Hey Team: With our full-timing, plan A still on track for next Spring, I'm researching the best truck to pull my eventual 5er. The rig's size mandates a class 4 and a Ford F-450 was tops on my list, UNTIL, I started reading many non-RV blogs and forums where F-450 owners reported massive and expensive problems. I need your comments. The forums only presented the "bad" and the "ugly," with very little "good." Radiators in melt-down, horrible fuel consumption, and unskilled, Ford technicians. Does anyone run a F-450? How about a GM or GMC C4500? I need a balanced perspective and know that all of you will give me your honest and straightforward opinions.
Racerguy said
11:15 PM Nov 6, 2008
For the most part I have found that most of those forums are frequented by people with bad experiences with a particular vehicle. The people that have good luck with theirs seem not to go in to forums and say how happy they are.I'm not saying those people are making up the problems ,just that for each person that has bad luck with one there are many that did not.All brands have some vehicles that for whatever reason just don't perform well. When I bought my Dodge I went to a forum and there were pages and pages of people having nothing but problems. I have had mine for almost a year now and not one problem. There are several on this forum driving F-450's and F- 550's who I'm sure will chime in.
igotjam said
09:43 AM Nov 7, 2008
I've got an 08 F-450 (since Feb 07). I now have 60,000km (I'm Canadian) on it and it has been mostly trouble free. I've only had a couple of cosmetic things go wrong. I like it and would buy another but the fuel mileage is not great. Towing a heavy (20,000lb) 5th wheel I get 6.5 mpg (US Gal) and not pulling 11mpg.
Howard said
10:34 AM Nov 7, 2008
Hi Ann & Steve,
You probably know we run an F450. It is a 2005 and we haven't had a single problem with it.
From what I've read, it sounds like there were problems with them in prior years that got worked out by the time we got ours. I haven't heard much about 2006/2007 models. I have heard that the 2008s are getting poor fuel mileage, but I'm not sure what is causing that.
We get 10 mpg pretty consistently while towing 18,000 pounds and close to 15 mpg when not towing.
Now, we chose the F450 (that size truck) because it was the minimum we needed to tow our rig and because we were inexperienced and didn't know any better.
Knowing what we know now, I'm not sure we would have decided any differently, but we would have certainly considered a bigger truck like an F550, a used Medium Duty Truck like a Freightliner or Peterbilt, or a used Heavy Duty Truck. The cost of a used MDT or HDT is less than a new 450 or 550 and gives much more power and stopping capability.
With having the tow vehicle as our only means of transporation, we still likely would have come back to the 450 or a windows-all-around MDT. We've driven HDTs and I don't like the lack of windows, and the hugeness for driving it by itself or "bobtail" as they all it.
However, had we known from the beginning that we would have gotten a second vehicle like our Jeep Liberty, we would have been more inclined to go with an MDT or HDT. Having the Jeep as our running around and off-road vehicle, a used MDT or HDT would have made a lot more sense if just using it for towing.
I don't like all the clutching and shifting of those big trucks, but you can find them now with the FreedomLine transmission which is almost like an automatic.
"The ZF-FreedomLine transmission is the most advanced, automated manual transmission in North America, featuring the first "no-clutch pedal" design, which makes it easier to learn and operate than competing automated systems."
Linda drove a Peterbilt MDT a couple of years ago with this transmission and loved it. Of course it is more expensive, but more and more used vehicles with this transmission are hitting the market.
I know your question was about F450s and similar sized trucks. But since we have one, I thought I would tell you what we might have done differently - not because of issues with our truck, but more because there were options out there we didn't consider when starting out.
The intent is not just to add to your confusion.
thebearII said
10:36 AM Nov 7, 2008
I have a 2007 Chevrolet Kodiak C4500 crew cab, it was upfitted by Monroe Truck Equipment. Duramax diesel and Allison transmission. The interior has the look and feel of a top of the line Cadillac Escalade with leather, heated seats, entertainment system and trim pieces.
The cab is equipped with air ride, the front seats are air ride and the rear suspension has air bags so the ride is not truck like with the 5th wheel hitched up.
The truck is a great vehicle to tow our 37ft 5th Wheel. It accelerates nicely, climbs hills at reasonable speeds, gets between 10 to 12MPG at 60MPH towing and stops the trailer with ease.
This was my dream truck, it performs well and is a real head turner to boot.
That being said, if I had a chance for a "do over" I would buy a HDT. For the price I paid for the Kodiak I would have been able to pick up a nearly new semi truck with a nice sleeper. It is my understanding the HDTs ride is smoother and of course they have more power so they pull and stop the 5th wheel better.
I chose the Kodiak mainly due to where I have to park it at home and at one of our favorite camp spots. If parking wasn't an issue I would have chosen a HDT.
Terry and Jo said
11:34 AM Nov 7, 2008
Ann and Steve,
I also looked at the Ford F450 because of its capability, if properly equipped, of handling the weight of a luxury fiver. We have been looking at a Doubletree Mobile Suites fiver, and they tend to have a gross weight of around 18000 pounds plus.
I also saw the concerns in forums about the F450 and began to look around. In looking at the Gross Combined Vehicle Ratings, I found that most of the trucks in the 45o/4500 series to be lacking in GCVR capability. The F450 with the 4:88 rear end is capable of pulling a lot heavier weights than the 4500 series trucks in other brands.
But, even with the F450, my biggest concern with it is that it might be a little weak on handling a big fiver in the mountains. The last thing I want is 18000 pounds of extra gravity wanting to go faster down a mountain pass. Should either the brakes on the trailer or on the truck go out, one would have real problems on a down slope.
In honesty, I am also looking at a motorhome as opposed to a truck and fiver. However, if we do go with the fiver, my wife and I are leaning toward something like the Sportchassis. It is an MDT with four doors and is a converted Freightliner. It can be fairly expensive, but with it and its engine compression braking I would not be concerned with mountain passes.
As for HDT's (full size tractors) with a fiver, my concern would be with the extra size (large) and the suspension. Having driven 18 wheelers when I was much younger, they can be fairly rough riding if one doesn't have a heavy enough load hooked on.
Now, having said all that, if you don't plan on doing a lot of high passes, the F450 would still be a good choice. Look on YouTube and search for Ford F450 and you will find different videos on the 450. One in particular is a video put out by a company that used the 450 in hauling a trailer up to something like 130,000 miles. They gave it a good review, but I also think that Ford commissioned the test.
But whatever you do, enjoy the traveling.
Judy said
03:45 PM Nov 7, 2008
My advice would be to get as BIG a truck as your finances allows. I started FT'ing with a 15000# 5er and pulled it with a F250 HD. It was marginal. After the first year we bought a 20,000# 5er and a 2001 F550 Starhauler and it's also marginal. We had difficulties pulling the grades in California this summer. We also put a Banks Exhaust Brake on the truck for the decents. When we bought the truck, there was also a I-H med duty hauler for sale and thats maybe the one we should have bought. It all depends on the weight of your intended fifth wheel. Under 16K- A F350 Dually Under 18K- A F450 Dually Under 20K- A F550 Dually or better yet a true MDT You can pick up good used Diesel trucks that will give you years of service at a good price. Hope this helps. Bob (the lesser half) of Judy and Bob
-- Edited by Judy at 15:47, 2008-11-07
-- Edited by Judy at 15:48, 2008-11-07
debken said
12:46 PM Nov 8, 2008
We have a 2008 F450 we bought new in Oct '07. The only problems we've had were with the A/C and had to have a radiator replaced. It was no big deal and everything is covered under warranty. As far as towing we have a 38 foot Everest and have been over many mountain passes in the Rockies and Cascades and have had no problem either going up or coming down. This truck is made for towing and comes with an exhaust brake (which sounds pretty cool when it kicks in). It also looks like the inside of a luxury car with the heated leather seats, Sirius radio, wood trim, etc, etc. If I had to list a complaint it would be that it's hard to take pictures with the truck bumping around.
Debbie
Jack Mayer said
01:39 PM Nov 8, 2008
With regard to the HDT - We currently tow with an HDT, and have for over 5 years. Over 3 years of that time the HDT was our only vehcle (we are fulltimers). Prior to the HDT we towed with a 2000 F550.
There are pros and cons to any choice, as there are with an HDT. However, from a technical and safety perspective the Pros far outweigh the cons. But that is not the only consideration....there is also the emotional response to having a BIG truck. Some people (like Howard :)) would never have one. Some people love it once they get used to it. The emotional considerations are just as valid as the technical ones. But remember, the HDT is the same footprint on the road (approximately) as our F550 was - it is just way "taller", which is what makes it look bigger. And it DOES look bigger...
There is no issue with the ride of an HDT. It is FAR, FAR superior to the ride of an MDT or 450/550 style class 4/5. Especially bobtail. There is simply no comparison. Power and braking are designed for an 80K lb. load - so enough said...Depending on the model chosen, ride and noise level inside will be far better than the "super pickups" and the MDTs. Fuel mpg will be the same or better. In our case we were 2.5 mpg better with the HDT than the F550.
Windows can be easily added if you do not like an enclosed sleeper. The sleeper can be setup as a mini- motorhome for weekend trips. The truck can carry any amount of weight (from a practical perspective) piggyback - including cars, motorcyles, ATVs, etc. There is no requirement for the hitch to be located over the axle, as there is in MDTs and other trucks, so that frees up lots of cargo carrying space. It is easy to add a huge drom box (storeage box).
But all that said, an HDT is not the choice for everyone. You might want to take a look at my website where I discuss the choices and some of the pros/cons....
I would just like to add my 2 cents here as a wife of a full-timer. You should consider what your wife would be able to drive and what she would be willing to drive if a HDT was the ONLY thing she had to drive, to get groceries in and do her things that she needed to do while full-tiiming. Yes, it is true that my DH and I usually go together to do what we need to do. Now lets see how many full-timers have that extra vehicle that the DW can use for her needs. I do drive an F-550 but draw the line on these bigger trucks, even though they are needed for what RV you may have even though some ladies do not mind driving them. southwestjudy
Jack Mayer said
10:59 AM Nov 9, 2008
Having everyone comfortable with the choice is for sure an important consideration. But there are many misconceptions about an HDT. You need to understand all the facts before making a choice. Then you can factor in the "emotional" aspect.....
A properly configured, modern HDT is as easy to drive as an MDT. The newer trucks with fully automated transmissions operate jsut like an automatic - although they are technically not automatics. From a functional point of view they operate the same way, though.
Driving an HDT, parking it, etc is basically the same as an F550. Having owned both I can say that with some credibility. The 550 is parked in the outer parking lot, nad takes a litltle more than one parking space. So does the properly configured HDT. Groceries in our case are loaded into a dedicated compartment that is at elbow height to Danielle. She finds it easier and more convenient than putting them on the back seat of the 550. Having lots of storage compartments around the body makes life with the HDT pretty easy.
An HDT (and MDT) will maneuver FAR, FAR better than an F450/550 truck. The difference in parking is remarkable.
There are other factors, but the major issue for most people is still the emotional issue of percieved SIZE.
travelinbob said
01:39 PM Nov 9, 2008
Jack,
Does Danielle drive the Volvo?
Bob
DZ said
02:41 PM Nov 9, 2008
We've been towing approx. 20,000 lb. toyhauler 39' with our 2008 F-450 for a year now and I have to admit I'm very impressed. The integrated brake controller is great, Power and braking are more than adequate. The tow command has never made me a bit nervous about downgrades. yesterday we came downa long 4% grade and the rig stayed at 60 mph with no braking at all. There have been some radiator failures, mine was in for a recall to install a venturi tee kit which hopefully will keep mine from becoming one of them. In talking to the Ford techs in Denver and Albuquerque, they are not seeing a lot of problems with the 6.4. Fuel mileage is not great, 7-8 towing and 12-13 running empty. IMO it's a very capable and comfortable TV.
Jack Mayer said
10:12 AM Nov 11, 2008
Yes, Bob, Danielle does drive the big truck. She does not hesitate to take it out with or without me. But usually I drive. I just like to....And she does tow with it too - but not when we tow doubles.
When it was our daily driver she had no issue taking it wherever....she still says it is easier to park than the 550 - which is true. However, no matter what anyone tells you, it is different to drive than an F550/450. There is no glass all the way around, so you have to get used to driving with the mirrors. And it does have more blind spots because of that. So it is not the same, but not any more difficult. Even if you put side windows in the sleeper - which many people have - it would not help you with the blind spots. You are up high enough that you would be looking "over" any cars. So you HAVE to learn to use mirrors. Which a good driver should be doing anyway. We have cameras that show all the blind spots, in addition to the mirrors. But the mirrors are very large and work very well.
If you or Judy would like to drive my truck just track us down somewhere...
On edit: I see you are on the east coast. We are in VA, and will head for Summerdale, AL SKP park on the 22nd. If you get down there look us up. We will be there through Jan, with a "vacation" to the Tampa RV show.
-- Edited by Jack Mayer at 10:14, 2008-11-11
-- Edited by Jack Mayer at 10:19, 2008-11-11
dgorila1 said
07:20 PM Nov 17, 2008
Jack,
What part of VA are you in right now?
Jack Mayer said
08:03 AM Nov 18, 2008
Long Island, SE of Lynchburg - out in the sticks. Leave Friday for Sumerdale.
You probably know we run an F450. It is a 2005 and we haven't had a single problem with it.
From what I've read, it sounds like there were problems with them in prior years that got worked out by the time we got ours. I haven't heard much about 2006/2007 models. I have heard that the 2008s are getting poor fuel mileage, but I'm not sure what is causing that.
We get 10 mpg pretty consistently while towing 18,000 pounds and close to 15 mpg when not towing.
Now, we chose the F450 (that size truck) because it was the minimum we needed to tow our rig and because we were inexperienced and didn't know any better.
Knowing what we know now, I'm not sure we would have decided any differently, but we would have certainly considered a bigger truck like an F550, a used Medium Duty Truck like a Freightliner or Peterbilt, or a used Heavy Duty Truck. The cost of a used MDT or HDT is less than a new 450 or 550 and gives much more power and stopping capability.
With having the tow vehicle as our only means of transporation, we still likely would have come back to the 450 or a windows-all-around MDT. We've driven HDTs and I don't like the lack of windows, and the hugeness for driving it by itself or "bobtail" as they all it.
However, had we known from the beginning that we would have gotten a second vehicle like our Jeep Liberty, we would have been more inclined to go with an MDT or HDT. Having the Jeep as our running around and off-road vehicle, a used MDT or HDT would have made a lot more sense if just using it for towing.
I don't like all the clutching and shifting of those big trucks, but you can find them now with the FreedomLine transmission which is almost like an automatic.
"The ZF-FreedomLine transmission is the most advanced, automated manual transmission in North America, featuring the first "no-clutch pedal" design, which makes it easier to learn and operate than competing automated systems."
Linda drove a Peterbilt MDT a couple of years ago with this transmission and loved it.
I know your question was about F450s and similar sized trucks. But since we have one, I thought I would tell you what we might have done differently - not because of issues with our truck, but more because there were options out there we didn't consider when starting out.
The intent is not just to add to your confusion.
I also looked at the Ford F450 because of its capability, if properly equipped, of handling the weight of a luxury fiver. We have been looking at a Doubletree Mobile Suites fiver, and they tend to have a gross weight of around 18000 pounds plus.
I also saw the concerns in forums about the F450 and began to look around. In looking at the Gross Combined Vehicle Ratings, I found that most of the trucks in the 45o/4500 series to be lacking in GCVR capability. The F450 with the 4:88 rear end is capable of pulling a lot heavier weights than the 4500 series trucks in other brands.
But, even with the F450, my biggest concern with it is that it might be a little weak on handling a big fiver in the mountains. The last thing I want is 18000 pounds of extra gravity wanting to go faster down a mountain pass. Should either the brakes on the trailer or on the truck go out, one would have real problems on a down slope.
In honesty, I am also looking at a motorhome as opposed to a truck and fiver. However, if we do go with the fiver, my wife and I are leaning toward something like the Sportchassis. It is an MDT with four doors and is a converted Freightliner. It can be fairly expensive, but with it and its engine compression braking I would not be concerned with mountain passes.
As for HDT's (full size tractors) with a fiver, my concern would be with the extra size (large) and the suspension. Having driven 18 wheelers when I was much younger, they can be fairly rough riding if one doesn't have a heavy enough load hooked on.
Now, having said all that, if you don't plan on doing a lot of high passes, the F450 would still be a good choice. Look on YouTube and search for Ford F450 and you will find different videos on the 450. One in particular is a video put out by a company that used the 450 in hauling a trailer up to something like 130,000 miles. They gave it a good review, but I also think that Ford commissioned the test.
But whatever you do, enjoy the traveling.
When we bought the truck, there was also a I-H med duty hauler for sale and thats maybe the one we should have bought.
It all depends on the weight of your intended fifth wheel.
Under 16K- A F350 Dually
Under 18K- A F450 Dually
Under 20K- A F550 Dually or better yet a true MDT
You can pick up good used Diesel trucks that will give you years of service at a good price.
Hope this helps.
Bob (the lesser half) of Judy and Bob
-- Edited by Judy at 15:47, 2008-11-07
-- Edited by Judy at 15:48, 2008-11-07
There are pros and cons to any choice, as there are with an HDT. However, from a technical and safety perspective the Pros far outweigh the cons. But that is not the only consideration....there is also the emotional response to having a BIG truck. Some people (like Howard :)) would never have one. Some people love it once they get used to it. The emotional considerations are just as valid as the technical ones. But remember, the HDT is the same footprint on the road (approximately) as our F550 was - it is just way "taller", which is what makes it look bigger. And it DOES look bigger...
There is no issue with the ride of an HDT. It is FAR, FAR superior to the ride of an MDT or 450/550 style class 4/5. Especially bobtail. There is simply no comparison. Power and braking are designed for an 80K lb. load - so enough said...Depending on the model chosen, ride and noise level inside will be far better than the "super pickups" and the MDTs. Fuel mpg will be the same or better. In our case we were 2.5 mpg better with the HDT than the F550.
Windows can be easily added if you do not like an enclosed sleeper. The sleeper can be setup as a mini- motorhome for weekend trips. The truck can carry any amount of weight (from a practical perspective) piggyback - including cars, motorcyles, ATVs, etc. There is no requirement for the hitch to be located over the axle, as there is in MDTs and other trucks, so that frees up lots of cargo carrying space. It is easy to add a huge drom box (storeage box).
But all that said, an HDT is not the choice for everyone. You might want to take a look at my website where I discuss the choices and some of the pros/cons....
http://www.jackdanmayer.com/
-- Edited by Jack Mayer at 13:42, 2008-11-08
southwestjudy
A properly configured, modern HDT is as easy to drive as an MDT. The newer trucks with fully automated transmissions operate jsut like an automatic - although they are technically not automatics. From a functional point of view they operate the same way, though.
Driving an HDT, parking it, etc is basically the same as an F550. Having owned both I can say that with some credibility. The 550 is parked in the outer parking lot, nad takes a litltle more than one parking space. So does the properly configured HDT. Groceries in our case are loaded into a dedicated compartment that is at elbow height to Danielle. She finds it easier and more convenient than putting them on the back seat of the 550. Having lots of storage compartments around the body makes life with the HDT pretty easy.
An HDT (and MDT) will maneuver FAR, FAR better than an F450/550 truck. The difference in parking is remarkable.
There are other factors, but the major issue for most people is still the emotional issue of percieved SIZE.
When it was our daily driver she had no issue taking it wherever....she still says it is easier to park than the 550 - which is true. However, no matter what anyone tells you, it is different to drive than an F550/450. There is no glass all the way around, so you have to get used to driving with the mirrors. And it does have more blind spots because of that. So it is not the same, but not any more difficult. Even if you put side windows in the sleeper - which many people have - it would not help you with the blind spots. You are up high enough that you would be looking "over" any cars. So you HAVE to learn to use mirrors. Which a good driver should be doing anyway. We have cameras that show all the blind spots, in addition to the mirrors. But the mirrors are very large and work very well.
If you or Judy would like to drive my truck just track us down somewhere...
On edit: I see you are on the east coast. We are in VA, and will head for Summerdale, AL SKP park on the 22nd. If you get down there look us up. We will be there through Jan, with a "vacation" to the Tampa RV show.
-- Edited by Jack Mayer at 10:14, 2008-11-11
-- Edited by Jack Mayer at 10:19, 2008-11-11