I'm currently shopping for a truck to pull a 13,250lb [advertised dry weight] 5th wheel. I want to buy one used - probably ~ a 2006. I've read previous posts about needing to add for liquids and personal belongings so I'm using 16,000lbs as a "target" minimum towing capacity needed. Based on this target, I think that I need a Ford due to its higher tow ratings (vs. GMC or Chevy - don't want a Dodge). This leads me to shopping for either a properly geared F350, or any F450 or F550 (per tow ratings found in TrailerLife.com). The 450's & 550's have even higher capacities than I need. My inclination is to opt for the F450 or F550 to give me even more breathing room on capacity and not max out or flirt with overloading a F350.
My question is this - are there disadvantages in going to a F450 or F550 vs. a F350?
[I've read & carefully considered the MDT option but don't think that they're for us].
Thanks again for any & all advice.
Terry and Jo said
10:58 PM May 24, 2009
Bob,
I don't know if you read the posting that was titled, "Tow Vehicle Research Results" or not, but here is a link to it. It is also in the Tow Vehicles category of the forum.
In addition, below is a link that I think will take you to a site to get an Adobe file of the 2009 Ford Super Duty Trucks brochure. At the Ford site, look under the small picture of the pickup to see a link for the brochure itself.
Now, to specifically address your question. My wife and I are looking at getting a Doubletree Mobile Suites unit that has a GVWR of about 18,500 pounds. That unit would absolutely require at least the Ford F450 because of that weight. However, at the Spring Oklahoma CIty RV Show, we went to look at units to see what we might would like, provided that we couldn't afford the Doubletree or if it took longer for our home to sell.
We liked a Cedar Creek 36 foot unit that would have been $20,000 less than the Doubletree. That unit weighed in at a GVWR of around 15,500 pounds. While I had the hope that the lighter Cedar Creek could be pulled by the F350, I found out otherwise. In my looking at the brochure, the F350 was not really up to my standards to avoid the "pucker factor" while descending a mountain pass. A dual rear wheel F350 regular cab could pull 16,300 lbs, a club cab F350 would pull 15,900, and a Crew Cab F350 (our particular choice) would only pull 15,800 pounds. I'm not crazy about having only about 300 to 400 pounds of extra capacity.
Also, the F350 suffers greater problems when comparing Gross COMBINED Vehicle Weight ratings. Unless you went with the 4:30 rear end WITH the Tow Boss Package, your GCVW would only be 23,000 pounds. Thus the faster rear end would leave you with 7000 pounds for an allowable GVWR on the towing vehicle.
By going to the F350 WIth the 4:30 rear end and the Tow Boss Package, the GCWR would bump up to 26,000 pounds. The F450 (not available in regular cab or club cab) Crew Cab already comes with the 4:30 rear end and allows a towing weight of 24,600 pounds for 2WD and 24,200 pounds for 4WD. Both have a GCVW rating of 33,000 pounds, which allows a lot more capacity (and safety factor) allowing for both tow vehicle and trailer weight.
As for the Ford F550, when I was researching that size of vehicle, its weight ratings weren't as good as the F450. I can't find a link on Ford's website for a F550 brochure, so I can't say whether the 2009 units are improved in weight capacity or not. For 2008, however, the F450 showed to be the best of the two models.
I hope this doesn't overwhelm you with numbers and specifics. I have been researching RV's (motorhome vs fifth wheel), Heavy duty truck (HDT) towing units, medium duty truck (MDT) towing units, and of course the more common dual rear wheel (dually) pickup trucks. For me and my wife, the F450 seems to be the best both in the category of capability and in price. While some HDT's bought used and converted for fifth wheel pulling could be cheaper, I'm not crazy about their size and visibility problems. (I used to drive the things for a living.)
Good luck in your research and enjoy the ride. Howard and Linda's website is an extremely valuable source of information, both from Howard and Linda and from the forum members.
Have fun.
Terry
-- Edited by Terry and Jo on Sunday 24th of May 2009 10:59:13 PM
-- Edited by Terry and Jo on Sunday 24th of May 2009 11:08:18 PM
Judy said
08:19 AM May 25, 2009
Hi Bob...we have an Elite Suites by Double Tree we pull with an F-550. Our Elite Suites fully loaded weighs almost 20,000 lbs. We added a Banks exhaust brake system which is great for coming down hills. The biggest thing to look at is your pin weight. Always figure 25 % of your GVWR. Which ours is almost 5000 lbs. Not all trucks can carry 5000 lb cargo in the bed of they're truck. We have weighted time and time again and have full timed for 3 yrs now. We did not want to go to one of those MDT's either and at least I do drive the F-550. southwesjudy
Jack Mayer said
10:05 AM May 25, 2009
The key is to buy more truck than you think you need. Unless you are only vacationing and know that you will stay with a light trailer, I would always recommend getting the most truck you feel you can live with. It sounds like an F450 will do the job for you.
One key to truck selection is to NOT USE the manufacturer "towing" numbers. Figure it back from the GCWR. Use the GVWR of the trailer and that will tell you what the truck and its load of "stuff" can weigh (subtract it from the GCWR). Just ask other fulltimers what their trucks weigh loaded. Once you add extra fuel tanks, all the things you carry, etc, the truck will weigh far more than what the manuf. uses as an average weight to come up with those "towing capacity" numbers. Then you need to make sure that the rear axle is not overloaded. That will not be a problem with an F450, but could be a factor on lighter duty trucks.
Dixie said
12:02 PM May 25, 2009
Hi
What does "Pucker Factor" mean? Does anyone know what the difference in a Ford 450
vs. a Ford 550? What kind of Banks systems are added to them to preform better and does it work, is it recommended?
Thanks
Dixie
Luvglass said
01:52 PM May 25, 2009
The 350 is OK, as long as you stay in the parameters you mentioned. We are pulling a Cameo that's just over 16,300# now with the 4:30 rear and are very satisfied with the trucks performance. We've been over the Rockies a number of times without incident.
Dixie, the pucker factor is what your sphincter does when the hill ahead is steeper than you think you can handle.
Fred
Tim & Robyn said
02:02 PM May 25, 2009
Banks system: I've seen things here and there about whether or not adding this stuff will void warranties. I'd rather get enough truck to do the job without having to spend more money tricking it out with gadgets....
Pucker factor: Very delicately put, Fred. Another way of putting it is do you want to carry a change of underwear and toilet paper in the cab of your truck to use if you DO make it to the bottom of that steep hill in one piece?...
Judy said
02:37 PM May 25, 2009
The Banks exhaust brake, is for ones safety. Banks makes many things for trucks. Going down the Ca. hills it worked great! I do think Dodge trucks may have it already on their trucks. southwestjudy
Terry and Jo said
03:32 PM May 25, 2009
Bob,
In reference to the F450 Ford, I have never been able to find a Banks or other exhaust brake system that is made for the truck. However, Ford has a "Tow/Haul" feature as a part of the transmission that accomplishes the same benefit of slowing the truck and trailer on downhill slopes.
People that I have communicated with say the Tow/Haul feature works really well. If I remember right, when one starts down a steep slope, one taps the brake once to engage the feature of "system braking". All of that saves wear and tear on one's pickup and trailer brakes.
I promise to not use phrases like "pucker factor" in the future. I forget that many ladies use this forum. Sorry for confusing anyone and thanks to the two that explained it quite well for me.
Terry
Luvglass said
07:54 PM May 25, 2009
Terry explained the tow haul feature very well and it works very well for us. We've had no problems at all on the really long mountain downgrades. Hardly ever have to tap the brakes.
thebearII said
09:02 AM May 26, 2009
In our RV, "pucker factor" means the wife grabs the dash and gets the deer in headlights look as we crest the mountain to start down the other side.
The whiter her knuckles and wider her eyes are.... the higher the pucker factor is.
flyone said
11:59 AM May 26, 2009
Fred are you saying that your trucks braking system and that of your trailer are sufficeint to handle the load on a long down grade and most of the time you don't have to use the Tow/Haul system to handle your set up? Just asking--I intend to upgrade tow vehichles some day and I want to make sure I'm able to stop--I can get a truck that will pull just about anything-- its the stopping that concerns me the most.
Flyone
thebearII said
01:05 PM May 26, 2009
Flyone,
In the past, I've had two different chevy pickups to tow my 5th wheel with, a 2500 4x4 and a 3500 crewcab dually. Neither one had enough engine compression to hold back the trailer without going into second or low and still using the brakes to keep from over revving.
A friend tows a similar 5th wheel with a Ford F-250 and he rarely has to hit his brakes going down hill.
Both of my trucks and his are gas engined.
It seems the Ford engines and transmissions are better at compression than Chevy.
My new Chevy 4500 has an exhaust brake. I rarely have to hit the brakes even on a steep downhill.
My biggest fear with the two other trucks was stopping in time if someone or something got in my way going downhill. With the 4500, I no longer have that fear. It stops great.
Luvglass said
03:54 PM May 26, 2009
flyone wrote:
Fred are you saying that your trucks braking system and that of your trailer are sufficeint to handle the load on a long down grade and most of the time you don't have to use the Tow/Haul system to handle your set up? Just asking--I intend to upgrade tow vehichles some day and I want to make sure I'm able to stop--I can get a truck that will pull just about anything-- its the stopping that concerns me the most.
Flyone
Hi Flyone,
When ever I tow, the truck is in the tow/haul mode. The T/H setting changes the shift points when accelerating and applies down shifting automatically when decelerating. My owners manual states that you should always have it in tow/haul when towing.
As someone mentioned earlier, you just tap the brakes as you start going down hill and the truck automatically downshifts as necessary. On really steep grades I have to apply the brakes occasionally, but not often.
Fred
Judy said
09:48 AM May 27, 2009
Just one more question on this subject....are we talking here about ENGINE Brake or Exhaust Brake or both? Just wondering. southwestjudy
Terry and Jo said
11:54 AM May 27, 2009
Judy,
In a sense, we are speaking of three different systems.
An engine brake is a braking system used primarily on semi-trucks or other large vehicles that modifies engine valve operation to use engine compression to slow the vehicle. They are also known as compression release engine brakes. A Jake brake is an example of a compression brake.
An exhaust brake is a means of slowing a diesel engine by closing off the exhaust path from the engine, causing the exhaust gases to be compressed in the exhaust manifold, and in the cylinder. Since the exhaust is being compressed, and there is no fuel being applied, the engine works backwards, slowing down the vehicle. I think the Banks system is an exhaust brake system.
However, when I researched a system to use either engine braking or exhaust braking, I couldn't find anything that fit the Ford (specifically the F450, due to its towing capacity and GCVW ratings). I had heard that perhaps the transmission on a Ford worked as a braking mechanism instead of having to rely on vehicle wheel brakes. I was pleased to read in the Ford brochure that, indeed, the Ford transmission worked in that fashion when in "Tow/Haul" mode.
From the Ford Superduty brochure: Torqueshift 5-speed automatic has a massive torque converter and strong gear sets. Its selectable Tow/Haul Mode adjusts transmission operation to match towing and hauling demand. This reduces gear hunting, improves power delivery, and engages engine braking to help control vehicle speed when descending hills. The TorqShift transmission is available on any Super Duty.
Terry
Mallo said
12:22 PM May 29, 2009
You say at the end that you don't consider the MDT to be an option.
Yet the F450, 550 are both MDT.
Mallo
Terry and Jo said
12:47 PM May 29, 2009
Mallo,
I have to confess that I can only speak for myself, but I have found that what I considered to be MDT's all had a maximum GVWR of around 26,000 pounds. The new 2009 Ford Superduty brochure shows the F450 to have a maximum GVWR of 14,500 pounds.
Perhaps I need to rethink trucks, but I see the F450 to be more like a Heavy Duty pickup.
Terry
Mallo said
08:54 AM Jun 1, 2009
>I have to confess that I can only speak for myself, but I have found that what I >considered to be MDT's all had a maximum GVWR of around 26,000 pounds. The new >2009 Ford Superduty brochure shows the F450 to have a maximum GVWR of 14,500 >pounds.
Good point I double checked the Ford Commercial Trucks page and they're listing the F650 as the first MDT.
My confusion comes from owning an F350 Cab and Chassis rig which the Insurance companies and the state consider a commercial truck and not a pickup at all.
A fast note on the F450.
I find it interesting that the Superduty brochure is saying max GVWR yet the cab and chassis listing at the Ford Commercial Trucks home page is saying max is 16,000. A lot of it does come down to configuration on the larger trucks.
Mallo
I'm going to take back my mea culpa there are multiple sites showing the F450 and like trucks as class four trucks making them medium duty not light duty trucks.
By the way this is a good thing for those of us with heavy towables.
The CAFE rules apply to Light Duty Trucks classes 1, 2 and 3. Not to the medium duty and higher trucks.
Mallo
-- Edited by Mallo on Monday 1st of June 2009 09:33:20 AM
Terry and Jo said
10:26 AM Jun 1, 2009
Mallo,
I hope your assessment is correct as to the classification of the F450. With the government now owning GM and Chrysler, I am concerned that those companies will not be able to continue to build dually pickups.
Plus, I just can't see Toyota, Nissan, or any other foreign manufacturer building the trucks that RVers, farmers and ranchers, plus the construction industry need.
I only hope that my house sells so that Jo and I can make our truck and camper purchases before government messes up everything.
Terry
Mallo said
12:50 PM Jun 1, 2009
Terry,
Everything I'm reading says CAFE applies to Light Duty Trucks which is a definition by the DOT so I take that to be pretty straight forward.
Class 4 which is the start of the Medium Duty Trucks is anything with 14,000 GVWR up to I think 16,000 which is the cut off for Class 5.
As for your concerns about DRW trucks. There is an interesting set of press releases from Nissan. Where they're commiting to the US commercial truck market including cab and chassis trucks built on the standards for that market. They had a proof of concept van at the car shows and laid out the plans for the truck. They're going to be based on the smaller Cummin's engine that was being built for Dodge and using a German transmission.
I hope your assessment is correct as to the classification of the F450. With the government now owning GM and Chrysler, I am concerned that those companies will not be able to continue to build dually pickups.
Plus, I just can't see Toyota, Nissan, or any other foreign manufacturer building the trucks that RVers, farmers and ranchers, plus the construction industry need.
I only hope that my house sells so that Jo and I can make our truck and camper purchases before government messes up everything.
Terry
blackoak99 said
09:49 AM Jul 13, 2009
We have an F450 '08 for sale if you're still interested in buying. Let us know.
Thanks, Tim
Delaine and Lindy said
08:58 PM Jul 14, 2009
I am a firm believer you can't have to much Truck. But a F-450 looks as if it will work for you. Unless you don't mind be over GVWR. A 5er weight of 15,500 is about the cut off for most 1 ton Trucks. GBY......
Luvglass said
09:04 PM Jul 14, 2009
The Ford F350 with the 4:30 rear end is rated to tow up to 18,200#
Judy said
12:08 PM Jul 15, 2009
Fred, Our thinking on this is it is rated that way but its really pushing it. southwestjudy
Luvglass said
12:35 PM Jul 15, 2009
So Judy, you have information and knowledge that the manufacturer doesn't have?
Judy said
03:34 PM Jul 15, 2009
I did not mention anything about the manufacturer's just that we have seen very many RV'ers out there pulling some of the very heavy rigs with not enough truck for the rig. Most are maxed to the max. southwestjudy
My question is this - are there disadvantages in going to a F450 or F550 vs. a F350?
[I've read & carefully considered the MDT option but don't think that they're for us].
Thanks again for any & all advice.
I don't know if you read the posting that was titled, "Tow Vehicle Research Results" or not, but here is a link to it. It is also in the Tow Vehicles category of the forum.
http://www.activeboard.com/forum.spark?forumID=91511&p=3&topicID=24513940
In addition, below is a link that I think will take you to a site to get an Adobe file of the 2009 Ford Super Duty Trucks brochure. At the Ford site, look under the small picture of the pickup to see a link for the brochure itself.
https://secure.fordvehicles.com/trucks/superduty/brochures/index.asp#top=3
Now, to specifically address your question. My wife and I are looking at getting a Doubletree Mobile Suites unit that has a GVWR of about 18,500 pounds. That unit would absolutely require at least the Ford F450 because of that weight. However, at the Spring Oklahoma CIty RV Show, we went to look at units to see what we might would like, provided that we couldn't afford the Doubletree or if it took longer for our home to sell.
We liked a Cedar Creek 36 foot unit that would have been $20,000 less than the Doubletree. That unit weighed in at a GVWR of around 15,500 pounds. While I had the hope that the lighter Cedar Creek could be pulled by the F350, I found out otherwise. In my looking at the brochure, the F350 was not really up to my standards to avoid the "pucker factor" while descending a mountain pass. A dual rear wheel F350 regular cab could pull 16,300 lbs, a club cab F350 would pull 15,900, and a Crew Cab F350 (our particular choice) would only pull 15,800 pounds. I'm not crazy about having only about 300 to 400 pounds of extra capacity.
Also, the F350 suffers greater problems when comparing Gross COMBINED Vehicle Weight ratings. Unless you went with the 4:30 rear end WITH the Tow Boss Package, your GCVW would only be 23,000 pounds. Thus the faster rear end would leave you with 7000 pounds for an allowable GVWR on the towing vehicle.
By going to the F350 WIth the 4:30 rear end and the Tow Boss Package, the GCWR would bump up to 26,000 pounds. The F450 (not available in regular cab or club cab) Crew Cab already comes with the 4:30 rear end and allows a towing weight of 24,600 pounds for 2WD and 24,200 pounds for 4WD. Both have a GCVW rating of 33,000 pounds, which allows a lot more capacity (and safety factor) allowing for both tow vehicle and trailer weight.
As for the Ford F550, when I was researching that size of vehicle, its weight ratings weren't as good as the F450. I can't find a link on Ford's website for a F550 brochure, so I can't say whether the 2009 units are improved in weight capacity or not. For 2008, however, the F450 showed to be the best of the two models.
I hope this doesn't overwhelm you with numbers and specifics. I have been researching RV's (motorhome vs fifth wheel), Heavy duty truck (HDT) towing units, medium duty truck (MDT) towing units, and of course the more common dual rear wheel (dually) pickup trucks. For me and my wife, the F450 seems to be the best both in the category of capability and in price. While some HDT's bought used and converted for fifth wheel pulling could be cheaper, I'm not crazy about their size and visibility problems. (I used to drive the things for a living.)
Good luck in your research and enjoy the ride. Howard and Linda's website is an extremely valuable source of information, both from Howard and Linda and from the forum members.
Have fun.
Terry
-- Edited by Terry and Jo on Sunday 24th of May 2009 10:59:13 PM
-- Edited by Terry and Jo on Sunday 24th of May 2009 11:08:18 PM
southwesjudy
Pucker factor: Very delicately put, Fred. Another way of putting it is do you want to carry a change of underwear and toilet paper in the cab of your truck to use if you DO make it to the bottom of that steep hill in one piece?...
southwestjudy
In reference to the F450 Ford, I have never been able to find a Banks or other exhaust brake system that is made for the truck. However, Ford has a "Tow/Haul" feature as a part of the transmission that accomplishes the same benefit of slowing the truck and trailer on downhill slopes.
People that I have communicated with say the Tow/Haul feature works really well. If I remember right, when one starts down a steep slope, one taps the brake once to engage the feature of "system braking". All of that saves wear and tear on one's pickup and trailer brakes.
I promise to not use phrases like "pucker factor" in the future. I forget that many ladies use this forum. Sorry for confusing anyone and thanks to the two that explained it quite well for me.
Terry
Flyone
When ever I tow, the truck is in the tow/haul mode. The T/H setting changes the shift points when accelerating and applies down shifting automatically when decelerating. My owners manual states that you should always have it in tow/haul when towing.
As someone mentioned earlier, you just tap the brakes as you start going down hill and the truck automatically downshifts as necessary. On really steep grades I have to apply the brakes occasionally, but not often.
Fred
southwestjudy
In a sense, we are speaking of three different systems.
An engine brake is a braking system used primarily on semi-trucks or other large vehicles that modifies engine valve operation to use engine compression to slow the vehicle. They are also known as compression release engine brakes. A Jake brake is an example of a compression brake.
An exhaust brake is a means of slowing a diesel engine by closing off the exhaust path from the engine, causing the exhaust gases to be compressed in the exhaust manifold, and in the cylinder. Since the exhaust is being compressed, and there is no fuel being applied, the engine works backwards, slowing down the vehicle. I think the Banks system is an exhaust brake system.
However, when I researched a system to use either engine braking or exhaust braking, I couldn't find anything that fit the Ford (specifically the F450, due to its towing capacity and GCVW ratings). I had heard that perhaps the transmission on a Ford worked as a braking mechanism instead of having to rely on vehicle wheel brakes. I was pleased to read in the Ford brochure that, indeed, the Ford transmission worked in that fashion when in "Tow/Haul" mode.
From the Ford Superduty brochure:
Torqueshift 5-speed automatic has a massive torque converter and strong gear sets. Its selectable Tow/Haul Mode adjusts transmission operation to match towing and hauling demand. This reduces gear hunting, improves power delivery, and engages engine braking to help control vehicle speed when descending hills. The TorqShift transmission is available on any Super Duty.
Terry
You say at the end that you don't consider the MDT to be an option.
Yet the F450, 550 are both MDT.
Mallo
Mallo,
I have to confess that I can only speak for myself, but I have found that what I considered to be MDT's all had a maximum GVWR of around 26,000 pounds. The new 2009 Ford Superduty brochure shows the F450 to have a maximum GVWR of 14,500 pounds.
Perhaps I need to rethink trucks, but I see the F450 to be more like a Heavy Duty pickup.
Terry
Good point I double checked the Ford Commercial Trucks page and they're listing the F650 as the first MDT.
My confusion comes from owning an F350 Cab and Chassis rig which the Insurance companies and the state consider a commercial truck and not a pickup at all.
A fast note on the F450.
I find it interesting that the Superduty brochure is saying max GVWR yet the cab and chassis listing at the Ford Commercial Trucks home page is saying max is 16,000. A lot of it does come down to configuration on the larger trucks.
Mallo
I'm going to take back my mea culpa there are multiple sites showing the F450 and like trucks as class four trucks making them medium duty not light duty trucks.
By the way this is a good thing for those of us with heavy towables.
The CAFE rules apply to Light Duty Trucks classes 1, 2 and 3. Not to the medium duty and higher trucks.
Mallo
-- Edited by Mallo on Monday 1st of June 2009 09:33:20 AM
I hope your assessment is correct as to the classification of the F450. With the government now owning GM and Chrysler, I am concerned that those companies will not be able to continue to build dually pickups.
Plus, I just can't see Toyota, Nissan, or any other foreign manufacturer building the trucks that RVers, farmers and ranchers, plus the construction industry need.
I only hope that my house sells so that Jo and I can make our truck and camper purchases before government messes up everything.
Terry
Thanks,
Tim
southwestjudy
I did not mention anything about the manufacturer's just that we have seen very many RV'ers out there pulling some of the very heavy rigs with not enough truck for the rig. Most are maxed to the max.
southwestjudy