Found this informative tutorial and spreadsheet for calculating the true towability of a truck/trailer combo. A real help for buyers. Might even be worth running through even if you think you have this topic all sewed up... Happy towing...
Well, for some reason I can't read your post....trying to see if I can read it after posting this.
EDIT: okay, now can read it. <g>
-- Edited by Froggi at 19:35, 2007-11-17
Jim01 said
08:05 AM Nov 18, 2007
Great site, RVDude,
Those weights add up quickly. I would think that RVers with Motorhomes could benefit from this site also.
What I have found is that you can't trust the Mfg., Dealers, or anyone else when buying an RV. You need to get the unit weighed before you buy it. If you do not have a way to get the unit to the scales, have the seller take it there for you, and go along, so you can witness the weighing yourself. If the Dealer won't take it, shop somewhere else.
Back when we were new to all of this RVing stuff, we purchased a Travel Trailer that was was within 300 lbs. of being overloaded, without any water, LP, or supplies. (As we found out after getting the unit weighed.) This trailer was built by a major Mfg. and bought from a large dealership. Both had a good reputation at the time, so we took their word for everything.
Big mistake!
We only kept the trailer for a short time, as we started having problems with the suspension and tires. (I'm sure it was from overloading.)
There's really nothing you can do to increase the load capacity of an RV, and trading it for something else is usually very expensive.
OK, I'll get off of my soap box now.
Have a great day.
HighwayRanger said
10:22 AM Nov 24, 2007
Excellent site to bookmark! Thanks RV Dude!
Jack Mayer said
11:04 AM Nov 25, 2007
When shopping you OFTEN can not get the exact weights of the 2 units. To insist on the actual scale weight of a trailer is a good thing, but will not happen many/most times.
I always recommend that the GVWR be used for calculation purposes on the trailer. Most fulltime rigs are loaded fully, or near fully. Many are overloaded. There are exceptions with rigs with GREAT carrying capacity, or sometimes with singles that travel lightly, so you have to fit your circumstances to the "guideline".
On the truck weight, it is relatively easy to scale the truck if you own it, but if you do not own it simply post on the Escapees forum and ask for a "fulltiming" weight on that model truck. Use that number unless you know better.
Calculation is pretty simple once you know those 2 numbers. Take the GCWR of the truck, subtract the actual weight of the truck with full fuel and your weights, including dogs and "stuff' - which you got a good estimate of from the internet. That gives you the allowable weight for the loaded trailer. If the GVWR of the trailer is not within that, then you will be overloaded. Pretty simple, really.
NEVER, EVER use the "tow rating" in the manuf. towing guides. They are way off since they assume an unloaded truck with no options.
bago40 said
11:44 AM Nov 25, 2007
Thanks RV Dude! The link was very informative and easy to cross ref. When I purchased my rig I assumed the gvwr was put in when the manufaturer had produced and then weighed my rig. After taking the time to read about the special options I realized that it would be way to much for them to do since every rig has too many options and (variants) in weight. After about ten minutes of math I had the true unloaded weight of my rig! Not too difficult. Your link added even more info. Thanks, Again. Bago.
gypsy97 said
11:49 AM Aug 4, 2008
I just took at look at the website referred to and my heart is sinking! Do I actually need to do all those computations if I buy a 5ver & tv? I am fairly good at numbers (was a budget analyst in my former life), but this stuff just makes my eyes glaze over. I don't want to offend anyone, but I think this is "guy stuff" and I'm a woman alone. I sometimes email one of my sons to ask for the definition of a term and he always knows the answer! He's not even an RVer, so it just must be in the male genes But he's in CA and I'm in NC, so he can't really help me out when it comes to deciding what to buy. gypsy
RVDude said
02:03 PM Aug 4, 2008
Actually gypsy, you or someone needs to run the numbers. It's genderless, kinda like RV'ing. It's for your personal safety and quite frankly mine - if I am ever driving on the road next to you.
It is really very straightforward and involves reading labels of the RV and the tow vehicle and making sure the numbers are in line. Then, when you get rolling, you confirm with an actual weighing. You can not imagine how fast your load adds up. And remember, this is not about pulling (like a salesperson will tell you) it's all about stopping, turning, and control. Let alone increased life of your equipment.
For fun, just go to your refrigerator and pull out all the stuff in there into a laundry basket. Then go weigh it on the bathroom scale. Do the same with a couple drawers of clothes. Be ready to be amazed.
gypsy97 said
02:23 PM Aug 4, 2008
I agree with you RVDude, and I will do that - I just have to do an attitude adjustment! The terminology is unlike any that I've ever dealt with, but I'm learning slowly but surely. I've been reading enough posts on a number of forums that stress being able to stop, and I certainly don't ever want to be in a position where I might not be able to stop as fast as I need to. I drive a Jeep Grand Cherokee and have made many trips back and forth across the country, and I'm a cautious and aware driver - I won't be any different driving a truck & towing a 5th wheel behind. And I know what you're talking about in weighing the contents of a fridge - my long-distance backpacking experience has taught me how to pare weight when I have to.
I just had to vent a bit - I finally get GVWR and CCC down pat, and here are a bunch of other acronyms & terms that I have to learn. I guess it's no worse than working for the Army - now that's a foreign language gypsy
nevadadon said
07:49 PM Jan 27, 2009
Hi all, I’m looking for a little help and I’m not sure if this is the proper place to asked the question. I just bought a new 5th wheel; the brochure dry weight is 8340 lbs. On the way home from picking the new rig up I stopped at a CAT sale and attempted to weight it. I had my truck on front scale the front axle on the trailer on the second scale and the rear axle on the back scale. This is the data I got. My wife and I were both in the truck when it was weight and we had ¾ of a tank of gas.
Steer axle 7520 lbs.
Drive axle 3320 lbs.
Trailer axle 3580 lbs.
Gross weight 14420 lbs.
I have a 2000 Chevy Silverado 2500 extended cab with a max trailering capacity of 11200 lbs., and a GVWR of 8600 lbs.
Was I supposed to unhitch the trailer before weighting?
Can someone decipher this data for me please?
Don
Luvglass said
08:07 PM Jan 27, 2009
You need to do a separate weight on the truck, with full gas tank and all passengers. Put the front wheels on 1 and the rear on 2.
Then with the trailer connected, put the front wheels of the truck on 1, the rear wheels on 2 and the trailer wheels on 3. That data can be used to determine everything you need to know.
gypsy97 said
08:29 PM Jan 27, 2009
Is there a place where you can have the weighing done besides at an interstate truck weigh station, or a truck stop such as a Pilot? I know I would be pretty slow at this and wouldn't want to get in the way of busy truckers. How about where you go for RV service, such as a Camping World?
gypsy
Jack Mayer said
11:08 AM Jan 28, 2009
Why would you be slow?
You pull onto the scales - there are three segments. Make sure the front truck axle is on one, the rear axle on the second and the trailer tires will be on the third.
Pick up the phone and tell the person you are "ready to weigh". They will ask for your truck number, or name. Just tell them you are an RV. They may ask if it is a reweigh - tell them no if they ask.
They will then press the button to weigh the rig, and tell you they are done.
Pull off the scale, park out of the way, go inside and pay and get your ticket. This will tell you your loaded weights. DO NOT park in front of the scale, or near it!!
You get a free reweigh within 24 hrs (usually). Go find a spot in the truckstop and drop the trailer (or go home and drop it if you live close). Now go back to the scale with just the truck and position on the front 2 segments like you did before. This time when the operator answers tell them you a private truck and that it is a "reweigh".
Go collect your new ticket - which you will not be charged for if you told them it was a reweigh. You can figure your pin weight from the difference in the rear axle weight. You can also figure out how the trailer loads or unloads your front axle.
Until you can get to a Rally to weigh individual wheels this will give you a good idea what you have.
nevadadon said
07:24 PM Feb 11, 2009
Hi Fred and Jack, I’ve weighed my truck and rig again using the process as you described above Fred. It took only about 10 minuets. This is my data and my interpretation of it, please let me know if I did this correctly.
My wife, dog and I were in the truck with a full tank of gas. Truck front wheels on scale one, truck rear wheels on scale two and both trailer axles on scale three.
This is my conclusion, trailer weight 9180, hitch weight 1680. Did I get it correct this time?
-- Edited by nevadadon at 19:26, 2009-02-11
Luvglass said
07:39 PM Feb 11, 2009
The loaded truck has to be weighed separately so it can be deducted from the second weighing when attached to the fiver, to determine the pin weight and total weight of the trailer. Do you have a separate weight on the truck?
nevadadon said
07:53 PM Feb 11, 2009
Fred, Maybe I describe this to you wrong, First weight was the loaded truck and trailer with a gross weight of 15340 lbs. Second weight was the loaded truck only with a total weight of 6160 lbs.
Luvglass said
08:01 PM Feb 11, 2009
Sorry, I misunderstood. Your weights are correct.
manning said
09:18 PM Mar 30, 2011
Am I doing something wrong? I click onto this and don't get a calculater
At the bottom of that page are a few helpful links including a couple of calculators.
Note: I haven't reviewed the calculators, I'm just providing the working link to get there.
Neil and Connie said
06:16 AM Apr 20, 2011
I'm starting to look at various 5ers asnd tow vehicles . . .looking at Keystone's site they don't have GVWR in the specs. They only show Shipping weight and Carrying capacity . . .is adding those together reasonable for the GVWR or do builders keep some GVWR in reserve?
What I'm trying to do is make the F350/F450 decision. I know Howard has the 450 but at the rally last week it seemed like F350 DRW's were more common than 450's in the park. I know that the F450 has a higher towing capacity . . .which was why Howard got his . . .but the 2011 Ford brochure shows that a F350 DRW 6.7 turbo diesel has a GCWR of 30,000 and a Max trailer loaded weight of 22,000. Reverse engineering those shows a max truck weight of 9000 but I couldn't find an actual F350 DRW on the road weight on Ford's site. I'm guessing that they did the limits with fuel and a skinny driver only and that by the time you put aux tank, hitch, kayak, toolbox and other bed carried stuff the truck will be up in the 9500-1000 range . . .which would reduce the max trailer weight to 21000 based on the GCWR of 30000.
Howard's rig weighs in at 18,200 or so based on a post I found on the site.
For weight comparison purposes . . .I picked the Keystone Montana 3455SA which is about the size we want . . .that gives me a combined shipping plus carrying capacity weight of 15540. Since that's significantly smaller than Howard's Cambridge . . .I'm assuming that the actual loaded weight of the Montana would be more than the 15540 but don't see how it would get up to 21000.
Based on all of that . . .it looks to me like the 350 DRW is plenty . . .maybe they upgraded the towing capacity since Howard got his. We would prefer the 350 as it obviously gets a little better mileage and costs about 10K less once it's ready for towing . . .but don't want to underbuy as we will be towing out west a lot; like Howard and Linda we like to hike/bike/kayak so will be staying primarily in rural/state park settings vice in commercial in-town sites.
Am I completely off base with these assumptions or on the right path? Obviously the 450 would be fine . . .but the prevailing opinion I got from the rig walk throughs at the rally was that the 350 was plenty unless you got a Teton or other really heavy rig.
Jack Mayer said
07:37 AM Apr 20, 2011
Seems like you have a handle on how to figure it out.
My F550 loaded for fulltiming use was in the 9700-10K range, depending on what we were carrying. I think making an assumption of at least 9800 is fair.
Just remember, many fulltimers upgrade their trailer over time....and they are almost always heavier.
Terry and Jo said
08:23 AM Apr 21, 2011
Neil,
Try this website to get a downloadable (pdf file) of the Ford products. Just choose 2011 Superduty in the pull-down menu. Once you get the pdf file opened up, you can save it on your computer for future use. I have numerous pdf files for different years on mine.
Look on page 28 of the brochure for the truck GVWR ratings and the towing capacities of fifth wheel trailers. Page 27 has the towing capacities for conventional trailer towing.
If you need earlier years, I may be able to help you if you send me your e-mail address via private message. There used to be an online source of older brochures, but that link is now unavailable. You'll just have to give me a couple of days until we go home from our vacation. The files are on my home desktop computer, not this laptop.
Terry
-- Edited by Terry and Jo on Thursday 21st of April 2011 08:35:43 AM
Neil and Connie said
01:03 PM Apr 22, 2011
>> usually heavier.
Thanks . . .we'll keep that in mind and won't go up to the max on whatever we buy. Hopefully we won't upgrade the coach because we would have done a good job of picking it in the first place . . .but I'm sure that everybody says that until they actually live in it for awhile.
Neil and Connie said
01:05 PM Apr 22, 2011
Terry, thanks for the link. I have that pdf brochure already but it only had towing capacity and GVWR for the truck . . .I was trying to guestimate what the actual loaded weight of the truck was vs just using the GVWR. I had guessed 9800-10000 which appears to have been reasonable.
One other thing I was considering is that the 350 comes off the line with the bed installed where the 450 (according to Howard's now 6 year old post that may no longer be applicable) . . comes off the line with no bed and one has to find/get the bed installed separately. I would hazard a guess that the dealership handles those details for you so the paint matches and such . . .but maybe not. The 450 gets a little worse mileage and is 10K or so more expensive . . .hence I was looking at the 350 DRW instead based on cost and what folks recommended at the rally.
-- Edited by laubenthal on Friday 22nd of April 2011 01:08:37 PM
Terry and Jo said
03:20 PM Apr 22, 2011
Neil,
Check with a dealer about whether the F450 comes with a bed. I was thinking that they did, but in our case, we bought our 2008 used about a year and a half ago and it had the bed. If I remember correctly, the dealer told us that ours used to be a leased truck. I can't imagine someone leasing a truck that someone had to put on a special bed.
You may still be right with the price though. We were glad to get ours used and saved about $30,000 or more by doing so. While the 6.4L with 4:88 rear end doesn't do really great on mileage, it will pull about anything. Even with poor mileage, $30,000 less on price lets us buy a lot of fuel and get the coach that we wanted rather than settle for less.
Don't forget to consider used, especially if you can find a good one with low mileage.
Happy towing...
http://www.klenger.net/arctic-fox/weight
-- Edited by RVDude at 10:16, 2007-11-18
EDIT: okay, now can read it. <g>
-- Edited by Froggi at 19:35, 2007-11-17
Those weights add up quickly. I would think that RVers with Motorhomes could benefit from this site also.
What I have found is that you can't trust the Mfg., Dealers, or anyone else when buying an RV. You need to get the unit weighed before you buy it. If you do not have a way to get the unit to the scales, have the seller take it there for you, and go along, so you can witness the weighing yourself. If the Dealer won't take it, shop somewhere else.
Back when we were new to all of this RVing stuff, we purchased a Travel Trailer that was was within 300 lbs. of being overloaded, without any water, LP, or supplies. (As we found out after getting the unit weighed.) This trailer was built by a major Mfg. and bought from a large dealership. Both had a good reputation at the time, so we took their word for everything.
Big mistake!
We only kept the trailer for a short time, as we started having problems with the suspension and tires. (I'm sure it was from overloading.)
There's really nothing you can do to increase the load capacity of an RV, and trading it for something else is usually very expensive.
OK, I'll get off of my soap box now.
Have a great day.
I always recommend that the GVWR be used for calculation purposes on the trailer. Most fulltime rigs are loaded fully, or near fully. Many are overloaded. There are exceptions with rigs with GREAT carrying capacity, or sometimes with singles that travel lightly, so you have to fit your circumstances to the "guideline".
On the truck weight, it is relatively easy to scale the truck if you own it, but if you do not own it simply post on the Escapees forum and ask for a "fulltiming" weight on that model truck. Use that number unless you know better.
Calculation is pretty simple once you know those 2 numbers. Take the GCWR of the truck, subtract the actual weight of the truck with full fuel and your weights, including dogs and "stuff' - which you got a good estimate of from the internet. That gives you the allowable weight for the loaded trailer. If the GVWR of the trailer is not within that, then you will be overloaded. Pretty simple, really.
NEVER, EVER use the "tow rating" in the manuf. towing guides. They are way off since they assume an unloaded truck with no options.
gypsy
It is really very straightforward and involves reading labels of the RV and the tow vehicle and making sure the numbers are in line. Then, when you get rolling, you confirm with an actual weighing. You can not imagine how fast your load adds up. And remember, this is not about pulling (like a salesperson will tell you) it's all about stopping, turning, and control. Let alone increased life of your equipment.
For fun, just go to your refrigerator and pull out all the stuff in there into a laundry basket. Then go weigh it on the bathroom scale. Do the same with a couple drawers of clothes. Be ready to be amazed.
I just had to vent a bit - I finally get GVWR and CCC down pat, and here are a bunch of other acronyms & terms that I have to learn. I guess it's no worse than working for the Army - now that's a foreign language
gypsy
Steer axle 7520 lbs.
Drive axle 3320 lbs.
Trailer axle 3580 lbs.
Gross weight 14420 lbs.
I have a 2000 Chevy Silverado 2500 extended cab with a max trailering capacity of 11200 lbs., and a GVWR of 8600 lbs.
Was I supposed to unhitch the trailer before weighting?
Can someone decipher this data for me please?
Don
gypsy
You pull onto the scales - there are three segments. Make sure the front truck axle is on one, the rear axle on the second and the trailer tires will be on the third.
Pick up the phone and tell the person you are "ready to weigh". They will ask for your truck number, or name. Just tell them you are an RV. They may ask if it is a reweigh - tell them no if they ask.
They will then press the button to weigh the rig, and tell you they are done.
Pull off the scale, park out of the way, go inside and pay and get your ticket. This will tell you your loaded weights. DO NOT park in front of the scale, or near it!!
You get a free reweigh within 24 hrs (usually). Go find a spot in the truckstop and drop the trailer (or go home and drop it if you live close). Now go back to the scale with just the truck and position on the front 2 segments like you did before. This time when the operator answers tell them you a private truck and that it is a "reweigh".
Go collect your new ticket - which you will not be charged for if you told them it was a reweigh. You can figure your pin weight from the difference in the rear axle weight. You can also figure out how the trailer loads or unloads your front axle.
Until you can get to a Rally to weigh individual wheels this will give you a good idea what you have.
My wife, dog and I were in the truck with a full tank of gas. Truck front wheels on scale one, truck rear wheels on scale two and both trailer axles on scale three.
First weigh Reweigh
Steer axle 3440 3440
Drive axle 4400 2720
Trailer axle 7500 0
Gross weight 15340 6160
This is my conclusion, trailer weight 9180, hitch weight 1680. Did I get it correct this time?
-- Edited by nevadadon at 19:26, 2009-02-11
Am I doing something wrong? I click onto this and don't get a calculater
http://www.klenger.net/arctic-fox/weight
Here is the link to the Klenger.net RV and Tow Vehicle Weights page.
At the bottom of that page are a few helpful links including a couple of calculators.
Note: I haven't reviewed the calculators, I'm just providing the working link to get there.
I'm starting to look at various 5ers asnd tow vehicles . . .looking at Keystone's site they don't have GVWR in the specs. They only show Shipping weight and Carrying capacity . . .is adding those together reasonable for the GVWR or do builders keep some GVWR in reserve?
What I'm trying to do is make the F350/F450 decision. I know Howard has the 450 but at the rally last week it seemed like F350 DRW's were more common than 450's in the park. I know that the F450 has a higher towing capacity . . .which was why Howard got his . . .but the 2011 Ford brochure shows that a F350 DRW 6.7 turbo diesel has a GCWR of 30,000 and a Max trailer loaded weight of 22,000. Reverse engineering those shows a max truck weight of 9000 but I couldn't find an actual F350 DRW on the road weight on Ford's site. I'm guessing that they did the limits with fuel and a skinny driver only and that by the time you put aux tank, hitch, kayak, toolbox and other bed carried stuff the truck will be up in the 9500-1000 range . . .which would reduce the max trailer weight to 21000 based on the GCWR of 30000.
Howard's rig weighs in at 18,200 or so based on a post I found on the site.
For weight comparison purposes . . .I picked the Keystone Montana 3455SA which is about the size we want . . .that gives me a combined shipping plus carrying capacity weight of 15540. Since that's significantly smaller than Howard's Cambridge . . .I'm assuming that the actual loaded weight of the Montana would be more than the 15540 but don't see how it would get up to 21000.
Based on all of that . . .it looks to me like the 350 DRW is plenty . . .maybe they upgraded the towing capacity since Howard got his. We would prefer the 350 as it obviously gets a little better mileage and costs about 10K less once it's ready for towing . . .but don't want to underbuy as we will be towing out west a lot; like Howard and Linda we like to hike/bike/kayak so will be staying primarily in rural/state park settings vice in commercial in-town sites.
Am I completely off base with these assumptions or on the right path? Obviously the 450 would be fine . . .but the prevailing opinion I got from the rig walk throughs at the rally was that the 350 was plenty unless you got a Teton or other really heavy rig.
My F550 loaded for fulltiming use was in the 9700-10K range, depending on what we were carrying. I think making an assumption of at least 9800 is fair.
Just remember, many fulltimers upgrade their trailer over time....and they are almost always heavier.
Neil,
Try this website to get a downloadable (pdf file) of the Ford products. Just choose 2011 Superduty in the pull-down menu. Once you get the pdf file opened up, you can save it on your computer for future use. I have numerous pdf files for different years on mine.
Look on page 28 of the brochure for the truck GVWR ratings and the towing capacities of fifth wheel trailers. Page 27 has the towing capacities for conventional trailer towing.
http://www.ford.com/brochures/
If you need earlier years, I may be able to help you if you send me your e-mail address via private message. There used to be an online source of older brochures, but that link is now unavailable. You'll just have to give me a couple of days until we go home from our vacation. The files are on my home desktop computer, not this laptop.
Terry
-- Edited by Terry and Jo on Thursday 21st of April 2011 08:35:43 AM
>> usually heavier.
Thanks . . .we'll keep that in mind and won't go up to the max on whatever we buy. Hopefully we won't upgrade the coach because we would have done a good job of picking it in the first place . . .but I'm sure that everybody says that until they actually live in it for awhile.
Terry, thanks for the link. I have that pdf brochure already but it only had towing capacity and GVWR for the truck . . .I was trying to guestimate what the actual loaded weight of the truck was vs just using the GVWR. I had guessed 9800-10000 which appears to have been reasonable.
One other thing I was considering is that the 350 comes off the line with the bed installed where the 450 (according to Howard's now 6 year old post that may no longer be applicable) . . comes off the line with no bed and one has to find/get the bed installed separately. I would hazard a guess that the dealership handles those details for you so the paint matches and such . . .but maybe not. The 450 gets a little worse mileage and is 10K or so more expensive . . .hence I was looking at the 350 DRW instead based on cost and what folks recommended at the rally.
-- Edited by laubenthal on Friday 22nd of April 2011 01:08:37 PM
Neil,
Check with a dealer about whether the F450 comes with a bed. I was thinking that they did, but in our case, we bought our 2008 used about a year and a half ago and it had the bed. If I remember correctly, the dealer told us that ours used to be a leased truck. I can't imagine someone leasing a truck that someone had to put on a special bed.
You may still be right with the price though. We were glad to get ours used and saved about $30,000 or more by doing so. While the 6.4L with 4:88 rear end doesn't do really great on mileage, it will pull about anything. Even with poor mileage, $30,000 less on price lets us buy a lot of fuel and get the coach that we wanted rather than settle for less.
Don't forget to consider used, especially if you can find a good one with low mileage.
Terry