his experience. It will be well worth your while no matter what you decide to buy. I was especially interested in his decision to put in a dishwasher and residential gas cook-top. I talked with DRV and I can do the cook-top like Jack has. I did not ask about the dishwasher. Jack found that he used less water with the dishwasher than he did washing dishes by hand. Jack is a great person to talk to as he has been full-timing over ten years and has done it with several different vehicles.
Still have my homework to do on truck selection. New GM 3500 HD seems to be a better haul/tow vehicle than a new F-350. I recently read a thread that reported that 100% of all single rear wheel trucks tested were hauling weights above the limit and, I think, 60% of the dual rear wheel trucks had loads above the GCVW limit. That may force me to go the F-450 route again. On the DRV website is a link to a Trailer Life article featuring the 2011 Chevy 3500 HD pulling a Mobile Suite. Bill, above, also sent me a link to a independent test on the Ford F-350 and GM 3500 HD that has got me thinking GM for the first time.
Send me a personal email and I will give you my phone number or call you and I will let you know what I am finding this time around.
Steve C
Just got that link from Bill. It is: http://news.pickuptrucks.com/2010/11/chevy-vs-ford-in-heavy-duty-rumble-in-the-rockies.html I think you will find the results of interest.
Steve
I just sent you a PM.
In a nutshell, my husband retired after 30 years with Ford Customer Service Engineering, and knows a fair amount about Ford Pick up trucks etc.
We test drove a 2011 F350 dually and he was extremely impressed. He can tell you about the urea, which he says is a system that works well, etc.
We looked at the Carri-lite today and there was a lot I liked about it but mostly it comes down to quality of build and we won't know that until we go to the factories.
Sue
We've been on the road for nearly 4 years, including two trips to Alaska, and still are quite pleased with our Hitchhiker Champagne. The blue Dow foam insulation that NUWA uses makes a huge difference in the sidewall strength and four season comfort.
By our choice, we've generally gone to the factory in Chanute, KS for service and upgrades but they have also covered service at service facilities while on the road (including in Canada). They have been extremely good about warranty work, even years after the "official" warranty had expired. NuWA now sells on a no-haggle price basis both directly from the factory and through some dealer reps.
Good Luck!
LeslieW
Sue, If you build a New Horizon you don't have to make too many decisions. You can use one of their floorplans and not change or add anything. Talk to Jack and he can help you select and get the right unit for you.