Hello All, This is my first post and I will provide some background. I think we are close to where Howard and Linda were when they started out in 2004/5. We are also in out mid 40's, no children, and basically have been finding life not going the way we want it. Most people would consider us successful with a very nice home and 2 Lexus's in the driveway, so we basically are"successful", we are just not happy or fulfilled. Therefore we have been talking about a major change for a while, but were uncertain of what that change should be. When our real estate taxes crossed $12K/yr (now $12,800) I began trying to talk my wife into selling but she needed to know where we would go to. We looked at condo's and town homes etc, but found nothing to our liking without spending a million (which we do not have). So it is recently we decided that our major change should be into a RV as there is so much of the country we have never seen or experienced. Basically we are thinking of going out full time until we come upon something we want to do more. I am not in a position to give up working altogether, but believe I am in a field where I could give up my current stress filled job and earn $50k working remotely with only a Internet and phone connection, so we will see if I am correct or we go broke. So I think Fred (luvglass) had my favorite sentiment about this issue, which was "I find myself more sorry for the things I didn't try, than the ones I did that didn't work out", so with that in mind we have been interviewing real estate agents and looking at RV's. We should net almost $250K selling our home and that is where I am targeting the top end of our budget. Obviously stretching further is doable, but then one of use needs to earn enough to make the payments.
Our first question is the fiver vs diesel pusher. Many people here and on all boards think a fiver is the way to go for full time. I have yet to walk into a fiver that I look at and think I could live in. Maybe it is just that I have yet to look at any high quality brands, or any equipped for full time, but I just do not get a comfy feeling on this front I want to like a fiver as the price is much more sensible and the idea of not having to tow a car seems appealing. But in our limited local looking we have yet to see a generator equipped unit with the solid wood cabinets and solid counter tops, tile flooring and such that we see on a DP. We plan on going to Hershey in 2 weeks so we will see more there I assume. On the DP side we have looked at The Allegro Bus, Travel Supreme, and Country Coach. All relatively quickly to just answer the question could we live in one of these. I am not opposed to buying a used unit and probably will do so if we decide on a higher end unit. But the bottom line was that I felt certain I could live comfortably in a Travel supreme select. I look forward to seeing a Dutch Star as they seem well regarded and I like the layouts.
So with that in mind I would like to ask a few questions or start discussions. I am familiar with boats and come from that frame of reference. In boating I know based on years of experience what are good high quality brands and what may be more price sensitive lines. There is also the concept of lowering the price by eliminating frills or having many frills and elimination of the quality. Price usually gives some indication of pecking order, but it is far from a complete picture, so how do we best get that perspective quickly about this issue. Clearly Country Coach positions themselves as a Quality Leader, but the Tiffen Allegro looks reasonable at a more modest price. Am I better off with a 5 year old Country coach or a new tiffen is what I need to think about. In the boating world this quality is best expressed by how many screws and parts end up on the floor after a rough trip. Will I end up finding loose screws lying around after every road trip on a lower end brand?
I always thought the best approach to selecting a boat after accounting for personnel needs is to focus on where the best resale value lies since that indicates how the market as a whole values a product. I assume this would be true in RVs also, but it seems difficult to tell the value as I have only been looking at the market a short time.
Are particular brands easier to find service on than others. For instance I know I can get service on a Detroit Diesel engine anywhere since they are widely used in many commercial applications (trucks, buses, generators)you can find a qualified mechanic anywhere. Maybe not a motor home mechanic, but a Detroit diesel mechanic is easily found.. Motor homes seem to use CAT and Cummings, are they both easy to find service for, or in other words should this affect my choice.
I am interested to hear how people made their choices and if you now believe you made the best choice. Clearly many people are happy and feel they get good value for the dollar with moderate price brands, if so I am wondering which brands they are. Additionally many people buy moderate price brands because they look nice in the showroom and then are disappointed with performance or real world usage, and I am tying to weed those models out.
In my reading of this forum you all are so open and helpful I am hoping that you will share your thoughts on these issues with me.
-- Bruce
Darrell and Judy said
06:33 PM Sep 3, 2007
Bruce,
I'm a fifthwheel owner but we looked at a lot of motorhomes. I know that Tiffin stands behind their product even after it is out of warranty. Newmar has an excellent reputation and Country Coach is a top line unit. I know that a lot of people advocate the Cummings Diesel with the Spartan chasis. I would suggest that you check out Norm Payne's website - he's been fulltiming since 1999 and just purchased a new Dutch Star in 2006. He has a lot of motorhome information on his site that could help you in deciding. Norm's website is http://seeya-downtheroad.com.
By the way, when you get into the top end fifthwheel's they are outfitted with solid cabinetry as well as a lot of options that you find on motorhomes. Mobile Elite, Royals International, Travel Supreme, Kountry Star to mention a few.
Darrell
bjoyce said
07:36 PM Sep 3, 2007
A friend just bought a 2002 Foretravel and is very happy. Foretravels are definitely high end units. My in-laws have a 2001 Monaco Dynasty tag axle unit and are also pretty happy. Once you go used you can find some nice units. We did buy our 2004 Dutch Star new Norm and Linda Payne have the same floorplan we do in a 2005.
Most mid to lower end motorhomes use a frame rail chassis and this includes all gas ones. This includes the Spartan used in my Dutch Star, all Freightliners, and many other products. Given enough time a frame rail chassis will loosen and flex and will not drive as well as when it was new. Ten years will show some impact, but there are many frame rail motorhomes that are 20 years old out there still doing fine.
Most higher end motorhomes and true buses are monocoque chassis, where parts of the walls add to the stiffness of the chassis, this includes Country Coach, Newell and Foretravel. If you are in it for the long term, decades really, then monocoque is the way to go. But you pay for it. If you want a really huge engine, over 450 hp or so, then I would recommend a monocoque chassis since it adds stiffness you need to deal with the twist that big engine is putting on the frame.
Alpine Coach makes its own variant chassis that has about the best drive experience for a motorhome. But their quality has not always been good, so look closely. We almost bought an Alpine instead of a Dutch Star.
How many air bags are on each axle makes a big difference in ride and how the motorhome handles curves. That means no air bags is worse.
CAT and Cummins both make good engines and there are plenty of places to work on them both. Some high end motorhomes use Detroit Diesels, which is common in real buses. At the same horsepower the Cummins normally has an edge on torque over a CAT, so it will climb hills just a bit better. A 350 to 400hp engine is a good match for motorhomes less than 35,000 lbs. Side radiators are better and above about 350hp they seem to be required.
Why is a motorhome feeling better for you? What is appealing to you about the ones you like? How do you intend to travel? Will you need the RV usable with the slides in? Do you need slides at all, if not you can get some incredible deals on older very well made motorhomes. Have you looked closely at storage both above and below? Are you going to dry camp much?
Most like dark cabinets when they look at RVs and then many dislike them when they have to stay inside in dreary weather since it is so dark. To others they still like the warm look of dark cabinets even in dreary weather. This is just an example where each of us has a different opinion.
jdensie said
06:27 AM Sep 4, 2007
Hi Bruce, First welcome to the site. Hopefully you will get a lot of good information here. A lot of the information above is great and very helpful. In our case when we were deciding to fulltime we had the same issues. We decided on a MH DP for several reasons. We wanted to have a car when we were parked and still have storage space in the car, we bought a Saturn Vue.Went with the pusher for the storage space in the basement.We have heard a lot of stories on new MH’s from friends and the problems that they had.We went with a used unit; it had about 40,000 miles on it that is just about a brake-in time for a diesel.That way we hoped all of the problems were taken care of.So far it has been great and we love our home, and have not had any problems.We will state one thing and that is if this is going to be your home, get the hydro-hot system for your heat and domestic hot water.When we were looking we had a lot of MH to look at and we are sure you will get your fill at Hershey.For us when we walked into our unit we just knew it, and it was right for us.Like you in your assessment of boats, I owned a campground for 13 years and a lot of the information we gathered was first hand.Good luck in your new adventure, hope to meet you on the road sometime.
ken and cindy said
09:51 AM Sep 4, 2007
Welcome Bruce glad you joined .
Here's my take on it, Its about personal choice and budget. Personal choice is, how comfortable you and especially your spouse feels in it. And budget is what you want to afford and can.
We have gone from a 34ft Class A to a 40ft Fifth wheel. Our decision was made after researching (forever) and actually living in the motorhome for 2 months, it became quite clear that we wanted more room, higher ceilings, more cabinet storage and pure living space, those were our main considerations.
When looking at the larger DP'ers 40'+, one thing kept sticking out, they all looked the same ! (low flat ceiling front to back) Drivers area takes away quite a bit of actual living space and no matter if you looked at a Newmar King Aire or at the Dutchstar the only real difference was opulence and price (sure I know ,there are chassis and engine differences) But when you come down to it, it was still just a box on wheels with a big expensive engine pushing it.
We looked at Fifthwheels when visiting the various "RV SHOWS" but like you, could not find one that impressed us, we kept comparing them to the big diesel pushers overall quality.
We also had our budget to think about, should we go into debt with a DP or be debt free +++ with a 5'ver and a pickup ?
After some sleepless nights I went to look at a new Dutchstar, while I was there I stopped in to look at a Newmar Torrey Pine fifthwheel, instantly I was converted ? It had everything we had been looking for, room ,solid suface counters ,high ceilings and all solid maple cabinets that stretched all the way to the ceiling, its was huge ! Called my wife and and we made a trip back to dealer.
I showed her the Dutchstar (nope), the London Aire (your kidding right?) and the King Aire (Heck NO, $700K), then I showed her the Torrey Pine, and to quote Linda Payne " I could live in this" Well that was easy :)
We have now made our first quick trip in it (600 miles) and could not have wished for more, the towing was great ,hitching up and unhooking is a non-event. Ours did not come with a generator prep but after a lot of research and recomendations, we decided for us, a pair of small honda 2000's are all we would ever need (they are still in the boxes).
Our plan is that this setup should last us at least ten years (our last one we owned for 8 years) total out of pocket for the 2008 5'ver and 2008 superduty was around $115k. The Dutchstar and a toad was going to be around $255k. This made the decision easy for us (budget) .
But it all really boils down to what you and the spouse want to live in.
-- Edited by ken and cindy at 10:54, 2007-09-04
-- Edited by ken and cindy at 11:04, 2007-09-04
Speedhitch said
06:24 PM Sep 4, 2007
Hi Bruce welcome aboard! I would have to say that Ken and Cindy hit the mark. If you are going to LIVE in an RV you will have a 5th wheel. You may not start with one but if you LIVE in a MH like we did for a year you will get a 5th wheel later. There is no comparison on the living room. OK that said we hope that what ever you decide on that you enjoy the life like Sherri and I have.
Sherri and Joe
brucedelta said
06:46 PM Sep 4, 2007
Thank you all for your thoughtful replies! I will try to answer some of the posed questions and add further elaboration. I posted here because I saw the quality of responses and the group has impressed me with friendly insight offered.
First I should state that I believe we have 5 Must have features in anything we select as follows: 1) King bed - I am a big guy and I love my wife, but if we are going to live here long tern there is no flexibility on this issue, we need the room. 2) Comfortable shower - As already stated I am a big guy. I need some room in there to get clean. Usually this dictates the shower that is in the bedroom area as opposed to with the throne in a small room. 3) Computer desk - I plan to actually work in the unit. I would assume love seats can be removed and a desk added if need be, but it is a eventual must. 4) Space for the cat litter - we will take 2 cats with us. I see many people have pets so I know it is doable, I just need to ensure we have somewhere better than the living room floor for the litter box. Has anyone ever made a pass through to the basement to solve this issue? Can it be done? 5) Usable kitchen - I like to cook and expect to continue doing so. I am sure many people never use more then the refrigerator, but I plan to cook. I am a little surprised that I have yet to see a magnetic induction cook top in a MH.
After that I am open.
Darrell, thanks for the fifth wheel brand suggestions. We kind of looked at them as afterthoughts, so I have no idea what brands we saw. But I think I saw mostly lower end units. We live in a nice home that is well appointed and if I am considering this for full time living then I expect the same. It will be enough of a shock going from 3500 sq ft to a RV.
Bill, I already feel like I know you due to your posting history. I hoped you would chime in here to help with some technical stuff. I was wondering what a monocoque was and why it was good. Air bag count was another uncertainty (do these bags ever rupture?), and what was a big enough engine is another issue I had no idea how to judge. I am an engineer by degree and will strive to understand it all. How about elaborating on a tag axle. I see some units with similar carrying capacity without one, so why is it good. It looks to me like it would make the unit more stable on the road and less resistant to wind sway, but I read a post by someone who claimed a tag axle was just a substitute for putting in a properly designed axle to start with. As to why a Motor home feels better, I suspect it is because I walk in and they have leather sofas, wood cabinets, and nice flooring. I have these things in my current home and that is what I expect will make me happy in the long run. My wife laughed when I stretched out horizontal on the sofa, but the travel supreme felt comfortable.I have yet to see a leather sofa in a fifth wheel, or even a fabric I would find acceptable. I have seen linoleum floors in them and particle board cabinets, so they have not impressed me so far. They probably have these options, but I have not seen it in my very limited looking. By the way I like light cabinets and interiors as they make it feel roomier to me, so that will not be a problem. From pictures of the dutch star I have seen it seems they have vents in the floor down the center, are they all like that and do these ever bother you. Your point about slides is interesting and well taken. I like them as they make the unit larger, but heck I could afford a newell without slides. Quality is very important to me so in the end I will weigh the decision. To put this in perspective, we bought a Lexus again this year without really shopping for much else. Why? Because past experience and industry surveys make me feel certain we will not have a problem with that car, and I don't think It will ever leave my wife stranded on the roadside. I know I can not afford the Lexus equivalent in a motorhome, but I want to try for it. By the way if we go with a motorhome we will probably tow that car in a trailer, so there is another requirement.
Jon, thanks. I am still confused about hot water options and what is a name brand and what is a generic type of system. Seems some use on demand heaters and others use tanks. We are only beginning the search, and we will look until we find the right unit. I think used is a good value, but the lack of slides in some units is a major functional change.
Ken, I will look hard. My wife is less picky than I on much of this stuff. I want to like the 5th since it is clear I could be close to 100K richer if we went that way, and we all know cash is king in this lifestyle. On the other hand to give it a fair chance I need something that will be comfortable to start or how will I like it in 6 months. As stated above a am a big guy (6'3" 300#) and part of changing lifestyle is a effort to reduce stress and change myself to a healtier me. But as a lifetime member of the big guy club, you have an eye for quality that most people never experience. Thinks like how much a sofa sags, or if a chair feels like a leg is going to break off if I lean the wrong way. Even how sturdy a floor feels when walking on it, or does a step have flex. On one 5th it seemed less that the step was flexing than the frame it was attached to!
Having only looked at a few places so far I am sure we will find more products to our liking, but when the salesman kicked on the generator and turned on the air conditioning in the Travel Supreme Select and as we sat and chatted comfortably, I thought "I could live here". To any salesmen reading you should take heed of that. The allegro may have been nice, but the chemical formaldehyde odor burned our eyes so bad we looked and ran out. And as for 5th's, we kept going out to talk to avoid the sweltering heat inside.
So now my next big question? We would like to rent a unit for a week or two to try out. I looked at the national agency's and they don't rent anything comparable to what I am looking at. Is there a resource where I can find private owners who rent there units? Does anyone have a friend between NYC and Wash DC who may be interested in renting a unit to us. I have found suitable rentals down south, but it seems silly to fly to the rental, and I have yet to find anything decent within reasonable distance of NJ.
Thanks for all your suggestions, Bruce
-- Edited by brucedelta at 19:49, 2007-09-04
hogans1947 said
06:50 PM Sep 4, 2007
Just gotta say it. We have lived in our motorhome for a year and can't imagine having a fifthwheel. We tow a Honda wheels down and the convenience of being able to stop and get in that car to check out places and campgrounds before pulling in with a 40' motorhome and a toad is worth it all. Set up and take down is very easy no matter what the weather is.
That's why there is chocolate and vanilla because we are all so different !!! It's a great life !
Brenda
foxriverguy said
07:21 PM Sep 4, 2007
Motorhome Review Online
Note: This information is from a website no longer on the www. As a newcomer/wannabe to living the full-time RV lifestyle, I found this chart to be extremely helpful. I make no claims as to its accuracy. I am merely passing it along four your edification. The LOWER the score, the better. Approximate date of this information is October of 2006. This table was developed as a result of in-putting hundreds, if not thousands of owner surveys.
Overall Quality Fit and Finish Buy Again Manufacturer Manufacturer Manufacturer 1 Newmar 1.533 Country Coach 1.43 Country Coach 1.30 2 Country Coach 1.57 Beaver 1.63 Tiffin 1.56 3 Beaver 1.63 Newmar 1.66 Newmar 1.58 4 American 1.64 Tiffin 1.83 Beaver 1.67 5 Tiffin 1.76 American 1.86 Four Winds 1.75 6 Four Winds 1.88 Western 1.94 Alfa Leisure 1.85 7 Western 1.88 Four Winds 2.08 American 1.86 8 National 2.02 Winnebago 2.08 Western 1.88 9 R-Vision 2.06 Safari 2.14 R-Vision 1.89 10 Winnebago 2.06 National 2.15 Coachmen 2.08 11 Coachmen 2.08 Itasca 2.19 Safari 2.08 12 Forest River 2.09 Coachman 2.23 Damon 2.15 13 Safari 2.14 Alfa Leisure 2.25 Winnebago 2.19 14 Itasca 2.15 Forest River 2.27 Monaco 2.25 15 Fleetwood 2.16 Monaco 2.33 National 2.25 16 Monaco 2.19 Fleetwood 2.36 Fleetwood 2.30 17 Alfa Leisure 2.20 Damon 2.38 Forest River 2.32 18 Holiday Rambler 2.27 Holiday Rambler 2.41 Rexhall 2.34 19 Damon 2.33 Harney 2.42 Holiday Rambler 2.49 20 Rexhall 2.40 Rexhall 2.47 Itasca 2.62 21 Georgie Boy 2.44 R-Vision 2.50 Georgie Boy 2.93 22 Harney 2.46 Georgie Boy 2.72 Harney 3.40 Ave 2.12 2.04 2.15
Foretravel was the only manufacturer with a perfect score, earning a 1 in every category.
I hope this helps. Sorry about the formating.
George
bjoyce said
07:38 PM Sep 4, 2007
Short answers: * Monocoque and semi-monocoque explained on RVersOnline - Monocoque Chassis faqs . * Air bags do rupture. They are very tough, but it happens. They are fixable but the ride to the repair shop is no fun, but doable. * The vents in the floor are for the propane furnace and have not been a problem for us. Most are not “in the center”. Radiant heat is only available on some expensive rigs. * Most RVs come with a combination electric/propane hot water heater in the 6 to 12 gallon range. They take about 20 minutes to reheat using a combination of propane and electricity. Most people run them on electricity in campgrounds and propane when dry camped or when they pay by the kilowatt for electricity. * Most new RVs have the chemicals, the dealer should have aired the Allegro out before you tried it. * Rental RVs are bottom of the line units that they expect to be abused. * Computer desk options are now common on units you order. Plus there are good woodworkers by the manufacturers in Indiana and Oregon that can do great custom work. * Towing an enclosed trailer means you need a 10,000lb hitch and the GCWR needs to be 10,000lbs higher than the GVWR. At least you will be able to back up with the trailer attached. Makes it a bit harder to stop and make a quick run to the store or to get help in the car than towing four wheels down. You might want a 500hp or larger engine.
Longer answers: * Tag axles are needed when you need to carry more than 20,000lbs in back, which is the legal limit for one axle most places. They added them in the past on some gas motorhomes to use smaller tires. Most tags on diesels can be raised at low speeds to aid in turning sharp. There are many motorhomes out there with a tag axle that look like they have great carrying capacity, but it is not where you can put stuff since their front axles are close to the maximum. They should help your ride.
* Aqua hot and Hydro hot are both made by the company now called “Aqua hot”, the Hydro hot is smaller. They make a diesel furnace and hot water heater combination that works really well and costs $7000 to $10000 extra in a new unit. They don’t retrofit in. Every other year you have to do about some maintenance that costs about $100 in parts and a few hours labor, maybe your own. Most people are very happy with these units though some have had lemons. Some bus conversion people will use a bus diesel furnace which does not handle hot water. The Aqua hot and Hydro hots can supply continuous hot water. Since it runs on diesel these are only for diesel motorhomes.
We have been full-timing in a motorhome since July 2003. We still like it and it fits us.
Sandra said
07:19 AM Sep 5, 2007
Don't know if you're interested but a friend of mine has a 2003 Travel Supreme Select for sale. Check it out at:
http://www.buysell.com/root/detail/BC/2003_Motorhomes/4496/64219662/42_FT_LUXURY_DIESEL_pusher_c_w.aspx - -
There are links in the post that will send you to places where the Moho is listed for sale.
Sandra
Here4Now said
09:26 AM Sep 5, 2007
Hey, Bruce. We'll look for a tall guy at the Hershey show! That's where we're headed. We'll be dry camping at the golf course Tuesday and Wednesday night before heading down to Intercourse, PA for a week.
We are 15 months into our full-time experience. We ended up with a new Allegro Bay. My husband likes new not only so he can get exactly what he wants, but is also able to maintain it exactly as he wants. Even the depreciation that comes with driving it off the lot is worth it to him to know its history from "conception."
In addition to everything already mentioned, cargo carrying capacity was high on our list of considerations. Many models have the storage space but not the capacity OR the capacity but not the storage space. We found a mh that provided us with both. However, there wouldn't be so many models if there weren't so many preferences!
Check out the Tiffin Phaeton 2008 models. That's a diesel with quad slides. They have a computer desk option and a nice-sized kitchen with an expand-an-island. The 40' and 42' also have a king bed option.
For ourselves, we like to park in a central location and take day trips from there. Driving a diesel truck around town or out to the boonies for sightseeing is not something we wanted to do....not only that, there's no way to "sneak" out of a campground to get an early morning start.
However, there wouldn't be so many models if there weren't so many preferences! Enjoy the hunt!
Luvglass said
10:52 AM Sep 5, 2007
Bruce,
You've correctly identified the 2 seperate decisions that you need to make before finding your perfect new home.
The motor home / fifth wheel decision is the same as the stick house ranch vs colonial question. Neither one is better, they just have different positives and negatives.
The quality thing is very similar to your experience with boats, only magnified by 10. It sometimes seems that there are hundreds of brands to choose from. The problem comes for full timers in the fact that the industry caters to a customer base that is overwhelmingly made up of vacationers, who according to the RVIA, spend an average of only 31 days a year in their RV. Hence, there are a lot of attractive options to visually tempt you that probably won't stand up well to 24/7/365 usage.
Going to Hershey is about the best thing you can do to answer your ranch / colonial question. There are literally hundreds and hundreds of RV's to inspect, and you should be able to come away with a gut feel as to which you are.
The quality thing is a little bit more difficult. I would recommend finding out if any unit you're interested in is warranted for full time use, and it's carrying capacity ( after loading liquids ). You're probably going to want to add in excess of 3000#. We were suprised when we did the same as you at Hershey, how many manufacturers straight out told us their unit is not designed for full time use.
Lastly, I would join the RV Consumer Group and read their ratings on the type of RV your interested in. They represent the only independent view on the industry, similar to Consumer Reports, and will at least tell you the specific models to avoid.
Good luck, this is an exciting time.
Fred
-- Edited by Luvglass at 11:54, 2007-09-05
foxriverguy said
04:00 PM Sep 5, 2007
Hi Bruce,
You mentioned used motorhomes. This website specializes only in used diesel pushers. They always seem to have a wide variety in their inventory:
http://www.dieselpushers.us
Hope all the information you are getting is helpful. Can you imagine getting this much honest input if you were looking for a used car?
George
brucedelta said
08:09 AM Sep 6, 2007
Bill, Thanks for all the answers and the link on the tech stuff. I Have devoured that site as they have much good info. The next think I need to understand is braking. What is a Jacobs brake vs exhaust brake vs air brakes vs disc. I obviously know some of the basic answers, but I am not sure what is desirable.
We will be staying in Hershey Fri and Sat nights, need to book a room today as a matter of fact since my wife just got the official word she does not have to go to Europe for business that weekend.
Sandra, your friends Travel Supreme looks very nice, but I must admit to being concerned about the brand, as it seems about the top end (price wise) for non-monocoque chassis and I never see anything about them on the boards. We will see on this front.
Fox river - thanks for the chart, it is a good starting point for names, and I do like the pusher web site.
I also agree the thought of driving a diesel dually around town as a everyday car is one of the thinks that makes me believe I want a motor home with a tow behind. I am not sure if putting the IS250 in a trailer is right or we should get rid of it for a toad'able car. We like the IS and are only 6 mos into a 36 mo lease, so it would be hard to get rid of, but we will see how fast the house sells. We had a second agent in last night who suggested a listing price $150 K more than the first, so we need to get a 3rd and fourth I think. Our home is unique and hard to comp, but the difference through me. We have a home 2 doors up that sold for $1.2M in the last 30 months and 2 doors the other way sold for $300K during that period, they are very different obviously, so it makes comps hard.
We made contact with a local RV club member who invited us to a rally this weekend, and I think we will stop by.
I already had ordered the RV consumer group package. I do wonder how they get their data, that seems far from clear to me. I mean basically how do you get samples of all these units to rate? Are they owner reported ratings, or manufacturer reported etc. How consistent are the metrics if they are owner reported? It is not mentioned on their web site, but maybe the package will provide understanding, we shall see.
I am still looking for a rental as I would like to go to NC next month in a RV.
Thank you all for your input, I appreciate the candid feedback.
PS - for those with datastorm what kinds of speeds do you get. If you have never checked the site dslreports.com has a tools section with speedtests.
-- Bruce
-- Edited by brucedelta at 15:58, 2007-09-06
bjoyce said
08:59 AM Sep 6, 2007
I also know the sellers for the Travel Supreme and it is a very nice motorhome and a great brand. Susan and Rick have it listed on about every online RV sales site. I know the motorhome has been well taken care of. They did pull an enclosed trailer behind it with a car and motorcycle inside.
I am surprised you are not seeing much on Travel Supreme since they are well liked for both their fifth wheels and motorhomes. The owners are relatives of the owners of Newmar and the factories are only a few miles apart. Travel Supreme motorhomes are all mid to high end diesels.
Since a diesel does not have much engine braking power on its own there are three methods to add braking power - exhaust brake, internal (Jake) brake, and transmission retarder. Only Foretravel uses the transmission retarder method but it is about the best and costs $20,000 extra from Allison transmission. Next best is the internal brake, known as a Jake brake. It fits inside the engine and normally has two settings. When a semi-truck brakes and makes so much noise, that is an unmuffled Jake brake. Motorhomes come with muffled Jake brakes and they are normally found in 400hp or larger motorhomes. Most motorhomes under 400hp come with exhaust brakes, normally from Pacbrake, which are external to the engine. This does the job fairly well and is what we have. Jacob, who is the company behind "Jake" also make exhaust brakes.
For satellite internet in general join the Yahoo group RVInternetBySatellite . For more Datastorm specific information join DatastormUsers .
Realize that the guy who wrote up things up on RVersOnline was the president of a Monaco club and has real biases. I know and like the guy, but he was never scared of spending money.
Bruce: I think you are going down the path of wanting the "best" of everything and not compromising. Since cost does matter you are going to have to scale something back. The guy who taught me the most about chassis construction drives a frame rail chassis since he couldn't justify the price increase or how much older a used motorhome had to be at his price point. He is happy with it and most of us with frame rail chassis are doing fine. You are doing the right thing in studying hard. I worry you will be unhappy compromising on your desires and that is not a good start for a full-timer.
DLSeeAmerica said
09:37 AM Sep 6, 2007
The DataStorm was our one "splurge" when it came to full-timing. Since we use the web to research almost everything we do, we felt it was worth it to us to have simple, dependable access whether we're in a park or out in the boonies somewhere. We expect to boondock a lot, so it's also an "investment" in that it will let us save park fees and still have Internet access.
We're very happy that we made the decision, but as Bill says, it depends on how it fits your budget. If you're not a big Internet user or you're going to be in quality parks all the time, the "investment" may not return.
As far as performance, we consistently get over 800 kbps down and 150 kbps up. We were used to cable, and honestly, it's rare that we notice we're not on cable anymore, so for practical purposes, it's as fast as anything you'll see anywhere. We were in a park last week that had Wi-Fi, but it was only running at around 200/200, so we were really glad we had our dish!
Here4Now said
11:15 AM Sep 6, 2007
We, too, "splurged" on a datastorm. Our main reason at the time was the guarantee of a secure connection to do banking. However, it is one of the best purchases we made going full-time. We are constantly researching SOMETHING....campgrounds, travel info, vets, docs, hair dressers, location of favorite stores, etc....and having access to e-mail any time, any place is great! We've also subscribed to an e-mail fax service which has been a great convenience. Having the whole system is a great convenience!
Our download rate was 827 kbps and upload was 188 kbps. We have found our speeds to be very adequate.
brucedelta said
05:01 PM Sep 6, 2007
I saw Susan and Ricks coach before and it does look just about perfect for what we want. It is the right layout with a desk and king bed, and I loved the flooring the first time I saw the pictures. For their sake I hope they sell it before we are ready to pull the trigger, but if it is still on the market then I will make a trip to see it. I am thinking that Spring is our time frame for realistically selling the house.
It is interesting that I can find many mentions of Newmar owners loving their rig, I do not get the same sense for Travel Supreme. They are also absent from the above list posted by Fox River.
I always go down the path of wanting to find out what is the best and why. Then I can make a choice on where to sacrifice. Cost is a concern, and buying used is a concession to that right off the bat since I know I can not afford what I want new. For about the same price of this 2003 TS, I could get a 1998 Prevost or a 2000 Newell, etc. I just want to be aware of what choices I am making and understand them, I realize I will not get perfection in a choice I can afford.
Do all diesel engines have one of these braking systems. I notice they are frequently mentioned, butt not always. For instance Susan and Ricks copy makes no mention of any braking system. Is it possible they do not have one?
As for Datastorm, I should have put it on the must list but I assume I would add it to any coach I bought. I assumed the download speeds are fine, but really wanted to know about upload speeds. I may even keep my aircard and the datastorm for redundancy, I will have to decide if the $600 a year is worthwhile.
I must admit I am learning much from discussing this.
bjoyce said
08:59 AM Sep 7, 2007
Susan and Rick's coach has engine braking, Rick is a former truck driver and would insist on it plus I know Spartan always includes it. Some older diesels, like Safari, do not have engine braking (or air ride). The new Front Engine Diesel from Freightliner does not have engine braking or air ride.
A Datastorm is an add-on unit.
Upload speeds vary some with Datastorm/Hughes.net with load and such. I have the newest modem and the Pro plan with my tripod system, which is same plan as Datastorm. My upload speeds vary a bit, I just ran a test using VisualWare Speed test and the numbers were 994/84.1. The speed test people all seem to like using Java for the speed tests and that is not a way to be consistent. I like real world testing and I find I can upload a 2MB webpage anywhere from about 3 minutes to 15 minutes, with 5 to 7 being normal.
If you have an aircard do not expect EVDO speeds everywhere you go, many places are at 1X. Satellite internet will beat 1X handily. If your aircard is not from Verizon or Sprint, you won't have the speed or coverage on the road you want. Most Wi-Fi systems give you speeds about like 1X.
The people I know who have both an EVDO aircard and satellite work like this: 1) Do I have EVDO or EVDO Rev A? Use the aircard. 2) I only have 1X. Use the dish unless it is difficult to find a hole to point through. 3) Only 1X, staying more than one night, and the satellite dish won't work where camped. Move. 4) No aircard internet and the satellite dish won't work where camped. Move.
freeme2rv2007 said
08:47 AM Sep 9, 2007
Dear Bruce,
Welcome to a very informative and supportive community. My husband and I are in our early 40's, don't have children and began fulltiming in April. We work a business on the road and also workcamp to make ends meet. Although we never rv'ed before becoming fulltimers, we knew we could live in a small space together and not kill each other. We researched for 2 years before buying our rig and taking the plunge. I so encourage you to please rent a RV before you buy one. I know they won't be comprable to what you will want to fulltime in, but at least you will have the experience of seeing how well you do together in a confined space, making decisions on where to go and park, learning the systems, and just getting a general feel of life on the road. Please make sure you both are on the same page on making this life decision. Giving up a house and possessions is emotional. Be prepared for that. (But it so worth it in the end)
I suggest that you look at a New Horizons 5th wheel. When you described your ideal rig, I looked around ours and said check, check, check. We have solid oak cabinets, parquet floors, a designated place for the cat litter box (under the w/d unit, there is a cut out door for access for the cats, and outside access to remove the box for cleaning.I'll have to email a pic.) a full size shower that both of us can fit in if we sqeeze a little, a great office space, and a nice kitchen. Please look at www.horizonsrv.com. We bought ours used, but it was perfect for us. We just changed the interior to a leather sofa, recovered the dinette cushions, and relaminated the counters. It is rated as one of the highest quality units. If buying new, they customize to your specs. I can't say enough nice things about the company and our rig.
If you are going w/ a 5er, buy the rig and then match your truck to it, not vice versa. Hope to chat w/ ya again.
Nancy & Richard Lindsey
2001 New Horizons 34RLSSS (Toto)
2007 GMC 3500 Diesel dually (Oz)
"Music makes our wheels go round"
brucedelta said
07:03 PM Sep 9, 2007
I would like to see pictures of your cat arrangement. I looked at new horizon and they will be in Hershey so we will see them next weekend. Do you travel with the cats in the trailer or in your tow vehicle, and if in the trailer do you worry about it getting to hot.
I like allot of the space I see in the fifth wheels now that I looked at some of the suggested full timer brands. The part I have trouble getting my head around is not having a car. I do not think I would like to double tow as I expect to be in the east to often. On the other hand I see some of these articles about HDT tow vehicles. Many have a "condo" of some sort, has anyone ever seen the condo sacrificed for a car carrier. I see car haulers do it all the time where they have 1 or 2 on the truck and then more in a trailer. The other thought I had after looking at the new horizons layouts was using the toy hauler garage concept and making it my office when the car is not in there. Since these things seemed targeted to race cars I assume a passenger car would be OK. Oh well just thinking out loud, and I got a while to go before deciding.
I did find a local individual to rent a 40' Holiday Rambler from at a reasonable price, so we are going to do that. I also started listing my old stuff on eBay. (anyone need a laser disc player).
I am excited about Hershey as we will get out of holiday services on Friday and head right up there to stay Fri and sat night. -- Bruce
-- Edited by brucedelta at 20:59, 2007-09-09
Donna162 said
10:04 PM Sep 9, 2007
Another option if you go with the truck and 5ver, is do like Howard and Linda. They have a Jeep Liberty that one of them drives while the other drives the truck with the 5ver. They use walkie talkies to communicate while driving. They seem to really like this set up.
DLSeeAmerica said
11:44 AM Sep 10, 2007
After a lot of thought about all these options, we decided to "travel lite" with an Arctic Fox 27-5L and a Ford F-250. Since we were moving from a 31-foot sailboat, the 27 foot fifth wheel was more space than we were used to, and we still haven't managed to fill it up. By going with a smaller fiver (GVWR 13,000) we are able to tow with a Ford F-250 diesel that gets almost 20 MPG when not towing and makes for comfortable sightseeing expeditions from base camp.
Arctic Foxes are 4-star rated by RV Consumer Group, but not listed as "full-timing" rigs. In the case of the Arctic Foxes, this has more to do with trim and polish than the underlying structure, and based on others experiences, we're confident that the rig will outlast us.
brucedelta said
10:46 PM Sep 25, 2007
Well we went to Hersey and have had some time to digest it all, so I thought I would report back. Basically spent 3 days there and to say it was exhausting would be an understatement. I think we got to most diesel pushers there and some other choices. We checked out 5th wheels and at this point I am pretty sure the class A is right for us.
So in no particular order here is what we saw.
Tiffan - I will start here since this is probably the most perplexing. I really wanted us to like the product because they are well thought of and they have nice layouts. Shirley was very turned off by our lack of ability to get the attention or information from anyone staffing the very large booth. I was turned off by the fact that every coach seemed to have small things broken that just did not seem apparent in others. Additionally I looked at the weight rating stickers on every coach where I could find them. Without the tag axle (most at this booth) the weight ratings showed a carrying capacity that dropped down to 1200# on an alegro bus. We were not able to have any discussion of the products with a sales rep nor did we find a brochure.
Newmar - We really liked the product here and I would have to rank a Duchstar 4317 as the leading contender for a new coach so far. I liked the factory people and what we saw on display. They offered test drives in a Kountry Coach with the comfort drive. Since this was my first ever RV driving experience I am not sure if the Comfort drive is revolutionary or not, but I did not crash the thing so that was good. There are some interesting new vs used issues here, but I think I will start a new thread for that discussion.
Travel Supreme - There is very little not to like about these coaches. They seem well built and have all the features one could want. The select may be a top choice on the used front, but I would probably take a Duchstar over a Alante new.
Alfa - If I was buying only layout I probably would have jumped at the rear bathroom model as it seemed perfect for us. They have done some different things but I am not comfortable with their decision to use basement air conditioning. I have my doubts that it can get the job done to keep the coach cool in hot weather, and it takes away allot of storage. They also clearly want to deliver a standard cookie cutter coach, and I did not like their exterior graphics/logos at all.
Alpine - Very nice product with many classy touches. I could see myself in a Alpine, but they are probably out of our price range. Since there was a major change in 2008 looks I am doubting a used unit would be a good fit due to the now dated styling.
Foretravel - Nothing wrong with these coaches. Price would limit me to looking at the used side, but I very well may do that.
Forrest River - Biggest disappointment. I do not think I could settle for a coach that did not have a CCC rating of at least 3000#, and I did not say any unit they had on display rated over 2000#, most were 1200 to 1600.
Monaco - I liked the Camelot ( I think ) and will have to revisit these as this is apparently the most straight on newmar competitor we saw based on price and apparent build quality. We have a dealer not to far, a trip may be in order soon.
Pacifica - Clearly not the desired build quality and craftsmanship I felt we wanted. They had the full wall slider on display and the layout was more family oriented than 2 people full timing.
Gulfstream (Travelstar I think) - Another booth where we got no attention. they were same dealer as Travel Supreme, so the next day when the travel supreme tried to close and I said I was not ready for that level expenditure he began pushing the gulfstream. I related the lack of customer service we experienced and he said management was aware of the issue the prior day and wanted it corrected. He then took us over and went through the product, but in reality I was spending more effort defending the full court press sales strategy than viewing the coach.
We saw some others such as tuscany and such, but none struck our fancy. Notably absent were Country Coach and Beaver, both of which I hopped to see. Additionally the lack of suitable lunch food was unfortunate.
We did look at the renegade and haulmark Super C class units and they were much nicer than expected. I am just not sure I see the benefit if we are not towing a horse or race garage. I may try to drive one of these to see if I like the ride any better. As they push the good ride these units offer over a class A.
The show did raise some interesting new vs used issues and I will spill my thoughts on another thread for that subject.
Here4Now said
08:21 AM Sep 26, 2007
We're sorry about your disappointing experience with Tiffin. As Tiffin owners, we hung out at the Tiffin area a couple of times for extended periods checking out the new products. We noticed they were very busy negotiating deals. Now we know that's not an excuse for ignoring potential customers...only an explanation and attests to the fact they were probably understaffed. We even overheard one of the sales people express concern that they might lose a sale because they didn't have enough help.
RickV1955 said
08:49 AM Sep 27, 2007
I thought that I'd add my two cents worth here.
We are not full timers yet, but we have been doing our research (going to RV shows, dealershps, etc...) for about a year or so now.
We have also gotten a great deal of information from this site, as well as other sites/forums, such as the Escapees forum, etc...
I will say that the folks here are extremely knowlegeable for everything RV and are happy to share and give great advice.
It is absolutely correct that there seems to be two distinct groups of "full time" RVers. Those that decide to go with Motorhomes, and those that decide that a fifth wheel is a better choice.
We have pretty much decided to go with a fifth wheel for the following reasons:
1. Although we've literally looked at hundreds of (both) motorhomes and fifth wheels, the
absolute bottom line for us is, a fifth wheel has much more usable living space.
It's like a little mini-condo on wheels...
For us, the motorhomes we've looked at are simply too small.
2. We, like you Brucedelta, have a list of "must have" items we want on our future RV home.
Also, like you, a King Size bed is a MUST for us. We have had a King bed for years and
years in our "stick house" and this is simply something we want to have in an RV.
I would say that probably 98% or more of the motor homes we have looked at, only
have a Queen Sized bed (or smaller)...
We have found that only "some" of the top/high end motor homes have King Beds
options.
3. Also, about 98% of all motorhomes we have looked at have the main TV situated
above the drivers compartment (which is pretty much the living room area - there is
only a "curtain" that is pulled across the windshield/drivers compartment for privacy
which we really don't like. The TV situated in this position is (in our opinion) not a
good place for viewing. It tends to make us have to crank our necks in an unnatural
way, and which seems would be really uncomfortable.
1. Although, there are a (very) few floor plans that offer a TV mid-way in the living
area....again, this is only on the most high end units.
4. Another issue for us is, for the most part, motorhomes have a "booth-type" dinette
area (which is not a good setup for "big guys" in my opinion). A "free standing dinette"
is another MUST have for us.
Again, free standing dinettes are available, but mostly in the higher end units.
5. We found that workmanship/quality is just as good (or better) in the higher end fifth
wheels as in most all (except the absolute top end...$1,000,000.00 units) motorhomes.
Higher end fifth wheels have excellent quality cabinets, Corian or Granite countertops,
quality carpeting or a huge variety of top quality flooring options.
Some of the units were are considering are:
A. Double Tree - Elite Suites or Mobile Suites
B. KZ Escalate pr Tory Pine
C. Peterson Industried - Excel
D. Newmar - Country Aire
6. There is a LOT more headroom in fifth wheels as opposed to motorhomes.
These are some of the reasons why we have chosen to go with a fifth wheel. Most of the top end fifth wheels have an MSRP of somewhere around $100,000.00 or so (and we have been told by several "previous" RV salemen that we should never ever pay more than 75% of the MSRP on a new fifth wheel....or motorhome for that matter). We haven't found
a motorhome that was at all acceptable for us of under a minimum of about $250,000.00 of so, which is a lot more than we want to spend (and even with these top end units, there really isn't much difference in most floorplans...) Obviously, a nice used unit would be cheaper.
As has been said here, this is really a personal choice, and everyone's different... the thing that intially caught my eye was your initial post of a King Sized bed as a MUST.
Although my wife has always been "sold" on a fifth wheel, I have tried my best to find a motorhome that I really like, and has the room and living space that I would feel comfortable living in......I just haven't been able to find one.
There are obviously Pros to choosing a motorhome:
1. User friendly when traveling
2. Ability to pull a "toad" so that you don't have to rely on a large tow vehicle to drive
as an only vehicle.
3. Ease of setup in inclemment weather (although I have heard many fifth wheel owners
who dispute this).
4. More comfortable ride when traveling.
5. Sitting up higher when driving.
Just to name a few.
So these are just some of the things that have led us toward choosing a fifth wheel over a motorhome. It is a personal choice, but it is wise to really do some research and see as many different kinds of RV's as possibe so that ultimately, you will make the right choice.
I thought you might be interested in some of the things that we've found in our search so far.
Good luck on your search, and maybe we'll run into each other out there one of these days.
Rick and Debi
Future Full Timers
RVDude said
09:30 AM Sep 27, 2007
Rick: Great post... I would add... It all boils down to floor plans. Look for the plan that meets your needs. And then, sit in that floor plan for hours and mock everything you will do in it. Pretend to cook, sit in the bath, take a shower, hole up during a a couple days of rain, and on and on. Imagine - by sitting in it - what it would be like to use. Ask yourself the tough q's like where would I put such and such, how would I do my hobby, what would I change... etc... Think how you'll travel, what you'll do while on the road and the like... Then you'll get a better idea of what works ... for you!
BTW $1M is now, sadly, not even the lowest entry point for "absolute high end" MH - new at least. The top of the scale now runs up to $2.5M and starts well over $1.5M. It's hard to even find a used Prevost conversion for $1M!
Happytrails said
09:41 AM Sep 27, 2007
I agree there are so many pros and cons toward both fifth wheels and motorhomes that the debate could go on forever. It really depends on what you personally want. Neither is right or wrong and everyone has their own personal reasons for purchasing what they do. We almost bought a fifth wheel, a Mobile Suites or Elite Suites. The thing that kept haunting us was the truck needed for towing this size unit. We just could never get a comfort zone with the size truck we would have to purchase and would become our transportation when parked somewhere. Everyone should read the article in www.dmbruss.com. Go to the sidebar marked "safety" and read the article called "a sad story." It is an eye opener. We just didn't want to drive a big truck. The weight was always an issue for us. Many new floorplans in motorhomes now offer the living area in a different location and thus the TV is no longer always up front. These are not always the high end motorhomes either. I think the motorhome industry is trying to give the consumer more options. I know the kingsize bed is more common in a fifth wheel but there are some motorhomes that have those also. The bottom line is that this issue is personal. A pro for me may be a con for someone else. It is not an easy decision, if it were, there wouldn't be so much discussion on it. Good luck on your search. It is an important decision for you and your wife and one that you have to be happy with and live with. It is really no different than searching for a sticks and bricks. There are millions of different houses with different floorplans in different locations. Our house will sell when someone comes through and we have what they are looking for. We are all still full-timers and that is what matters most.
RVDude said
10:06 AM Sep 27, 2007
Happy brings up another good point, Figure out all that you will carry and make sure you can haul it. It has been said, and I would concur, that many rigs - be they trailer or MHs - are overweight and/or improperly sized. For example, non-tag axle MHs have incredibly minimal CCC (cargo carrying capacity) often on the order of only 1k-2k lbs meaning most are overloaded with just 2 passengers, some clothes, and a six-pack! On the towed side, many trailers are pulled by less than adequate trucks or the trailer itself overloaded. All to save a buck until your equipment kills someone - like the "sad story".
Frankly, my search BEGAN not with floor plan, brand, or style but with how can I carry the loads I expected to carry. For me, that parameter alone established what I had to have.
The whole weight/load/sizing topic is typically a very emotional one - and I certainly do not want to start any debate here. Yet, it is so simple and factual as you simply match the numbers on the labels and the scale and err on the side of overcapacity. The emotion must come in when people go over and fail to do the difficult things of reduce or upgrade.
mikeway said
08:11 PM Sep 27, 2007
A couple items regarding motor homes. Air suspension is pretty important. 4 bags would be the minimum, the more the merrier. Safari started using air bags in '99 and I had a pac brake on a '95. Harney is a dead Safari line.
Beaver is rarely mentioned on this forum but look at the "fit and finish chart" and find that Beaver and Safari do well. Beaver had 8 bags and a "Jake Brake" in '98, I have one. Look at a 5 year old Beaver, you will be surprised.
Safari (Magnum Chassis) built the chassis for Safari and Beaver until about 2002 when they were acquired by Monaco. Alpine does their own chassis as does Country Coach and current diesel powered Monaco brands. Western RV ( Dolphin and Tradewinds/Islander) also build their own. Most diesel coaches have some pass through basement storage.
Initial fit and finish is very important but even more so is manufacturer warranty and service. I would consider that a major fraction of the decision. While most major brands do pretty well in this department I quit looking at a couple of brands after reading the dis-satisfaction of their current owners. Check with owners and see how well they support the "previously loved" coaches.
Seriously consider a used coach, no sense in losing the big bucks in depreciation. You can also thank the first owner for getting the bugs out. A king bed and computer desk are easily added.
Mike
bjoyce said
07:26 AM Sep 28, 2007
Correction to what mikeway said: Western RV is Alpine,which builds its own chassis. National RV builds the Dolphin, Tradewinds and Islander and they buy chassis from Workhorse (Dolphin), Freightliner (Tradewinds) and Spartan (Islander). When National RV owned Country Coach they used a Country Coach chassis on the Islander up to 2003.
We used to own a 2002 Dolphin on a Workhorse chassis and were very involved with the owners club. Some very good friends own a 2003 Islander. We came close to buying a 2005 Alpine. You are not going to find air bags on a gas motorhome and on a front engine diesel except as after market installs. There are still ways to improve the ride on those without using air bags.
When you discuss Monaco and Country Coach you have to differentiate between their low end diesels and the high end. A Monaco Dynasty (higher end) is a lot different than a Monaco Knight (low end), including the equivalent Holiday Rambler, Safari and Beaver versions. A Country Coach Allure (low end) is a lot different than a Magma (higher end). The chassis, the features, the options, all change between the low and high end.
This is my first post and I will provide some background. I think we are close to where Howard and Linda were when they started out in 2004/5. We are also in out mid 40's, no children, and basically have been finding life not going the way we want it. Most people would consider us successful with a very nice home and 2 Lexus's in the driveway, so we basically are"successful", we are just not happy or fulfilled. Therefore we have been talking about a major change for a while, but were uncertain of what that change should be. When our real estate taxes crossed $12K/yr (now $12,800) I began trying to talk my wife into selling but she needed to know where we would go to. We looked at condo's and town homes etc, but found nothing to our liking without spending a million (which we do not have). So it is recently we decided that our major change should be into a RV as there is so much of the country we have never seen or experienced. Basically we are thinking of going out full time until we come upon something we want to do more. I am not in a position to give up working altogether, but believe I am in a field where I could give up my current stress filled job and earn $50k working remotely with only a Internet and phone connection, so we will see if I am correct or we go broke. So I think Fred (luvglass) had my favorite sentiment about this issue, which was "I find myself more sorry for the things I didn't try, than the ones I did that didn't work out", so with that in mind we have been interviewing real estate agents and looking at RV's. We should net almost $250K selling our home and that is where I am targeting the top end of our budget. Obviously stretching further is doable, but then one of use needs to earn enough to make the payments.
Our first question is the fiver vs diesel pusher. Many people here and on all boards think a fiver is the way to go for full time. I have yet to walk into a fiver that I look at and think I could live in. Maybe it is just that I have yet to look at any high quality brands, or any equipped for full time, but I just do not get a comfy feeling on this front I want to like a fiver as the price is much more sensible and the idea of not having to tow a car seems appealing. But in our limited local looking we have yet to see a generator equipped unit with the solid wood cabinets and solid counter tops, tile flooring and such that we see on a DP. We plan on going to Hershey in 2 weeks so we will see more there I assume. On the DP side we have looked at The Allegro Bus, Travel Supreme, and Country Coach. All relatively quickly to just answer the question could we live in one of these. I am not opposed to buying a used unit and probably will do so if we decide on a higher end unit. But the bottom line was that I felt certain I could live comfortably in a Travel supreme select. I look forward to seeing a Dutch Star as they seem well regarded and I like the layouts.
So with that in mind I would like to ask a few questions or start discussions. I am familiar with boats and come from that frame of reference. In boating I know based on years of experience what are good high quality brands and what may be more price sensitive lines. There is also the concept of lowering the price by eliminating frills or having many frills and elimination of the quality. Price usually gives some indication of pecking order, but it is far from a complete picture, so how do we best get that perspective quickly about this issue. Clearly Country Coach positions themselves as a Quality Leader, but the Tiffen Allegro looks reasonable at a more modest price. Am I better off with a 5 year old Country coach or a new tiffen is what I need to think about. In the boating world this quality is best expressed by how many screws and parts end up on the floor after a rough trip. Will I end up finding loose screws lying around after every road trip on a lower end brand?
Bruce,
I'm a fifthwheel owner but we looked at a lot of motorhomes. I know that Tiffin stands behind their product even after it is out of warranty. Newmar has an excellent reputation and Country Coach is a top line unit. I know that a lot of people advocate the Cummings Diesel with the Spartan chasis. I would suggest that you check out Norm Payne's website - he's been fulltiming since 1999 and just purchased a new Dutch Star in 2006. He has a lot of motorhome information on his site that could help you in deciding. Norm's website is http://seeya-downtheroad.com.
By the way, when you get into the top end fifthwheel's they are outfitted with solid cabinetry as well as a lot of options that you find on motorhomes. Mobile Elite, Royals International, Travel Supreme, Kountry Star to mention a few.
Darrell
Most mid to lower end motorhomes use a frame rail chassis and this includes all gas ones. This includes the Spartan used in my Dutch Star, all Freightliners, and many other products. Given enough time a frame rail chassis will loosen and flex and will not drive as well as when it was new. Ten years will show some impact, but there are many frame rail motorhomes that are 20 years old out there still doing fine.
Most higher end motorhomes and true buses are monocoque chassis, where parts of the walls add to the stiffness of the chassis, this includes Country Coach, Newell and Foretravel. If you are in it for the long term, decades really, then monocoque is the way to go. But you pay for it. If you want a really huge engine, over 450 hp or so, then I would recommend a monocoque chassis since it adds stiffness you need to deal with the twist that big engine is putting on the frame.
Alpine Coach makes its own variant chassis that has about the best drive experience for a motorhome. But their quality has not always been good, so look closely. We almost bought an Alpine instead of a Dutch Star.
How many air bags are on each axle makes a big difference in ride and how the motorhome handles curves. That means no air bags is worse.
CAT and Cummins both make good engines and there are plenty of places to work on them both. Some high end motorhomes use Detroit Diesels, which is common in real buses. At the same horsepower the Cummins normally has an edge on torque over a CAT, so it will climb hills just a bit better. A 350 to 400hp engine is a good match for motorhomes less than 35,000 lbs. Side radiators are better and above about 350hp they seem to be required.
Why is a motorhome feeling better for you? What is appealing to you about the ones you like? How do you intend to travel? Will you need the RV usable with the slides in? Do you need slides at all, if not you can get some incredible deals on older very well made motorhomes. Have you looked closely at storage both above and below? Are you going to dry camp much?
Most like dark cabinets when they look at RVs and then many dislike them when they have to stay inside in dreary weather since it is so dark. To others they still like the warm look of dark cabinets even in dreary weather. This is just an example where each of us has a different opinion.
Hi Bruce,
First welcome to the site. Hopefully you will get a lot of good information here. A lot of the information above is great and very helpful. In our case when we were deciding to fulltime we had the same issues. We decided on a MH DP for several reasons. We wanted to have a car when we were parked and still have storage space in the car, we bought a Saturn Vue. Went with the pusher for the storage space in the basement. We have heard a lot of stories on new MH’s from friends and the problems that they had. We went with a used unit; it had about 40,000 miles on it that is just about a brake-in time for a diesel. That way we hoped all of the problems were taken care of. So far it has been great and we love our home, and have not had any problems. We will state one thing and that is if this is going to be your home, get the hydro-hot system for your heat and domestic hot water. When we were looking we had a lot of MH to look at and we are sure you will get your fill at Hershey. For us when we walked into our unit we just knew it, and it was right for us. Like you in your assessment of boats, I owned a campground for 13 years and a lot of the information we gathered was first hand. Good luck in your new adventure, hope to meet you on the road sometime.
Welcome Bruce glad you joined .
Here's my take on it, Its about personal choice and budget. Personal choice is, how comfortable you and especially your spouse feels in it. And budget is what you want to afford and can.
We have gone from a 34ft Class A to a 40ft Fifth wheel. Our decision was made after researching (forever) and actually living in the motorhome for 2 months, it became quite clear that we wanted more room, higher ceilings, more cabinet storage and pure living space, those were our main considerations.
When looking at the larger DP'ers 40'+, one thing kept sticking out, they all looked the same ! (low flat ceiling front to back) Drivers area takes away quite a bit of actual living space and no matter if you looked at a Newmar King Aire or at the Dutchstar the only real difference was opulence and price (sure I know ,there are chassis and engine differences) But when you come down to it, it was still just a box on wheels with a big expensive engine pushing it.
We looked at Fifthwheels when visiting the various "RV SHOWS" but like you, could not find one that impressed us, we kept comparing them to the big diesel pushers overall quality.
We also had our budget to think about, should we go into debt with a DP or be debt free +++ with a 5'ver and a pickup ?
After some sleepless nights I went to look at a new Dutchstar, while I was there I stopped in to look at a Newmar Torrey Pine fifthwheel, instantly I was converted ? It had everything we had been looking for, room ,solid suface counters ,high ceilings and all solid maple cabinets that stretched all the way to the ceiling, its was huge ! Called my wife and and we made a trip back to dealer.
I showed her the Dutchstar (nope), the London Aire (your kidding right?) and the King Aire (Heck NO, $700K), then I showed her the Torrey Pine, and to quote Linda Payne " I could live in this" Well that was easy :)
We have now made our first quick trip in it (600 miles) and could not have wished for more, the towing was great ,hitching up and unhooking is a non-event. Ours did not come with a generator prep but after a lot of research and recomendations, we decided for us, a pair of small honda 2000's are all we would ever need (they are still in the boxes).
Our plan is that this setup should last us at least ten years (our last one we owned for 8 years) total out of pocket for the 2008 5'ver and 2008 superduty was around $115k. The Dutchstar and a toad was going to be around $255k. This made the decision easy for us (budget) .
But it all really boils down to what you and the spouse want to live in.
-- Edited by ken and cindy at 10:54, 2007-09-04
-- Edited by ken and cindy at 11:04, 2007-09-04
First I should state that I believe we have 5 Must have features in anything we select as follows:
1) King bed - I am a big guy and I love my wife, but if we are going to live here long tern there is no flexibility on this issue, we need the room.
2) Comfortable shower - As already stated I am a big guy. I need some room in there to get clean. Usually this dictates the shower that is in the bedroom area as opposed to with the throne in a small room.
3) Computer desk - I plan to actually work in the unit. I would assume love seats can be removed and a desk added if need be, but it is a eventual must.
4) Space for the cat litter - we will take 2 cats with us. I see many people have pets so I know it is doable, I just need to ensure we have somewhere better than the living room floor for the litter box. Has anyone ever made a pass through to the basement to solve this issue? Can it be done?
5) Usable kitchen - I like to cook and expect to continue doing so. I am sure many people never use more then the refrigerator, but I plan to cook. I am a little surprised that I have yet to see a magnetic induction cook top in a MH.
After that I am open.
Darrell, thanks for the fifth wheel brand suggestions. We kind of looked at them as afterthoughts, so I have no idea what brands we saw. But I think I saw mostly lower end units. We live in a nice home that is well appointed and if I am considering this for full time living then I expect the same. It will be enough of a shock going from 3500 sq ft to a RV.
Bill, I already feel like I know you due to your posting history. I hoped you would chime in here to help with some technical stuff. I was wondering what a monocoque was and why it was good. Air bag count was another uncertainty (do these bags ever rupture?), and what was a big enough engine is another issue I had no idea how to judge. I am an engineer by degree and will strive to understand it all. How about elaborating on a tag axle. I see some units with similar carrying capacity without one, so why is it good. It looks to me like it would make the unit more stable on the road and less resistant to wind sway, but I read a post by someone who claimed a tag axle was just a substitute for putting in a properly designed axle to start with.
As to why a Motor home feels better, I suspect it is because I walk in and they have leather sofas, wood cabinets, and nice flooring. I have these things in my current home and that is what I expect will make me happy in the long run. My wife laughed when I stretched out horizontal on the sofa, but the travel supreme felt comfortable.I have yet to see a leather sofa in a fifth wheel, or even a fabric I would find acceptable. I have seen linoleum floors in them and particle board cabinets, so they have not impressed me so far. They probably have these options, but I have not seen it in my very limited looking.
By the way I like light cabinets and interiors as they make it feel roomier to me, so that will not be a problem. From pictures of the dutch star I have seen it seems they have vents in the floor down the center, are they all like that and do these ever bother you.
Your point about slides is interesting and well taken. I like them as they make the unit larger, but heck I could afford a newell without slides. Quality is very important to me so in the end I will weigh the decision. To put this in perspective, we bought a Lexus again this year without really shopping for much else. Why? Because past experience and industry surveys make me feel certain we will not have a problem with that car, and I don't think It will ever leave my wife stranded on the roadside. I know I can not afford the Lexus equivalent in a motorhome, but I want to try for it. By the way if we go with a motorhome we will probably tow that car in a trailer, so there is another requirement.
Jon, thanks. I am still confused about hot water options and what is a name brand and what is a generic type of system. Seems some use on demand heaters and others use tanks. We are only beginning the search, and we will look until we find the right unit. I think used is a good value, but the lack of slides in some units is a major functional change.
Ken, I will look hard. My wife is less picky than I on much of this stuff. I want to like the 5th since it is clear I could be close to 100K richer if we went that way, and we all know cash is king in this lifestyle. On the other hand to give it a fair chance I need something that will be comfortable to start or how will I like it in 6 months. As stated above a am a big guy (6'3" 300#) and part of changing lifestyle is a effort to reduce stress and change myself to a healtier me. But as a lifetime member of the big guy club, you have an eye for quality that most people never experience. Thinks like how much a sofa sags, or if a chair feels like a leg is going to break off if I lean the wrong way. Even how sturdy a floor feels when walking on it, or does a step have flex. On one 5th it seemed less that the step was flexing than the frame it was attached to!
Having only looked at a few places so far I am sure we will find more products to our liking, but when the salesman kicked on the generator and turned on the air conditioning in the Travel Supreme Select and as we sat and chatted comfortably, I thought "I could live here". To any salesmen reading you should take heed of that. The allegro may have been nice, but the chemical formaldehyde odor burned our eyes so bad we looked and ran out. And as for 5th's, we kept going out to talk to avoid the sweltering heat inside.
So now my next big question? We would like to rent a unit for a week or two to try out. I looked at the national agency's and they don't rent anything comparable to what I am looking at. Is there a resource where I can find private owners who rent there units? Does anyone have a friend between NYC and Wash DC who may be interested in renting a unit to us. I have found suitable rentals down south, but it seems silly to fly to the rental, and I have yet to find anything decent within reasonable distance of NJ.
Thanks for all your suggestions,
Bruce
-- Edited by brucedelta at 19:49, 2007-09-04
Note: This information is from a website no longer on the www. As a newcomer/wannabe to living the full-time RV lifestyle, I found this chart to be extremely helpful. I make no claims as to its accuracy. I am merely passing it along four your edification. The LOWER the score, the better. Approximate date of this information is October of 2006.
This table was developed as a result of in-putting hundreds, if not thousands of owner surveys.
Overall Quality Fit and Finish Buy Again
Manufacturer Manufacturer Manufacturer
1 Newmar 1.533 Country Coach 1.43 Country Coach 1.30
2 Country Coach 1.57 Beaver 1.63 Tiffin 1.56
3 Beaver 1.63 Newmar 1.66 Newmar 1.58
4 American 1.64 Tiffin 1.83 Beaver 1.67
5 Tiffin 1.76 American 1.86 Four Winds 1.75
6 Four Winds 1.88 Western 1.94 Alfa Leisure 1.85
7 Western 1.88 Four Winds 2.08 American 1.86
8 National 2.02 Winnebago 2.08 Western 1.88
9 R-Vision 2.06 Safari 2.14 R-Vision 1.89
10 Winnebago 2.06 National 2.15 Coachmen 2.08
11 Coachmen 2.08 Itasca 2.19 Safari 2.08
12 Forest River 2.09 Coachman 2.23 Damon 2.15
13 Safari 2.14 Alfa Leisure 2.25 Winnebago 2.19
14 Itasca 2.15 Forest River 2.27 Monaco 2.25
15 Fleetwood 2.16 Monaco 2.33 National 2.25
16 Monaco 2.19 Fleetwood 2.36 Fleetwood 2.30
17 Alfa Leisure 2.20 Damon 2.38 Forest River 2.32
18 Holiday Rambler 2.27 Holiday Rambler 2.41 Rexhall 2.34
19 Damon 2.33 Harney 2.42 Holiday Rambler 2.49
20 Rexhall 2.40 Rexhall 2.47 Itasca 2.62
21 Georgie Boy 2.44 R-Vision 2.50 Georgie Boy 2.93
22 Harney 2.46 Georgie Boy 2.72 Harney 3.40
Ave 2.12 2.04 2.15
Foretravel was the only manufacturer with a perfect score, earning a 1 in every category.
I hope this helps. Sorry about the formating.
George
* Monocoque and semi-monocoque explained on RVersOnline - Monocoque Chassis faqs .
* Air bags do rupture. They are very tough, but it happens. They are fixable but the ride to the repair shop is no fun, but doable.
* The vents in the floor are for the propane furnace and have not been a problem for us. Most are not “in the center”. Radiant heat is only available on some expensive rigs.
* Most RVs come with a combination electric/propane hot water heater in the 6 to 12 gallon range. They take about 20 minutes to reheat using a combination of propane and electricity. Most people run them on electricity in campgrounds and propane when dry camped or when they pay by the kilowatt for electricity.
* Most new RVs have the chemicals, the dealer should have aired the Allegro out before you tried it.
* Rental RVs are bottom of the line units that they expect to be abused.
* Computer desk options are now common on units you order. Plus there are good woodworkers by the manufacturers in Indiana and Oregon that can do great custom work.
* Towing an enclosed trailer means you need a 10,000lb hitch and the GCWR needs to be 10,000lbs higher than the GVWR. At least you will be able to back up with the trailer attached. Makes it a bit harder to stop and make a quick run to the store or to get help in the car than towing four wheels down. You might want a 500hp or larger engine.
Longer answers:
* Tag axles are needed when you need to carry more than 20,000lbs in back, which is the legal limit for one axle most places. They added them in the past on some gas motorhomes to use smaller tires. Most tags on diesels can be raised at low speeds to aid in turning sharp. There are many motorhomes out there with a tag axle that look like they have great carrying capacity, but it is not where you can put stuff since their front axles are close to the maximum. They should help your ride.
* Aqua hot and Hydro hot are both made by the company now called “Aqua hot”, the Hydro hot is smaller. They make a diesel furnace and hot water heater combination that works really well and costs $7000 to $10000 extra in a new unit. They don’t retrofit in. Every other year you have to do about some maintenance that costs about $100 in parts and a few hours labor, maybe your own. Most people are very happy with these units though some have had lemons. Some bus conversion people will use a bus diesel furnace which does not handle hot water. The Aqua hot and Hydro hots can supply continuous hot water. Since it runs on diesel these are only for diesel motorhomes.
We have been full-timing in a motorhome since July 2003. We still like it and it fits us.
We are 15 months into our full-time experience. We ended up with a new Allegro Bay. My husband likes new not only so he can get exactly what he wants, but is also able to maintain it exactly as he wants. Even the depreciation that comes with driving it off the lot is worth it to him to know its history from "conception."
In addition to everything already mentioned, cargo carrying capacity was high on our list of considerations. Many models have the storage space but not the capacity OR the capacity but not the storage space. We found a mh that provided us with both. However, there wouldn't be so many models if there weren't so many preferences!
Check out the Tiffin Phaeton 2008 models. That's a diesel with quad slides. They have a computer desk option and a nice-sized kitchen with an expand-an-island. The 40' and 42' also have a king bed option.
For ourselves, we like to park in a central location and take day trips from there. Driving a diesel truck around town or out to the boonies for sightseeing is not something we wanted to do....not only that, there's no way to "sneak" out of a campground to get an early morning start.
However, there wouldn't be so many models if there weren't so many preferences! Enjoy the hunt!
You've correctly identified the 2 seperate decisions that you need to make before finding your perfect new home.
The motor home / fifth wheel decision is the same as the stick house ranch vs colonial question. Neither one is better, they just have different positives and negatives.
The quality thing is very similar to your experience with boats, only magnified by 10. It sometimes seems that there are hundreds of brands to choose from. The problem comes for full timers in the fact that the industry caters to a customer base that is overwhelmingly made up of vacationers, who according to the RVIA, spend an average of only 31 days a year in their RV. Hence, there are a lot of attractive options to visually tempt you that probably won't stand up well to 24/7/365 usage.
Going to Hershey is about the best thing you can do to answer your ranch / colonial question. There are literally hundreds and hundreds of RV's to inspect, and you should be able to come away with a gut feel as to which you are.
The quality thing is a little bit more difficult. I would recommend finding out if any unit you're interested in is warranted for full time use, and it's carrying capacity ( after loading liquids ). You're probably going to want to add in excess of 3000#. We were suprised when we did the same as you at Hershey, how many manufacturers straight out told us their unit is not designed for full time use.
Lastly, I would join the RV Consumer Group and read their ratings on the type of RV your interested in. They represent the only independent view on the industry, similar to Consumer Reports, and will at least tell you the specific models to avoid.
Good luck, this is an exciting time.
Fred
-- Edited by Luvglass at 11:54, 2007-09-05
You mentioned used motorhomes. This website specializes only in used diesel pushers. They always seem to have a wide variety in their inventory:
http://www.dieselpushers.us
Hope all the information you are getting is helpful. Can you imagine getting this much honest input if you were looking for a used car?
George
We will be staying in Hershey Fri and Sat nights, need to book a room today as a matter of fact since my wife just got the official word she does not have to go to Europe for business that weekend.
Sandra, your friends Travel Supreme looks very nice, but I must admit to being concerned about the brand, as it seems about the top end (price wise) for non-monocoque chassis and I never see anything about them on the boards. We will see on this front.
Fox river - thanks for the chart, it is a good starting point for names, and I do like the pusher web site.
I also agree the thought of driving a diesel dually around town as a everyday car is one of the thinks that makes me believe I want a motor home with a tow behind. I am not sure if putting the IS250 in a trailer is right or we should get rid of it for a toad'able car. We like the IS and are only 6 mos into a 36 mo lease, so it would be hard to get rid of, but we will see how fast the house sells.
We had a second agent in last night who suggested a listing price $150 K more than the first, so we need to get a 3rd and fourth I think. Our home is unique and hard to comp, but the difference through me. We have a home 2 doors up that sold for $1.2M in the last 30 months and 2 doors the other way sold for $300K during that period, they are very different obviously, so it makes comps hard.
We made contact with a local RV club member who invited us to a rally this weekend, and I think we will stop by.
I already had ordered the RV consumer group package. I do wonder how they get their data, that seems far from clear to me. I mean basically how do you get samples of all these units to rate? Are they owner reported ratings, or manufacturer reported etc. How consistent are the metrics if they are owner reported? It is not mentioned on their web site, but maybe the package will provide understanding, we shall see.
I am still looking for a rental as I would like to go to NC next month in a RV.
Thank you all for your input, I appreciate the candid feedback.
PS - for those with datastorm what kinds of speeds do you get. If you have never checked the site dslreports.com has a tools section with speedtests.
-- Bruce
-- Edited by brucedelta at 15:58, 2007-09-06
I am surprised you are not seeing much on Travel Supreme since they are well liked for both their fifth wheels and motorhomes. The owners are relatives of the owners of Newmar and the factories are only a few miles apart. Travel Supreme motorhomes are all mid to high end diesels.
Since a diesel does not have much engine braking power on its own there are three methods to add braking power - exhaust brake, internal (Jake) brake, and transmission retarder. Only Foretravel uses the transmission retarder method but it is about the best and costs $20,000 extra from Allison transmission. Next best is the internal brake, known as a Jake brake. It fits inside the engine and normally has two settings. When a semi-truck brakes and makes so much noise, that is an unmuffled Jake brake. Motorhomes come with muffled Jake brakes and they are normally found in 400hp or larger motorhomes. Most motorhomes under 400hp come with exhaust brakes, normally from Pacbrake, which are external to the engine. This does the job fairly well and is what we have. Jacob, who is the company behind "Jake" also make exhaust brakes.
For satellite internet in general join the Yahoo group RVInternetBySatellite . For more Datastorm specific information join DatastormUsers .
Realize that the guy who wrote up things up on RVersOnline was the president of a Monaco club and has real biases. I know and like the guy, but he was never scared of spending money.
Bruce: I think you are going down the path of wanting the "best" of everything and not compromising. Since cost does matter you are going to have to scale something back. The guy who taught me the most about chassis construction drives a frame rail chassis since he couldn't justify the price increase or how much older a used motorhome had to be at his price point. He is happy with it and most of us with frame rail chassis are doing fine. You are doing the right thing in studying hard. I worry you will be unhappy compromising on your desires and that is not a good start for a full-timer.
The DataStorm was our one "splurge" when it came to full-timing. Since we use the web to research almost everything we do, we felt it was worth it to us to have simple, dependable access whether we're in a park or out in the boonies somewhere. We expect to boondock a lot, so it's also an "investment" in that it will let us save park fees and still have Internet access.
We're very happy that we made the decision, but as Bill says, it depends on how it fits your budget. If you're not a big Internet user or you're going to be in quality parks all the time, the "investment" may not return.
As far as performance, we consistently get over 800 kbps down and 150 kbps up. We were used to cable, and honestly, it's rare that we notice we're not on cable anymore, so for practical purposes, it's as fast as anything you'll see anywhere. We were in a park last week that had Wi-Fi, but it was only running at around 200/200, so we were really glad we had our dish!
We've also subscribed to an e-mail fax service which has been a great convenience. Having the whole system is a great convenience!
Our download rate was 827 kbps and upload was 188 kbps. We have found our speeds to be very adequate.
A Datastorm is an add-on unit.
Upload speeds vary some with Datastorm/Hughes.net with load and such. I have the newest modem and the Pro plan with my tripod system, which is same plan as Datastorm. My upload speeds vary a bit, I just ran a test using VisualWare Speed test and the numbers were 994/84.1. The speed test people all seem to like using Java for the speed tests and that is not a way to be consistent. I like real world testing and I find I can upload a 2MB webpage anywhere from about 3 minutes to 15 minutes, with 5 to 7 being normal.
If you have an aircard do not expect EVDO speeds everywhere you go, many places are at 1X. Satellite internet will beat 1X handily. If your aircard is not from Verizon or Sprint, you won't have the speed or coverage on the road you want. Most Wi-Fi systems give you speeds about like 1X.
The people I know who have both an EVDO aircard and satellite work like this:
1) Do I have EVDO or EVDO Rev A? Use the aircard.
2) I only have 1X. Use the dish unless it is difficult to find a hole to point through.
3) Only 1X, staying more than one night, and the satellite dish won't work where camped. Move.
4) No aircard internet and the satellite dish won't work where camped. Move.
I would like to see pictures of your cat arrangement. I looked at new horizon and they will be in Hershey so we will see them next weekend. Do you travel with the cats in the trailer or in your tow vehicle, and if in the trailer do you worry about it getting to hot.
I like allot of the space I see in the fifth wheels now that I looked at some of the suggested full timer brands. The part I have trouble getting my head around is not having a car. I do not think I would like to double tow as I expect to be in the east to often. On the other hand I see some of these articles about HDT tow vehicles. Many have a "condo" of some sort, has anyone ever seen the condo sacrificed for a car carrier. I see car haulers do it all the time where they have 1 or 2 on the truck and then more in a trailer. The other thought I had after looking at the new horizons layouts was using the toy hauler garage concept and making it my office when the car is not in there. Since these things seemed targeted to race cars I assume a passenger car would be OK. Oh well just thinking out loud, and I got a while to go before deciding.
I did find a local individual to rent a 40' Holiday Rambler from at a reasonable price, so we are going to do that. I also started listing my old stuff on eBay. (anyone need a laser disc player).
I am excited about Hershey as we will get out of holiday services on Friday and head right up there to stay Fri and sat night.
-- Bruce
-- Edited by brucedelta at 20:59, 2007-09-09
After a lot of thought about all these options, we decided to "travel lite" with an Arctic Fox 27-5L and a Ford F-250. Since we were moving from a 31-foot sailboat, the 27 foot fifth wheel was more space than we were used to, and we still haven't managed to fill it up. By going with a smaller fiver (GVWR 13,000) we are able to tow with a Ford F-250 diesel that gets almost 20 MPG when not towing and makes for comfortable sightseeing expeditions from base camp.
Arctic Foxes are 4-star rated by RV Consumer Group, but not listed as "full-timing" rigs. In the case of the Arctic Foxes, this has more to do with trim and polish than the underlying structure, and based on others experiences, we're confident that the rig will outlast us.
I would add... It all boils down to floor plans. Look for the plan that meets your needs. And then, sit in that floor plan for hours and mock everything you will do in it. Pretend to cook, sit in the bath, take a shower, hole up during a a couple days of rain, and on and on. Imagine - by sitting in it - what it would be like to use. Ask yourself the tough q's like where would I put such and such, how would I do my hobby, what would I change... etc... Think how you'll travel, what you'll do while on the road and the like... Then you'll get a better idea of what works ... for you!
BTW $1M is now, sadly, not even the lowest entry point for "absolute high end" MH - new at least. The top of the scale now runs up to $2.5M and starts well over $1.5M. It's hard to even find a used Prevost conversion for $1M!
We almost bought a fifth wheel, a Mobile Suites or Elite Suites. The thing that kept haunting us was the truck needed for towing this size unit. We just could never get a comfort zone with the size truck we would have to purchase and would become our transportation when parked somewhere. Everyone should read the article in www.dmbruss.com. Go to the sidebar marked "safety" and read the article called "a sad story." It is an eye opener. We just didn't want to drive a big truck. The weight was always an issue for us.
Many new floorplans in motorhomes now offer the living area in a different location and thus the TV is no longer always up front. These are not always the high end motorhomes either. I think the motorhome industry is trying to give the consumer more options. I know the kingsize bed is more common in a fifth wheel but there are some motorhomes that have those also.
The bottom line is that this issue is personal. A pro for me may be a con for someone else. It is not an easy decision, if it were, there wouldn't be so much discussion on it.
Good luck on your search. It is an important decision for you and your wife and one that you have to be happy with and live with. It is really no different than searching for a sticks and bricks. There are millions of different houses with different floorplans in different locations. Our house will sell when someone comes through and we have what they are looking for.
We are all still full-timers and that is what matters most.
Frankly, my search BEGAN not with floor plan, brand, or style but with how can I carry the loads I expected to carry. For me, that parameter alone established what I had to have.
The whole weight/load/sizing topic is typically a very emotional one - and I certainly do not want to start any debate here. Yet, it is so simple and factual as you simply match the numbers on the labels and the scale and err on the side of overcapacity. The emotion must come in when people go over and fail to do the difficult things of reduce or upgrade.
Beaver is rarely mentioned on this forum but look at the "fit and finish chart" and find that Beaver and Safari do well. Beaver had 8 bags and a "Jake Brake" in '98, I have one. Look at a 5 year old Beaver, you will be surprised.
Safari (Magnum Chassis) built the chassis for Safari and Beaver until about 2002 when they were acquired by Monaco. Alpine does their own chassis as does Country Coach and current diesel powered Monaco brands. Western RV ( Dolphin and Tradewinds/Islander) also build their own. Most diesel coaches have some pass through basement storage.
Initial fit and finish is very important but even more so is manufacturer warranty and service. I would consider that a major fraction of the decision. While most major brands do pretty well in this department I quit looking at a couple of brands after reading the dis-satisfaction of their current owners. Check with owners and see how well they support the "previously loved" coaches.
Seriously consider a used coach, no sense in losing the big bucks in depreciation. You can also thank the first owner for getting the bugs out. A king bed and computer desk are easily added.
Mike
We used to own a 2002 Dolphin on a Workhorse chassis and were very involved with the owners club. Some very good friends own a 2003 Islander. We came close to buying a 2005 Alpine. You are not going to find air bags on a gas motorhome and on a front engine diesel except as after market installs. There are still ways to improve the ride on those without using air bags.
When you discuss Monaco and Country Coach you have to differentiate between their low end diesels and the high end. A Monaco Dynasty (higher end) is a lot different than a Monaco Knight (low end), including the equivalent Holiday Rambler, Safari and Beaver versions. A Country Coach Allure (low end) is a lot different than a Magma (higher end). The chassis, the features, the options, all change between the low and high end.